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Sabre223
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Posted: 2/15/2009 11:18:59 PM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
Originally Posted By js308:
The funny thing about that interview with Knight is that Colt defense said the same exact thing. What do know, Colt just released their new piston driven carbine. I think Knight was saying that because he doesn't have one one the market.
I abused my LMT piston AR pretty bad. Never had anything break.


What piston gun did Colt just release? I'd like to get one!
steve-oh
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Posted: 2/16/2009 4:19:28 AM
I was busting up laughing when my buddy kept taking out his LWRC bolt carrier after shooting a few rounds. "See that dude? Still cool to the touch! I can touch it."
Read the nametag. You're in my world now grandma.
js308
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Posted: 2/16/2009 4:20:34 AM
[Last Edit: 2/16/2009 4:23:58 AM by js308]
Originally Posted By Sabre223:
Originally Posted By js308:
The funny thing about that interview with Knight is that Colt defense said the same exact thing. What do know, Colt just released their new piston driven carbine. I think Knight was saying that because he doesn't have one one the market.
I abused my LMT piston AR pretty bad. Never had anything break.


What piston gun did Colt just release? I'd like to get one!


It's called the Colt APC which stands for Advanced Piston Carbine.

Link: http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1184
vicious_cb
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Posted: 2/16/2009 6:57:18 AM
If you think Knights doesnt have piston guns think again, Both the knights PDW and Stoner LMG are piston operated.

ARs should be kept DI. If you want a piston go to another platform that was designed for piston operation from the start.
LockingBlock
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Posted: 2/16/2009 7:23:07 AM
The people that shoot the most in the US Mil...and who can have whatever long gun they choose, have chosen an HK 416.

These are the same folks that were going through a bolt and barrel a week in a training cycle on DI guns...

That says a lot about properly made piston guns.
shrikefan
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Posted: 2/16/2009 7:34:11 AM
OK I'll play.

I do not know all of the specifics of all the AR type piston set-ups out there.

The idealist piston set-up in the AR platform would be one similar to the ZM with the majority of the mass in the operating/guide rod. Imagine combining the Sig 556 operating system in the AR platform. Shouldn't be too hard.

My $.02, YMMV, IMO, etc., blah, yada...

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Indrid-Cold
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Posted: 2/16/2009 7:41:57 AM
I like the benefits a GP design brings to the table.

Maybe someday I will have one from LMT.

Parts for DI systems, while becoming expensive are still widely available.

When the inevitable GP part breaks or is lost, most offerings have just one source for replacement.

Hats off to the early adopters, but I think I'll wait till greater market penetration has occurred.

Just my 2 cents.
Shawnmt6601
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Posted: 2/16/2009 7:42:44 AM
[Last Edit: 2/16/2009 7:46:04 AM by Shawnmt6601]
Originally Posted By js308:
The funny thing about that interview with Knight is that Colt defense said the same exact thing. What do know, Colt just released their new piston driven carbine. I think Knight was saying that because he doesn't have one one the market.
I abused my LMT piston AR pretty bad. Never had anything break.





that is funny because its not true, colt has no piston rifle, the 6940 is DI and thr APC is a hybrid tat still has a DI operation in it.

I dont understand why people will trust something 2 or 3 years old more than something that has been around and worked for over 40. Piston may well be a good system, but I wont buy one for at least 10 years of seeing a piston AR15 type used in combat
Picking up a Colt 1911 is like shaking hands with an old friend

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coldair
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Posted: 2/16/2009 7:53:01 AM
if colt is not making a piston rifle what the heck is the colt APC
Click To View Spoiler


By David Crane
defrev at gmail.com
All of the photos contained in this article, with the exception of the first/top photo, were taken by Chen Lee a.k.a. "SMGLee" at the 2008 AUSA Annual Meeting and Exhibition, and he owns the copyright on these photos. Colt Defense, LLC provided the first/top photo.

October 10, 2008

While I was visiting with Colt Defense personnel at Colt headquarters, one of the weapons they showed me and allowed me to test-fire was a 10.3"-barreled M4 CQBR/PDW-type 5.56x45mm NATO (5.56mm NATO) /.223 Rem. select-fire SBR/subcarbine called the Colt Sub-Compact Weapon a.k.a. Colt SCW (or, as I like to call it––and the Colt APC, both––the "HK416 Killer", or just "416 Killer" for short). The SCW is designed specifically for CQB/CQC in confined spaces like buildings and small dwellings in urban warfare environments, vehicle deployment during security operations (i.e. PSD ops), and any other operation where a compact 5.56 weapon is the optimal solution, while still allowing the operator to effectively engage medium-range targets, as required. In addition to the shorty barrel, the SCW sports an interesting and unique side-folding/telescoping a.k.a. folding/collapsible buttstock that reduces overal (OA) weapon length even further during transport. This makes the SCW the most compact of all of Colt Defense's shoulder weapons/long guns.

