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AR15_Man
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Posted: 1/11/2009 10:42:23 PM
Has any body heard about it?
Hutch477
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Posted: 1/11/2009 11:03:07 PM
I haven't but I would certainly like to. If they made a .30 caliber bullet that would work in an AR-15, be easy and cheap to reload or buy ammo for, and have decent ballistics (the 7.62x39 won't cut it) then I would definitely buy one. I really wanted a 6.8 SPC until I found out how expensive ammo is. If they could make something like that and keep it affordable that would be awesome.
mp-5
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Posted: 1/12/2009 12:30:43 AM

Remington Introduces new 30 Remington AR Cartridge

Filed under: Bullets, Brass, Ammo, Gunsmithing — Tags: AR15, Remington — Editor @ 1 pm
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http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/30rarop.pngRemington Arms just introduced a new cartridge, the 30 Remington AR (aka “30 RAR”), to be used in AR-platform rifles to be built by its DPMS subsidiary. (Remington, DPMS, and Bushmaster are all owned by Cerberus Capital Management, a private holding company.) The cartridge carries the “short, fat” design to the extreme. It is based on a shortened version of the .450 Bushmaster, which itself was a cut-down version of the .284 Winchester. Like the .284 Win, the 30 Remington AR has a rebated rim, so it will fit a .308 Win-sized boltface (0.473″). While it resembles a 30BR, the new case is much fatter, offering an impressive 44 grains of powder capacity. The portly diameter of the 30 RAR case dictates that the magazine will be a single-stack, and will hold only four (4) rounds.

Cram a Big Cartridge in an AR15 Mag and Make Sure It’s a Thirty
What was Remington thinking? Well, the stated project goal was to transform the standard AR15 into a “legitimate big game hunting platform.” Presumably, a 30-caliber cartridge was chosen for marketing purposes as that is the most common deer hunting caliber. The “science” of the design was basically to stuff the biggest cartridge possible in a standard AR15-sized magazine. According to Outdoor Life columnist John Snow: “DPMS President Randy Luth and Remington’s John Fink (brand manager for the rifle division) … both said that the goal was to look at the AR lower and see how much cartridge they could fit in there.”

30 Remington AR (30 RAR) Specifications

Case Capacity Rim
Diam.
Parent Cases Shoulder Factory Load Mag Type
44.0gr H20 0.473″
.308 bolt face
.450 Bushmaster
.284 Winchester
25° 125gr SP or
125 B-Tip
2800 fps
0.267 BC
4-Round
Single Stack

Factory 30 Remington AR Rifles and Uppers
Initially, the 30 Remington AR round will be chambered in complete, DPMS-built Remington R15 rifles, which start at $1,199.00 MSRP. For production rifles, the expected rate of twist is 1:10″, but that has not been finalized. What about separate uppers? Given the hefty price of the complete rifle, existing AR owners may prefer to purchase a 30-caliber upper by itself. While no release date was given, Remington stated that 30 RAR uppers will definitely be offered for sale in the future.

Impressive Velocities but Much Less Energy than a .308 Win Shooting 160s
With 44 grains of capacity, the 30 RAR can generate some impressive velocities with bullets in the 120-125gr weight range. Remington claims its 125gr factory ammo will deliver 2800 fps muzzle velocities running at about 55,000 psi pressure levels. Three factory loads will be offered: Rem-branded 125gr Core-Lokt PSP and 125gr AccuTip BT, and a UMC-branded 123gr FMJ. At $18.99 per 20-round box, the UMC ammo is intended for inexpensive practice purposes. The $35.99/box AccuTip and $26.49/box Core-Lokt PSP are much costlier. The relatively light-weight bullets used in the Remington ammo have poor Ballistic Coefficients compared to the longer, heavier bullets typically used in a .308 Win or 7mm-08. The 125gr Core-Lokt has a 0.267 BC, while the 125gr AccuTip is somewhat better at 0.335. Nonetheless, Remington’s ballistics tables show that the AccuTip should match the trajectory of a 165gr AccuTip (fired from a .308 Win), fairly well out to 400 yards. However, there is a BIG difference in energy as you can see from the table below. At 300 yards, the 125gr AccuTip delivers 1153 ft/lbs of energy compared to 1661 ft/lbs for a 165gr AccuTip launched at 2700 fps from a .308 Win. (Note: these numbers were calculated with 24″ barrels. Remington’s 30 RAR-chambered R15 rifle has a 22″ barrel, so its performance should be somewhat less impressive.)



