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czozocoyote
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Posted: 6/9/2009 1:44:42 AM
In the civilian market, is there really such a thing as Mil Spec? I was in the Marine Corp for 9 years and carried an M16A2 rifle which was obviously Mil Spec and I never had a problem with it. I am now in the market for my first AR15, but I want one that has a flat top and flip up front and rear sights because I am gonna mount an Eotech 511 on it when I get it and I want it as close to Mil Spec as I can get. Is it possible to get the rifle I want for $1500 or less? And what about brands? Are there brands I should definately stay away from? Accuracy, functionality, and reliability are paramount. Any input you guys can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
N2CH_556
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Posted: 6/9/2009 2:04:47 AM
Welcome.

Tons of threads and arguments on this.

First read this: So You Want to Buy an AR-15 - Features to Consider

Consensus is, it's not milspec unless it has burst/auto capability and you carry it for Uncle Sam.

There are those that come close to "milspec" or the TDP, such as a Colt 6920 (except this has a 16" barrel instead of 14.5" and is semi instead of selective fire.)

There are those that go beyond and are arguable better than just "milspec", such as a Noveske or LaRue.

Many are below the so-called "milspec" and cut corners here and there to save money, time, and labor which may or may not ever effect reliability, accuracy, quality, but you get what you pay for and you should be fully aware of the caveats. (This is the route I went, but it's fine for my needs... )

In the end, its up to you to determine your mission and the appropriate tools for your application. Good luck.

My personal recommendation: Go ahead and get a Colt 6920 ***or*** order a BCM lower from Denny's Guns and mate it with a BCM 16" Middy (or 16" M4) upper in the few hours they become available every once in a while. Plenty of other great options out there, too: http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/New_Long_Guns.html just do your research and keep looking around.

Good luck.
[URL=http://www.vcdl.org/]www.VCDL.org/[/URL]
myitinaw
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Posted: 6/9/2009 2:04:59 AM


A socialist may indeed be academically superior, And yet, most certainly emotionally retarded…
myitinaw 2006
echo_tango
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Posted: 6/9/2009 2:09:04 AM
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 2:12:53 AM by echo_tango]
The big dirty secret about AR-15's is that the vast majority of lowers all come outta the same factory; just stamped differently.

Personally; I think that the whole mil-spec thing is a joke. After all the issue stuff I was issued broke or was ditched because it was useless (3x mag shingles!!! MOLLE rucksacks!!! who designs / approves this bullshit?) I supplemented / replaced it with civvie-spec stuff that I wont destroy in a couple months of patrolling / hard use.

edited to add:
If you want a NICE AR-15 look to Noveske, LaRue, Sabre Defense. I've got Smith and Wesson M&P's that I like so far and a stag arms upper I traded away, but would buy from the manufacturer again. The whole southpaw thing was a good idea for a civilian only usage, but I like to train how I fight and I just need to be accustomed to being a southpaw in a right handed DoD. Quality construction though. The big problem was that you really cant gunsmith a lefty upper receiver because you can't find a receiver block for it to wrench on it e.g. install a free float rail system / swap barrels whatever.
czozocoyote
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Posted: 6/9/2009 6:25:31 AM
myitinaw, evidently you didn't like my question. Just look up to the right corner of your monitor screen. See the red "x". Nuff said.
nicholsmf
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Posted: 6/9/2009 7:06:16 AM
Originally Posted By czozocoyote:
myitinaw, evidently you didn't like my question. Just look up to the right corner of your monitor screen. See the red "x". Nuff said.