The end-user can choose from three different operating systems:...



1) An Upgraded Direct Gas Impingement System, which incorporates Colt's proprietary gas regulator sleeve a.k.a. gas impingement sleeve (patent pending) that fits into the front sight and is designed to eliminate the negative effects of gas port erosion on cyclic rate/ROF over the life cycle of the weapon system while simultaneously increasing weapon reliability and durability.
2) The Colt Piston System (CPS), which is a gas piston/op-rod-driven system that was originally designed and developed specifically for the new Colt Advanced Piston Carbine (APC), which DefenseReview will be covering later. The Colt Piston System seemingly capitalizes on the lessons learned from the Colt M5 and Colt LE1020 projects, and uniquely utilizes an articulating-link piston (ALP) system that's designed to reduce operating stresses on crtical weapon components, and thus solve a problem that is inherent in competing piston-driven systems like the HK416 (HK 416), LWRC M6A2, etc. The Colt articulating link piston operating system is also supposed to increase the weapon's accuracy and ease piston/op-rod removal for weapon cleaning and maintenance. During my visit and firing session, I asked Phil Hinckley, Executive Director of Quality and Engineering at Colt Defense LLC, if the Colt Piston System is "bulletproof", i.e. perfected and totally reliable under adverse conditions and high round count, and Mr. Hinckley assured me that it was.


3) The Colt Advanced Hybrid System (AHS), which is perhaps the most interesting and fascinating system, for it combines Colt's upgraded direct-gas-impingement system with its advanced piston operating system. It's DefenseReview's understanding at present that the Advanced Hybrid System, originally designed and developed for the Colt Advanced Hybrid Carbine (AHC), utilizes both the aforementioned gas regulator sleeve in the upgraded/product-improved direct-gas-impingement (DGI) portion of the system and the articulating link piston on the piston portion of the system. We'll try to get verification on this point.

The end-user also has receiver configuration and barrel choices. He can have Colt's patented Mil-Std-1913 "Picatinny" monolithic upper receiver or a standard Mil-Std-1913 flat-top upper receiver with separate handguard (quad) rail system/forend rail tube. He can also choose between a button-rifled or cold-hammer-forged barrel, either of which can exceed 15,000 rounds before replacement.


Additional features Colt SCW features are:

- "Bolt Carrier Buffer System" that attenuates/mitigates recoil and barrel climb and thus improves full-auto controllability and results in more hits on target. I could go into more detail about how this feature works, but I won't until and unless I receive clearance from Colt Defense. Let's just say that components of this buffer system have been tested in excess of 36,000 rounds on multiple units, and the system allows for a shorter receiver extension tube (3.25" long) that allows the utilization of a folding/telescoping a.k.a. folding/collapsible buttstock.

- New Cam Pin Protector that "eliminates damage to the upper receiver cam pin slot inherent in other piston designs."

- New "Pivot Forward" Extractor that improves grip on the cartridge case during hard extraction, particularly during full-auto fire. This is a crucial and welcome component, for all AR-based carbines and subcarbines in the U.S. military inventory, including the Colt M4 Carbine, M4A1 Carbine, Colt M4 Commando (11.5") and Colt-based M4 CQBR (10.5").

- Enhanced Dust Cover "Wiper" (patent pending) which obviates the need for a traditional manual dust cover (a.k.a. ejection port cover), except perhaps for a training situation where the user might want to walk around with a cleared weapon where the bolt carrier group is locked to the rear and the (traditional manual) ejection port cover is closed over the open ejection port to keep out foreign debris. I could describe the Enhanced Dust Cover Wiper automatic ejection port cover in more detail (because I've actually seen it and touched it), but we'll check with Colt Defense personnel to make sure we're cleared to do so.

- Side-Folding/Telescoping Quick-Detach Buttstock Assembly, which is pretty slick. I examined and utilized this component during my visit, which included a firing session.

- Optional Titanium Folding Front Sight/BUIS that, due to it's lightweight (or, at least, lighter-weight) nature, reduces weight on the barrel and thus increases accuracy and zero retention.

- Optional Colt Grip Laser (CGL) vertical foregrip with integral white light and visible laser. The laser has two modes: pulse mode and constant laser mode.

- Multi-Functional Holster, Sling and Magazine/Accessory Pouch that "provides the user rapid access to weapon from seated, standing or prone position."