http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/30rardiagramop.pngCOMMENTARY by EDITOR
Our first reaction to the news of Remington’s new cartridge was: “Why?” The obvious (and cynical) answer is that Remington wanted to sell AR-style rifles to deer hunters who need an excuse to purchase a military-style semi-automatic. There may be a market for that… who knows. But there is already a proven, compact 30-caliber cartridge that fits a standard-sized AR15 lower — the 7.62×39. The 7.62×39 won’t push a 125-grainer as fast as the bigger 30 RAR, but the 7.62×39 will still kill a whitetail plenty dead. Perhaps Remington’s engineers should simply have applied themselves to producing a proper (i.e. 100% functional) 7.62×39 magazine. This Editor has tried most of the AR15 7.62×39 magazines on the market (from 3-rd to 30-rd capacity). None of those I tested worked particularly well. Some simple redesign work (call the MagPul folks) would solve that.

Better AR Ballistics with 6.5 and 6mm Cartridges
If the goal was to produce an AR15 with better ballistics and downrange energy than the .223 Rem cartridge delivers, we’re not sure a 30-caliber was the way to go. The 6.5 Grendel performs exceptionally well in AR rifles, delivering great accuracy with 123gr Lapua Scenar or Sierra bullets. Likewise, the AR15 can be a superb High Power and Cross-the-Course platform shooting the 6mmAR cartridge developed by Robert Whitley. The 6mmAR is the 6.5 Grendel necked down to 6mm. Shooting 105 Berger VLDs it comes very, very close to the ballistics of the larger 6mmBR cartridge, and it gives up nothing in accuracy. By contrast, with its low-BC bullets, the 30 Remington AR is not going to be competitive at longer ranges with either the 6.5 Grendel or the 6mmAR. And with factory mags limited to four (4) rounds, you couldn’t use this gun effectively in High Power matches, even if it proves highly accurate on the short course.

Important Innovation or Another Orphan Cartridge?
Only time will tell whether the 30 Remington AR cartridge will catch on with sport shooters and hunters. We’re not sure the round has an important purpose that cannot be filled by existing, proven cartridges. The complete 30 RAR rifles are expensive ($1200+) compared to a typical bolt-action deer rifle, so we wonder how many deer hunters will actually jump on Remington’s bandwagon. Speaking frankly, so long as the cartridge is available only with Remington-made brass, we predict little interest among competitive shooters. Now if Lapua were to produce a 65,000-psi rated version of this cartridge, THAT might interest hunter benchrest shooters and BR for score shooters. A Lapua 30 RAR would be like a 30BR on steroids. But alas, don’t expect Lapua, or Norma, or even Winchester, to produce 30 RAR brass any time soon.

So, does the 30 Remington AR (aka “30 RAR”) have a future? It will certainly stimulate sales of AR-platform rifles to some extent. That’s important because AR sales have been lagging recently. Perhaps that is enough justification for a new round. All things considered however, we think Remington would have been better off building its “AR for big game” around the 6.5 Grendel case, perhaps in a 7mm version. Still, we have to credit Remington’s designers. Using a modern “short, fat” design, with a rebated rim, they’ve achieved impressive velocities in a very compact cartridge. The chopped-down .284 may prove to be a very accurate design.

