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PoliceMarksman
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Posted: 8/18/2008 1:38:45 PM EST
I have settled on a Noveske N4 Recce Basic 16" for my patrol rifle. I like the fixed front sight.

My only decision now is to get the rifle with the VIS handguard or the rifle with the plastic mid-length handguard. The VIS rifle cost $615 more than the rifle with the platic handguard.

Is the VIS worth the price difference? What are the advantages of the VIS?

Thank you for your response!
87GN
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Posted: 8/18/2008 1:46:03 PM EST
I would not say that the VIS is worth the premium. The VIS gives you a railed forend that is of a "one piece" design with the upper receiver. It is made as 2 different pieces and then welded together.

For a patrol/duty rifle though, it is of limited value. If you want to mount a flashlight, you could always just get a quality railed forend for $150-300.
Stoner > Kalashnikov
cybrscream
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Posted: 8/18/2008 1:46:54 PM EST
The VIS is not just a handguard. The railed forend is part of the upper - its a single pience instead of an upper with a forend mounted by the delta ring or onto the barrel nut. It's a free float system that is supposed to be stronger than similar two piece free float systems. Looks cool, but I don't know if its worth the extra money.

To build your own upper with a comparable length rail system would cost about half the price.

Check out Vltor's website for more info on the VIS....www.vltor.com
AlanD
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Posted: 8/18/2008 3:37:53 PM EST
You may wish to consider the FSR upper ,which is the SWS rail with standard front sight.

FYI, the VIS is so back logged that Noveske is not taking orders for VIS uppers, last I heard.
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PoliceMarksman
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Posted: 8/18/2008 4:22:48 PM EST
Called Noveske last week Sheri advised that the VIS N4 Basic 16" are now in stock.
paladin4415
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Posted: 8/18/2008 6:34:22 PM EST
For a patrol rifle the vis will work great. If you like the look and have the money...buy it. If it were me, I would skip the vis, buy the basic, and add a Daniel Defense Omega 9" rail. Then you can use the money you save for a flashlight or put it toward an Aimpoint. Either way you're gonna love the rifle.
js308
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Posted: 8/18/2008 10:20:35 PM EST
I would get the VIS if it's a patrol rilfe becasue you probably going to mount a light, foregrip etc. The VIS is an excellent system.
87GN
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Posted: 8/19/2008 7:03:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By js308:
I would get the VIS if it's a patrol rilfe becasue you probably going to mount a light, foregrip etc. The VIS is an excellent system.


And heavy, and $300 more than a DD lite rail.
Remember, patrol rifles might actually need to be CARRIED, and extra weight adds up.
Stoner > Kalashnikov
airgunner
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Posted: 8/19/2008 7:32:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By PoliceMarksman:
I have settled on a Noveske N4 Recce Basic 16" for my patrol rifle. I like the fixed front sight.

Excellent choice

Originally Posted By PoliceMarksman:
My only decision now is to get the rifle with the VIS handguard or the rifle with the plastic mid-length handguard. The VIS rifle cost $615 more than the rifle with the platic handguard.

Get the regular plastic guards

Originally Posted By PoliceMarksman:
Is the VIS worth the price difference?

For your purpose, no, not at all. (Actually IMO, it ain't worth that much no matter what the purpose)

I suggest you get the standard handguards and if you have a need for a rail, get a DD Omega and be done with it
fonzy934
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Posted: 8/19/2008 9:38:47 AM EST
I have the VIS upper on a 16.1 Recon from Noveske and it's awesome. Is it worth the money? Admittedly, a standard rail system will do, say, 95% of what a monolithic upper will do, but those last few percentage points of performance are always very expensive. It is a rock solid platform, much more so than my LaRue-railed SPR, and the removable bottom rail is pretty convenient for maintenance/cleaning purposes. For a patrol rifle, I would say it probably isn't necessary given the cost.
js308
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Posted: 8/19/2008 9:25:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2008 9:27:17 PM EST by js308]

.
js308
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Posted: 8/19/2008 9:26:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2008 9:39:47 PM EST by js308]

Originally Posted By 87GN:


And heavy, and $300 more than a DD lite rail.
Remember, patrol rifles might actually need to be CARRIED, and extra weight adds up.



He never mentioned cost in his post. So you think the VIS is too heavy for patrol use? I don't find the VIS heavy, and most patrol rifles sit in the rack in the center of the squad car. How far is he really going to be carrying it? It's not like he will be trucking through Iraq with 70 pounds of gear on his back. When put into a tactical LE situation, I couldn't imagine saying to myself: "wow this damn VIS rail is too heavy should of went with something else."
87GN
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Posted: 8/20/2008 8:24:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By js308:

Originally Posted By 87GN:


And heavy, and $300 more than a DD lite rail.
Remember, patrol rifles might actually need to be CARRIED, and extra weight adds up.