Everybody needs something to believe in. I believe I will have another beer.
albatrossarmament
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Posted: 6/9/2009 7:39:58 AM
CZO, the problem is you are getting away from Mil-Spec by wanting the flip up front sight. You are right in that the only real mil-spec available to you is from Uncle Sam. As a civilian, you can only get so close. You could buy a full auto, but those wont even be current mil-spec, but rather superceded mil-spec.
I know what you are asking, but putting too much concentration on Mil-Spec will only lead you astray. Buy a QUALITY weapon from a REPUTABLE manufacturer in the configuration that you think will best fit your needs, and you will be happy.
EWP
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Posted: 6/9/2009 7:52:49 AM
Saber Defense makes a pretty Mil-spec rifle, all but barrel length (which you can have if you want to pay the extra $ and paper work) and auto fire is different, unlike colt which has parts of the receiver blocked off and other things of that nature. I do have a 6920 myself so Colt is GTG but there are just as good rifles to be had.
oneshot_onekill
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Posted: 6/9/2009 8:07:34 AM
MIL-SPEC... Blah... Blah...Blah. I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death on this and a great many other forums. In the REAL world (not the over 40, mid-life crisis, beer belly, too much time on my hands world of many of us who post on these forums... myself included!) MIL-SPEC simply means "Built with parts that are to Military Specifications". This term is used so you will know that the hammer from one rifle will fit another, the upper from one rifle will drop onto another and work. To say that an AR15 is NOT to Mil-Spec because it's not "full-auto" makes me laugh at the ass-clown who said it! It's dimensions and materials... that's all!

Being a 9 year Marine you know your rifle is a is "as a brother", and when it breaks you want parts to be readily available. If a maker advertises "Mil-Spec" you're probably Good-to-go. Personally, I and most friends of mine (one of which is an "active-duty" SEAL) have taken a particular liking to SPIKES TACTICAL. We like their sense of humor when it comes to those "Nappy-headed little Poop-smears" over in Iraq and Afghanistan... and the rifles ARE Mil-Spec!!!

End of Rant...

Semper-Fi!
STJ
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Posted: 6/9/2009 8:10:51 AM
Get a Colt...Pretty dam close to 'Mil-Spec....Your not going to get any closer, plus they are selling for $1300 now.

Now there are better ARs out there..well better barrels at least. The only real improvement over a Colt would be a Noveske barrel or possibly a mid length gas setup made with the proper steel and HP MPI tested...IE BCM
ACOGless
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Posted: 6/9/2009 8:31:06 AM
Originally Posted By nicholsmf:
Originally Posted By czozocoyote:
myitinaw, evidently you didn't like my question. Just look up to the right corner of your monitor screen. See the red "x". Nuff said.


http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q287/nicholsmf/Picture1-1.jpg


Too tight? You could park a jumbo fucking jet in there!
oneshot_onekill
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Posted: 6/9/2009 8:59:28 AM
Originally Posted By STJ:
Get a Colt...Pretty dam close to 'Mil-Spec....Your not going to get any closer, plus they are selling for $1300 now.

Now there are better ARs out there..well better barrels at least. The only real improvement over a Colt would be a Noveske barrel or possibly a mid length gas setup made with the proper steel and HP MPI tested...IE BCM

For God's sake man!... Don't Get the Colt!!! Just kiddin'. Colts are fine. Not the best... but fine. They're probably the closest thing to Mil-Spec but there are makers out there who have made improvements without straying too far from Mil-spec. I like the Gas-piston concept. Several makers offer it now. Also, Melonite as a replacement for chrome to make parts last longer. At least take a look at SPIKES TACTICAL... and POF.

czozocoyote
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Posted: 6/9/2009 9:36:23 AM
oneshot_onekill- I agree with what you said and perhaps I didn't make myself as clear as I could have in my original post. What I am after is a rifle, from a manufacturer, that has flat top ( so I can mount an Eotech 511 without interference from a front sight post ) , with front and rear flip up sights, for $1500 or less. But I am also wanting a quality firearm that won't bail on me in a pinch. Should be easy enough but I am totally un-familiar with manufacturers so was seeking a little guidance. Don't want to shell out big bucks for a piece of sh-t.
nicholsmf
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Posted: 6/9/2009 10:09:46 AM
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 10:11:37 AM by nicholsmf]
Originally Posted By czozocoyote:
oneshot_onekill- I agree with what you said and perhaps I didn't make myself as clear as I could have in my original post. What I am after is a rifle, from a manufacturer, that has flat top ( so I can mount an Eotech 511 without interference from a front sight post ) , with front and rear flip up sights, for $1500 or less. But I am also wanting a quality firearm that won't bail on me in a pinch. Should be easy enough but I am totally un-familiar with manufacturers so was seeking a little guidance. Don't want to shell out big bucks for a piece of sh-t.