TaylorWSO
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Posted: 1/12/2009 12:32:51 AM
as much support they gave the 6.8 sounds like another fuck up for them
Originally Posted By R0N:

I often wonder about people, who say all it produces is an “Ice pick like wound.” Just try shoving an ice pick into your chest or leg and seeing exactly how ambulatory you are after that?
subterfugeinc
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Posted: 1/12/2009 12:57:44 AM
That’s important because AR sales have been lagging recently.


yeah, you can't give the damn things away
ChromeLined
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Posted: 1/12/2009 1:16:29 AM
I say this make the AR in a thousand new cartridges...if its gonna get a hunter to buy an AR and not have the 1994 mentality of "im a hunter and dont own rifles like that "attitude better for all of us.It was that rift that made people asleep at the wheel before the first ban.....so to all FUDs and I say that with love buy an AR...no kick real acurate and coming to a caliber near you.Maybe when a hunter gets one just for hunting maybe down the road he starts thinking he wants one for home defense because its just like his "hunting"AR
Limerick
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Posted: 1/12/2009 1:21:52 AM
[Last Edit: 1/12/2009 1:27:22 AM by Limerick]
Yeah, look at the profile. No irons, no FH, no lug, 4 round mag, fixed stock, woodland scenics shrink wrap.

It is AR political correctness for all the Rambos to claim they are only interested in hunting Bambi's mom.

Don't get me wrong as I would LOVE to have a 30 caliber AR but he sure seems that Remington is hedging it's bet with a bit of dodge and weave to the gun haters.
AJE
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Posted: 1/12/2009 1:53:09 AM
Originally Posted By Limerick:
Yeah, look at the profile. No irons, no FH, no lug, 4 round mag, fixed stock, woodland scenics shrink wrap.

It is AR political correctness for all the Rambos to claim they are only interested in hunting Bambi's mom.

Don't get me wrong as I would LOVE to have a 30 caliber AR but he sure seems that Remington is hedging it's bet with a bit of dodge and weave to the gun haters.


I don't think they intentionally left those things out to appease the Fudds... I don't know that I'd add any iron sights, flash hider, or bayonet lug on a gun that I'm building to hunt with... collapsible stock, maybe.
GLOCK Armorer
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Thanks and, as always, fuck obama.
Limerick
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:02:45 AM
AJE,,,,

that I'm building to hunt with


Ah, there's the rub. No disrespect (at all) but none of my firearms were built or bought to hunt with. It is useful that they can be used that way but that isn't the business of some Gucci loafers in a cigar bar.
Aimless
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:09:59 AM
Originally Posted By Limerick:
AJE,,,,

that I'm building to hunt with


Ah, there's the rub. No disrespect (at all) but none of my firearms were built or bought to hunt with. It is useful that they can be used that way but that isn't the business of some Gucci loafers in a cigar bar.
Then you aren't exactly the target audience.

Ask about a discount on massages for Team Members in the Columbus Ohio area.
ChromeLined
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:11:24 AM
If it gets more hunters behind an AR im all for it.
Limerick
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:21:37 AM
I agree! I'm not the target audenience of Remington. Just an old fart who doesn't believe I need to couch my words, or opinions, to satisfy society. Like I said, I would be very interested in this platform. I love the 30 cal round. My 1903 is a humdinger but that bolt gets on my nerves. The marketing strategy of that Remington ad says, to me, we surrender, look no further then our 'hunting' firearms.
AJE
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:22:52 AM
Originally Posted By Limerick:
AJE,,,,

that I'm building to hunt with


Ah, there's the rub. No disrespect (at all) but none of my firearms were built or bought to hunt with. It is useful that they can be used that way but that isn't the business of some Gucci loafers in a cigar bar.


OK, period. I have never used a bayonet lug on any of my weapons, and I don't give a shit if it's on a new rifle or not. I almost left that part out, and I guess I should have.
GLOCK Armorer
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Thanks and, as always, fuck obama.
AJE
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:25:57 AM
[Last Edit: 1/12/2009 2:28:14 AM by AJE]
Originally Posted By Limerick:
I agree! I'm not the target audenience of Remington. Just an old fart who doesn't believe I need to couch my words, or opinions, to satisfy society. Like I said, I would be very interested in this platform. I love the 30 cal round. My 1903 is a humdinger but that bolt gets on my nerves. The marketing strategy of that Remington ad says, to me, we surrender, look no further then our 'hunting' firearms.