He never mentioned cost in his post. So you think the VIS is too heavy for patrol use? I don't find the VIS heavy, and most patrol rifles sit in the rack in the center of the squad car. How far is he really going to be carrying it? It's not like he will be trucking through Iraq with 70 pounds of gear on his back. When put into a tactical LE situation, I couldn't imagine saying to myself: "wow this damn VIS rail is too heavy should of went with something else."


I'm sure he gets HUGE amounts of money as a LEO. And I'm sure he has no other financial obligations. And I'm sure that he'd NEVER go to a 2, 3, or 5 day carbine course and rapidly get tired of lugging around a rifle that is heavier than it needs to be.

I've built 2 rifles off VIS uppers and they are a PITA to build which is part of the reason why I don't like them. But they are heavier than most and more expensive than any standard upper/nice FF rail combo. And they don't do ANYTHING for you other than look nice.

So you can take the lower rail off? Cool. And do what? The only reason the lower rail comes off is to install the barrel. You really can't clean anything important with the lower rail off. Why not look at a 2 piece non free float rail or something like the DD Omega if you want to clean it easily?

If your ONLY goal is to spend money and look cool, then the VIS is perfect for you. Otherwise, there are better options.
Stoner > Kalashnikov
TehLlama42
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Posted: 8/20/2008 9:39:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2008 9:42:54 AM EST by TehLlama42]
Even if it's not a weight issue, the monolithic nature of the VIS is of very limited value - it's still possible to mount a reflex optic wherever you want accurately enough for a partol rifle using a DD Lite rail, or TROY MRF system, and a zoom optic is going to be mounted over the upper receiver proper anyway, so go with the basic.

Basically, spend money where it's important: The noveske takes care of that with quality barrel, high end BCG. For a rail system, Daniel Defense is the best option - TROY is there if you want a value minded version; there's still LaRue, KAC, DoubleStar, and others that make railed foreends... spend the money elsewhere from the VIS on a patrol rifle.

Get a solid rear BUIS, get a Surefire Scout light, put more of it into the LPK - get a SOPMOD/UBR/ACS/EMOD/ stock upgrade, run a MIAD grip, get a top end VCAS or VTAC sling,
Then get more magazines, and more practice ammunition, and some spare parts - there's better places to put the money on the rifle.
PoliceMarksman
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Posted: 8/20/2008 11:16:50 AM EST
Do you think the Noveske N4 Light Carbine Low Profile with the 14.5" barrel, would be a better Patrol Rifle that the Reece 16 " with VIS? It is over $200. cheaper, shorter, and lighter.

Thanks for your response.
87GN
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Posted: 8/20/2008 11:28:04 AM EST
I thought you wanted the fixed front sight?
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cybrscream
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Posted: 8/20/2008 11:36:25 AM EST
As 87GN pointed out - taking multiple day carbine courses make you evaluate your system, specifically its weight. For the longest time I had a 16" HBAR with a big flash light, mag coupler, and magpul m93b...that damn thing was heavy. I know carry an 11.5" with a pistol light, no mag couple, and lighter magpul ctr. It is a world of difference. If you go shorter than 16" without a pinned flash suppressor you are going to have to get a tax stamp for it...if you decide to do that you should do it soon - just in case Obama is elected...

As for the nay sayer - try holding your rifle while sitting in front of a house waiting for someone to come out for an hour. You don't always have a vehicle or other surface to rest your gun on. And it's not just SWAT callouts that require lengthy sits like this...What if you are involved in a multi-hour active shooter scenario...what if you deploy your rifle on someone who then runs from you - now you have to run as fast at the guy while carrying your rifle (good time to mention you should get a two point sling!!!!! Preferable a quick adjust that you can tighten up in such a scenario).

Just my two cents - or dollars - or whatever.
R6TOR1
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Posted: 8/20/2008 11:40:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By PoliceMarksman:
Do you think the Noveske N4 Light Carbine Low Profile with the 14.5" barrel, would be a better Patrol Rifle that the Reece 16 " with VIS? It is over $200. cheaper, shorter, and lighter.

Thanks for your response.



Keep in mind the N4 Light Carbine is carbine length gas system while the Recce is a mid-length gas system. If you're in LE, they'll hook you up. I can email you a price list if you want.
js308
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Posted: 8/20/2008 11:49:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2008 11:50:36 AM EST by js308]
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js308
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Posted: 8/20/2008 11:52:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By 87GN:

Originally Posted By js308:

Originally Posted By 87GN:


And heavy, and $300 more than a DD lite rail.
Remember, patrol rifles might actually need to be CARRIED, and extra weight adds up.