I would try to catch a Bravo Company upper when they are in stock and then pick up any forged lower available from a site sponsor.

A lower is a lower and an upper is an upper (for the most part). Your quality comes from the barrel and BCG. The Bravo Co. upper has a FSB but I wouldn't rule out a FSB because of the Eotech. I have a few uppers with FSBs and Eotech on LaRue mounts, the lower 1/3 cowitness is ideal in my opinion.

Just my $0.02
Everybody needs something to believe in. I believe I will have another beer.
oneshot_onekill
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Posted: 6/9/2009 2:57:56 PM
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 3:07:39 PM by oneshot_onekill]
Originally Posted By czozocoyote:
oneshot_onekill- I agree with what you said and perhaps I didn't make myself as clear as I could have in my original post. What I am after is a rifle, from a manufacturer, that has flat top ( so I can mount an Eotech 511 without interference from a front sight post ) , with front and rear flip up sights, for $1500 or less. But I am also wanting a quality firearm that won't bail on me in a pinch. Should be easy enough but I am totally un-familiar with manufacturers so was seeking a little guidance. Don't want to shell out big bucks for a piece of sh-t.

Get ahold of Spikes. They have some really nice stuff. Not sure what's in-stock now but when I was there recently they had plenty of lowers @ $179.00, parts kit are less than $100.00, collapsable stock should be less than $100.00 for generic, and a VERY NICE Direct Impingement Flat-top complete upper with a 1:7" twist barrel for $725.00. That's only around $1100 and they're as nice as anything I've seen! The barrels are Melonite coated, inside and out. So is the BCG I believe. You can spend whatever you want on BUS. I don't think the website is up to date with some of what I just told you but it's true. I just saw it all! BTW: I bought a Gas-Piston upper while I was there. It's more expensive but I think it was worth it! I'll post a picture of mine ASAP.

Semper-Fi

John

oneshot_onekill
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Posted: 6/9/2009 3:05:11 PM
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 3:05:58 PM by oneshot_onekill]
This is the Spike's Gas-Piston Rifle I just put together last weekend. The rails and BUS were extra... and I've since moved the front sight off the gas-block.
http://i44.tinypic.com/ibwbw9.jpg
czozocoyote
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Posted: 6/10/2009 1:18:31 AM
WOW !! That is a thing of beauty. Just what I am after. Couple of questions tho. What gas block came with it, and what is Melonite? Not familiar with that. Thanks. And congrats on your new piece.
platypusREX
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Posted: 6/10/2009 2:31:02 AM
Originally Posted By nicholsmf:
Originally Posted By czozocoyote:
myitinaw, evidently you didn't like my question. Just look up to the right corner of your monitor screen. See the red "x". Nuff said.


http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q287/nicholsmf/Picture1-1.jpg


Two drops of pee leaked out of me, I laughed so hard.
nicholsmf
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Posted: 6/10/2009 9:05:50 AM
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 9:27:10 AM by nicholsmf]
Originally Posted By czozocoyote:
WOW !! That is a thing of beauty. Just what I am after. Couple of questions tho. What gas block came with it, and what is Melonite? Not familiar with that. Thanks. And congrats on your new piece.


oneshot_onekill will chime in if my parts list is wrong, but here is what I see in the pic. The upper in the picture is a piston conversion, not DI. The gas block is Adams Arms as seen below.