A Bushmaster Varminter doesn't come with a FH or bayo lug either... Fuck Bushmaster I guess, those Obama loving facsist bayonet hating assholes... always kissing up to the soccer moms who like more traditional semi-automatic weapons
GLOCK Armorer
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Thanks and, as always, fuck obama.
ChromeLined
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:26:27 AM
[Last Edit: 1/12/2009 2:28:19 AM by ChromeLined]
No matter what even without a flash hider or lug the remington will take a highcap mag as they already have 2 other models chambered in 5.56 so no I dont think remington conceeded or sold out.Their other 2 models are built by Bushmaster considering Cerebus Holdings LLC own them as well as Bushy and old professional ordinance if im not mistaken.
Aimless
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:28:29 AM
Originally Posted By Limerick:
I agree! I'm not the target audenience of Remington. Just an old fart who doesn't believe I need to couch my words, or opinions, to satisfy society. Like I said, I would be very interested in this platform. I love the 30 cal round. My 1903 is a humdinger but that bolt gets on my nerves. The marketing strategy of that Remington ad says, to me, we surrender, look no further then our 'hunting' firearms.

Well that thing certainly isn't a 30-06.

The neutered version allows them to sell one rifle in states like NY, CT etc which is more efficient than making two kinds. Most varmint ARs have been made that way for years.

Remington is now owned by the same people as Bushie, DPMS, Marlin etc so, as our soon to be fearless leader would say, "they have skin in the game."
Ask about a discount on massages for Team Members in the Columbus Ohio area.
Limerick
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:30:44 AM
Ok...I get the point. Remington is doing what Remington thinks best. Good for them, bad for us.

If I have started a war, well, then I screwed the pooch. Just putting in my two cents which is heavily discounted for inflation.
Aimless
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:32:47 AM
Originally Posted By Limerick:
Ok...I get the point. Remington is doing what Remington thinks best. Good for them, bad for us.

If I have started a war, well, then I screwed the pooch. Just putting in my two cents which is heavily discounted for inflation.
No big deal, I just think you are wrong about them not being on our side. [shrug] I think before the management/ownership change you were right.

Ask about a discount on massages for Team Members in the Columbus Ohio area.
Limerick
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:38:18 AM
Nah,,,,,I jacked the thread. This should have been in GD. Lost my bearings (just ask the wife). Apologies to the OP and all concerned.


ChromeLined
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:39:07 AM
I have to agree wih aimless all those companies are now under one roof I dont see the problem.
Amish_Bill
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:43:43 AM
This could be interesting.

How does the round compare to the 7.62 Russian or 6.8?
Instructor: NRA Pistol / NRA Rifle / Utah CCW

Nobody ever called 911 & said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
natethreet
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:49:25 AM
tag.


this could be interesting.....
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PAPPYO
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Posted: 1/12/2009 2:53:20 AM
Originally Posted By ChromeLined:
If it gets more hunters behind an AR im all for it.


That's the best statement yet! Let's face it how many varmint AR's do you see with a FH or Bayo lug? The more of these Big Green sells the happier I am. That'll be more emails and call's to the numb nut's in D.C. when we need them!

ChromeLined
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Posted: 1/12/2009 3:05:25 AM
[Last Edit: 1/12/2009 3:06:58 AM by ChromeLined]
And we all know you cant have just one AR...once the hunters bite into this then m,aybe they want a carbine or an AR10 or who oknows...we all know how it goes when you get the bug.Besides if having a camo AR isnt military like then I dont know what is.
RifleCal30m1n00b
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Posted: 1/12/2009 4:36:44 AM
Originally Posted By ChromeLined:
And we all know you cant have just one AR...once the hunters bite into this then m,aybe they want a carbine or an AR10 or who oknows...we all know how it goes when you get the bug.Besides if having a camo AR isnt military like then I dont know what is.


Maybe having one in a camo scheme that isn't Realtree
SuperiorBarrels
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Posted: 1/12/2009 5:32:34 AM
I do expect the ammo to be costly. It is specialty brass in relatively small quantities.
SPR, SDM-Match, Lothar Walther barrels.
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