He never mentioned cost in his post. So you think the VIS is too heavy for patrol use? I don't find the VIS heavy, and most patrol rifles sit in the rack in the center of the squad car. How far is he really going to be carrying it? It's not like he will be trucking through Iraq with 70 pounds of gear on his back. When put into a tactical LE situation, I couldn't imagine saying to myself: "wow this damn VIS rail is too heavy should of went with something else."


I'm sure he gets HUGE amounts of money as a LEO. And I'm sure he has no other financial obligations. And I'm sure that he'd NEVER go to a 2, 3, or 5 day carbine course and rapidly get tired of lugging around a rifle that is heavier than it needs to be.

I've built 2 rifles off VIS uppers and they are a PITA to build which is part of the reason why I don't like them. But they are heavier than most and more expensive than any standard upper/nice FF rail combo. And they don't do ANYTHING for you other than look nice.

So you can take the lower rail off? Cool. And do what? The only reason the lower rail comes off is to install the barrel. You really can't clean anything important with the lower rail off. Why not look at a 2 piece non free float rail or something like the DD Omega if you want to clean it easily?

If your ONLY goal is to spend money and look cool, then the VIS is perfect for you. Otherwise, there are better options.




Am I the only one here that doesn't find the VIS heavy? Carbine course, standoff, etc.... Guess I must hit the gym too much.
js308
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Posted: 8/20/2008 11:56:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2008 12:27:10 PM EST by js308]

Originally Posted By PoliceMarksman:
Do you think the Noveske N4 Light Carbine Low Profile with the 14.5" barrel, would be a better Patrol Rifle that the Reece 16 " with VIS? It is over $200. cheaper, shorter, and lighter.

Thanks for your response.


I think you mean the N4 light carbine, Basic VIS correct?
It has a fixed front sight. This is also an excellent set up. It has a 7inch rail versus a 9inch rail like the Rece. The Rece basic with VIS is about 7 pounds. The Carbine Basic with Vis is about 6.3 pounds. You would be saving about half a pound .

Here is the link:
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=r-lcbv-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=

I say order the VIS directly from Noveske. That way you don't have to resend it out to someone to have the Daniel Defence rail installed. That way the work is guaranteed through Noveske. If your in decent shape you wont feel the ounces of weight savings doing LEO work. But others may have different opinions, so do what you feel is right for you. Try to handle one in person if possible.
Stickman
Rainier Arms
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Posted: 8/20/2008 2:31:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By PoliceMarksman:
I have settled on a Noveske N4 Recce Basic 16" for my patrol rifle. I like the fixed front sight.




As much as I love the VIS, I would be very tempted to go with the basic, and swap the handguards over to the DD Omega 9.0 rail. You can see that setup, along with the VIS in the below picture.


I would carry either one as a duty weapon without any complaint. My next duty carbine will probably be the N4 basic with a few mods.

Stick



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PoliceMarksman
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Posted: 8/20/2008 4:03:10 PM EST
I like the fixed front sight, but the Light carbine basic with VIS is not available at this time.

Some of you have got me to thinking about weight and length of the rifle. The light carbine N4 low profile with 14.5" barrel, might be a better all around patrol rifle. It should be able to do anything the 16" Recce will.

I don't like hanging alot of equipment on the rifle, just a light, and verticle forearm grip.

Thanks for everyones help.
platypusREX
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Posted: 8/20/2008 4:36:11 PM EST
MSTN can make you one.
paladin4415
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Posted: 8/20/2008 6:25:59 PM EST
My current patrol rifle is an N4 Basic with a Knight's M4 RAS. The only other things on it are a surefire flashlight, an Aimpoint T1 on a LaRue mount, and a single point sling.
Best damn rifle I ever had for patrol.
Razzman1
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Posted: 8/20/2008 11:56:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2008 12:06:13 AM EST by Razzman1]
I recently picked up an N4 light recce as my patrol rifle. Our armorer made the decision that we were not allowed vertical fore grips, so my plan to mount a Surefire light with a clicky tailcap used with a VFG was out. So I decided to simply order it with the basic plastic handguards, pick up one of the CAA 45 degree mounts, and use the pressure pad swith for the light. It works perfectly fine, and was a cheap option. It may not be high-speed, but it works.

ETA: Either the N4 or the recce would be a fine choice. I got the recce because I wanted to try out a mid-length gas system, but I (just my opinion) can't feel any real difference between it and my carbine length gas systems. The longer sight radius is a bonus, though. Also, don't get so hung up on a free-floated rail. What are you using it for? If you are like me, its a patrol rifle, and the only thing that would ever go on the front would be a light and a VFG (unless you have our armorer). In my opinion, a free-floated rail is simply not necessary-or mandatory might be a better word-for a patrol rifle. Get a FF rail if you want, but if the only thing that's ever going on it is going to be a light, consider an inexpensive 2-piece rail (like the Midwest Industries) and spend your money on the important stuff. Either way, you can't go wrong with the Noveske rifle. Stay safe.

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