That upper is $1095 and can be found here

A complete Spikes lower like in the pic is $340.00 and can be found here

The Daniel Defense Omega Rail in the pic is $246.00 and can be found here

The rear MAGPUL MBUS sight is $55.05 and can be found here

The front MAGPUL MBUS is $37.95 and can be found here

So a total would be $1774 plus shipping, transfer and Eotech (unless you already have the Eotech

As for Melonite, the below was quoted from website of a firearm refinisher:

Melonite QPQ™ is a thermochemical process (ferritic nitrocarburizing) used for the case hardening of iron-based metals. In a molten bath of special salts, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating a super-hard surface, called the "compound layer." Additionally, small amounts of carbon are pulled from within the substrate, toward the surface, creating a "diffusion zone," which exhibits a gradient of concentration of carbon and nitrogen, decreasing toward the core. Thus, the process provides both a hardening of the surface, and a gradient alloying of the substrate, which improves the ductility and overall strength of the material.

Melonite QPQ™ can be used on both carbon steel and stainless steel. Melonized steel gun parts will be blue-black in color, and will exhibit surface hardness in the area of RC70, lower coefficient of friction/enhanced surface lubricity, superior running wear performance, superior sliding wear resistance, superior heat resistance, and superior corrosion resistance. The treatment penetrates to a depth of ~.004" to .008," with surface dimensional growth of only .0002" to .0004"(negligible), so post-treatment fitting is not a concern. Final appearance of the surface is dependent on the type of surface prep used, with surfaces tending to appear a bit smoother than before treatment. Thus, surfaces prepared via our preferred method of aluminum oxide blasting, which have a matte appearance, bear a smoother, yet non-reflective, satin post-treatment appearance. Polished surfaces tend to retain approximately the surface appearance they had prior to treatment. For those who love the look of a "tactical" black finish, Melonite QPQ™ is, without doubt, the best practical surface treatment available for firearms today.



Just my $0.02 but I would read up on the gas piston system before you waste your money on it. By "waste" I am not saying it is bad, I am simply saying that it is not better than a DI system in any manner that warrants the additional cost over a DI system. The upper pictured above is not a dedicated piston upper, it is a conversion.

For $657.90 you can get yourself a Bravo Company 16" Carbine upper with a Bravo Company BCG and CMT charging handle. The Bravo Company upper is, in my opinion, the absolute best bang for the buck upper available and you are sacrificing absolutely nothing with the Bravo Company upper, it is pure quality. Going with the Bravo Company upper over the the piston upper over you will save $437.10 and lose nothing except maybe a little ease of cleaning. With the $437.10 you saved, you can buy a complete lower and iron sights, possibly more depending on your vendor of choice.

Just my $0.02
Everybody needs something to believe in. I believe I will have another beer.
c5hardtop
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Posted: 6/10/2009 9:32:47 AM
Our department just ordered NEW Colt M4s (Full AUTOs), they are legal for us and we paid $780ish each for them. I wonder if they would be $500-600 better than a DPMS or any Kit build? I assumed this was standard LE price for them, we evaluated these and Sig 556 Autos, they are replacing some older M16s and MP5s in the field. Civilain Colt ARs seem very overpriced (or priced higher more b/c of the name on the side of them than anything real) unless there is something about them that is HUGE upgrade over the REAL M16/M4s they are selling to LE/Military.
oneshot_onekill
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Posted: 6/10/2009 9:36:36 AM
Yep... You nailed it! Like I said, the Gas-piston upper was more expensive and the DD Omega rail also, but I thought it was worth the price difference and I wanted something with a little more Pizzazz. I probably didn't need to spend the extra $$ but I had it... and it beats spending it on anything else. IMO
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Posted: 6/10/2009 9:38:31 AM
Originally Posted By czozocoyote:
In the civilian market, is there really such a thing as Mil Spec? I was in the Marine Corp for 9 years and carried an M16A2 rifle which was obviously Mil Spec and I never had a problem with it.