As I alluded to at the beginning of this piece, I got to test-fire the SCW among several other Colt Defense weapons, but while I got to test it on full-auto, I was only able to put a few magazines through it. I didn't get to run the SCW through the proverbial ringer under adverse conditions and high round count like the U.S. military inevitably will. I was able to control the weapon on full-auto, although it had a higher cyclic rate/ROF than theFERFRANS Specialties SOAR 10.5" SBRs (DGI and gas piston). I'd have to run the Colt SCW and FERFRANS SOAR 10.5" SBRs side by side to see which allowed more hits on target while firing full-auto strings.

It would be interesting to see how Colt Defense's various select-fire/full-auto military offerings, including the SCW, would perform if they integrated FERFRANS Specialties' patented Rate Reduction System (RRS), as it would simultaneously make all the weapons more controllable on full-auto (increasing hits on target) and enhance reliability, durability and weapon longevity by reducing heat and stress on crucial weapon components. Understand that the RRS operates outside of the weapon's gas system. So, while the RRS reduces cyclic rate/ROF to the sub-700 RPM range (approx. 625-675 RPM), according to Ferdie Sy, President/CEO of FERFRANS Specialties, the RRS does not reduce weapon reliability in the slightest.

Without shooting the weapons side by side, and just going on memory, I'd have to give the FERFRANS SBRs the edge over the Colt SBRs (10.3" and 11.5" barrels) for hits on target during full-auto fire, due to their (SOAR SBRs) employment of the RRS. In my opinion, the FERFRANS RRS would give Colt 5.56mm weapons an even greater edge over their competitors in the military and law enforcement arenas.

As it stands, however, the Colt SCW (Sub-Compact Weapon) provides the end-user with an unprecedented and perhaps even unmatchable amount of options in a subcompact 5.56mm tactical AR weapon system, particularly with regard to operating systems and upper receiver configurations, before you even get to the folding/telescoping buttstock, barrel options, and plethora of available features. It's a really sweet little package, and is going to be tough for Colt's competitors to beat––real tough––provided it lives up to the hype. I mean, if it does, who needs a 416 (HK 416), now?

I've shot the 416 AND the SCW, and I'd rather have one of these (Colt SCW) or a shorty 10.3-12.5"-barreled Colt APC (Advanced Piston Carbine) with an RRS in it, if possible, of course.

And, the kicker is, the Colt SCW will be made right here in America by Americans who work for an old and historic American company, not a German company. America first.

Author's Note: DefenseReview is interested to see how the Colt SCW performs with 70-77gr 5.56mm ammo out to medium distance (300-500 yards) with regard to accuracy and terminal ballistics. It would also be interesting to see how a 6.8x43mm SPC (a.k.a. 6.8mm SPC a.k.a. 6.8 SPC) version of the SCW might perform against soft and hard targets at CQB/CQC and medium ranges.




Photo Credits: Colt Defense, LLC and Chen Lee a.k.a. "SMGLee". Notice the MagPul PMAG in the SCW's magwell in Chen's pics.



Company Contact Info:


Colt Defense LLC
547 New Park Ave
West Hartford, CT, 06110
800-241-2485 Toll Free
860-232-4489 Office
860-244-1442 Fax
http://www.colt.com/mil/home.asp Website

Shame alert! this so called Stimulus bill only has 10% of the money going to create jobs the rest is payback and Pork call your senator and tell him to vote NO(202) 224-3121
allester666
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Posted: 2/16/2009 7:54:14 AM
My M4 took a shit on me twice, once when it didnt matter (qualification range; barrel came loose) and once when it really did count on mission in Iraq (bent gas rings). Any one sticking with DI should add a set of new gas rings to there kit/repair parts. 7 cents that stopped my rifle when i needed it. Not cool. I have a piston gun now, POF design. No gas rings, but there may be some truth to premature wear of the upper time will tell.

DI is good but keep spare gas rings/bolt on hand

Pistons rule.
jaygee
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Posted: 2/16/2009 8:48:46 AM
We donn need no steeeking peestons!
coldair
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Posted: 2/16/2009 9:08:08 AM
as long as we keeps our weepons berry klean, which is easy to do in a desert or in mud
Originally Posted By jaygee:
We donn need no steeeking peestons!


Shame alert! this so called Stimulus bill only has 10% of the money going to create jobs the rest is payback and Pork call your senator and tell him to vote NO(202) 224-3121
Strongbow
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Posted: 2/16/2009 9:08:12 AM
Originally Posted By KELBEAST:
I'm sticking with DI.... BUT! The forward pressure on the bolt doesn't occur until the bullet has already passed the gas port.


Correct, but I think his point was that the bolt is being pushed forward while the carrier is pushed backward at first (until the cam has rotated the bolt out of battery), which would reduce the stress on the lugs.

arowneragain
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Posted: 2/16/2009 9:37:21 AM
Originally Posted By allester666:
My M4 took a shit on me twice, once when it didnt matter (qualification range; barrel came loose) and once when it really did count on mission in Iraq (bent gas rings). Any one sticking with DI should add a set of new gas rings to there kit/repair parts. 7 cents that stopped my rifle when i needed it. Not cool. I have a piston gun now, POF design. No gas rings, but there may be some truth to premature wear of the upper time will tell.