Before I got off Active Duty in Corps, I did a stint as the HHQ Information Systems O, I got a budget to buy computers for the rest of the Air Group (Regiment). I soon found out how messed up it is to buy anything in the Military, the first couple of things I ordered through the normal open purchase system, I got something totally different. If I ordered a monitor, I got a monitor, but it was a different brand, a different size, different resolution than what I bought. I'd call the people responsible and they would quote me a dozen regs and directions they had to abide by, either passed down by Congress for their own political concerns, or courts from people suing the government or Regs designed to prevent the past cases of corruption and nepotism, etc.

I soon found, the way to play the game was to make a list of Specs of What I Required for the equipment I ordered, it didn't matter how the purchasing agents switched around brands or people to order from to meet their regs, if I made my Specs thorough enough, I got what I wanted, if I didn't I could find something in the specs that they failed to meet and they would send it all back and get me what I wanted.

That is Mil-Spec in Microcosm, it just micro-manages the contractors and suppliers to the military to make sure they give them the quality they want OR they send it back and they don't get paid.

Civilian companies abuse the term Mil-Spec, using it to mean the part is interchangeable or from the same drawing as the military part, which is NOT what Mil-Spec means. So, when you see Mil-Spec in the civilian market, its often a worthless advertising ploy.

The long list of specs can be good and bad, they force bad lowest quality bidders to NOT cut corners and supply a quality product, but they also force good quality bidders into following a cookie cutter method, when they have better ideas or new process's that could make better quality at a lower price.

As well, for a civilian AR, its a perfectly valid argument that you do NOT need some of the additional quality process's for a semi-auto range rifle as you do a full auto (burst) assault weapon that needs to be life over death reliable in the far harsher combat environment and extended use in the field exposed to the weather and elements 10 times more than most civilian rifles.
oneshot_onekill
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Posted: 6/10/2009 11:19:57 AM
Very well put... That's the way I remember it to be back in the early 80's when I was in. That's also why the COLT AR15 or COLT variations of it are not necessarily the BEST out there. I liked the Melonite Barrel and BCG as well as the Adams Gas-Piston add-on that Spikes did. To me they were "improvements" over "Mil-Spec" without changing the specs on most parts. True, the gas-piston option is radically different than Direct Impingement but I considered that... and I believe you can go back by just replacing a few parts... Mil-Spec parts.

I think if I were just getting myself an AR for the sake of having an AR and familiarity because of Military experience, it would not have a Gas-piston upper.
nicholsmf
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Posted: 6/10/2009 6:55:54 PM
Originally Posted By oneshot_onekill:
Yep... You nailed it! Like I said, the Gas-piston upper was more expensive and the DD Omega rail also, but I thought it was worth the price difference and I wanted something with a little more Pizzazz. I probably didn't need to spend the extra $$ but I had it... and it beats spending it on anything else. IMO


Nothing wrong with wanting "a little more Pizzazz" I certainly don't "NEED" the thousands of dollars of LaRue Tactical rails and mounts because I am not LEO / Infantry etc etc, but I wanted the absolute best I could get. Some people like fancy cars or expensive wines........me I like AR-15s and I love LaRue Tactical gear, the best of the best in my opinion.
Everybody needs something to believe in. I believe I will have another beer.
jimr
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Posted: 6/10/2009 7:04:45 PM
mill-spec,dosen't that mean that the parts the military use will fit another firearm like,BM,RRA or any other lower. not the auto sear,though, unless you pay the price to be legal.
bdawg998
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Posted: 6/10/2009 8:00:33 PM
Something similar to the one on top what you're wanting to build?? Though my EOTech is a 512. Its a YHM rifle length rail on a 16" barrel. The sites are Troy Industries. I would definitely say I've got less than $1500 in this rifle, including the EOTech.

Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
She drove past, backed up, ran over and did cookies on 'flirty' when she let her hair down, dropped her drawers, smiled suggestively and stuck her panty-clad ass in my direction
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