DI is good but keep spare gas rings/bolt on hand

Pistons rule.


I'm not questioning your experience here, but that's the first I've ever heard about bent gas rings. How do you bend the gas rings?
...But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay...All my familiars watched for my halting...But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one...

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chopper7
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Posted: 2/16/2009 9:39:19 AM
Less is more. Stoner knew what he was doing.
LockingBlock
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Posted: 2/16/2009 10:29:07 AM
Originally Posted By chopper7:
Less is more. Stoner knew what he was doing.




Stoner designed a 20 inch gun with a rifle length gas tube.

The M-4 is a very different beast. The MK 18 even more so...

I don't think anyone is complaining about 20 systems being non functional...but they are like muskets. You need a carbine and when you get into short barrels with DI systems, you get short service lives and extraction problems. It is the realiy of a DI system.

For what it was designed to do in a 20 inch gun, DI is great...but we aren't using 20 inch guns.
Bear_Totem
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Posted: 2/16/2009 10:43:17 AM
We? Im curious now. Marines what do they use mostly M16 or m4s? Army units?
IS there a break down?
Btw Im a 20 inch barrel fan.
coldair
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Posted: 2/16/2009 10:46:01 AM
the model T Ford is a great car there is no reason to drive anything else
Shame alert! this so called Stimulus bill only has 10% of the money going to create jobs the rest is payback and Pork call your senator and tell him to vote NO(202) 224-3121
R0N
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Posted: 2/16/2009 10:49:18 AM
Originally Posted By Bear_Totem:
Marines what do they use mostly M16 or m4s? .


Around 30,000 M4s and 110,000 A2/A4s with all the A2s other than training units going away.
In the real world off-campus, good marksmanship trumps good will.
Ermac
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Posted: 2/16/2009 10:50:13 AM
Originally Posted By LockingBlock:
Originally Posted By chopper7:
Less is more. Stoner knew what he was doing.




Stoner designed a 20 inch gun with a rifle length gas tube.

The M-4 is a very different beast. The MK 18 even more so...

I don't think anyone is complaining about 20 systems being non functional...but they are like muskets. You need a carbine and when you get into short barrels with DI systems, you get short service lives and extraction problems. It is the realiy of a DI system.

For what it was designed to do in a 20 inch gun, DI is great...but we aren't using 20 inch guns.

That's funny you call it a musket because 20 inches years ago use to be considered short. I agree though I always thought the 20 inch M16 was more reliable then the M4. I wonder if Colt's piston system was just them catching on to it just becaues it's a fad or is it legitimate?
arowneragain
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Posted: 2/16/2009 10:52:34 AM
Originally Posted By coldair:
the model T Ford is a great car there is no reason to drive anything else


The model T was phased out because technology improved.

I'm really not sure the gas-piston is a technological improvement - if I wanted to argue, I guess I could mention that the gas piston design was around BEFORE the AR.


None of that's really relevant, though - the question is simply this: is the gas-piston design better than DI? If not, why bother? If so, is the improvement enough to worry with?

...But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay...All my familiars watched for my halting...But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one...

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OneSickRifle
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Posted: 2/16/2009 11:01:32 AM
[Last Edit: 2/16/2009 11:02:17 AM by OneSickRifle]
Gas Pistons are the new future of the Black Rifle. Sticking to DI is like continuing to drive a 72 ford mustang and not step up to a Shelby GT500. DI is a cheap and DIRTY way to make a rifle. I took my M6A2 and blew through 200rds in under 2 minutes without one failure PERIOD.
shrikefan
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Posted: 2/16/2009 11:20:35 AM
Looks like this is another thread debating the placement of the piston since the DI uses a piston also.
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safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in

sideways, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and

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buckfever34
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Posted: 2/16/2009 11:21:54 AM
Originally Posted By Supra1988T:
Makes perfect sense if you ask me.


Originally Posted By JPratt06:
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0612Devil
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Posted: 2/16/2009 11:22:00 AM
[Last Edit: 2/16/2009 11:22:48 AM by 0612Devil]
Originally Posted By OneSickRifle:
Gas Pistons are the new future of the Black Rifle. Sticking to DI is like continuing to drive a 72 ford mustang and not step up to a Shelby GT500. DI is a cheap and DIRTY way to make a rifle. I took my M6A2 and blew through 200rds in under 2 minutes without one failure PERIOD.




lol, do you even own a DI gun? You think going 200 rounds is some sort of accomplishment?
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