IWhen you buy a upper what do the designations a1-a2-a3-a4- and m4 mean.

Thanks

Troy

A1 - Fixed carry handle, rear sight adjustable for windage only.
A2 - Fixed carry handle, rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation.
A3 - Same as A2
A4 - Flat top upper

M4 - Some early fixed carry handles (A2/A3 style), but for the most part "M4" is associated with a flat top upper that has extended feed ramps cut into the receiver.

A3 is flat top also

M1 Carbine= Semi-Auto from WWII
M2 Carbine= Full-Auto from WWII
M3 Carbine= Night vision equiped M2 from WWII

M4 Carbine= The next carbine # in line when the need arose.

height=8

Quoted: A3 is flat top also

Really? Better get busy, lots of manuals need changed if that is true he

Quoted: Quoted: A3 is flat top also Really? Better get busy, lots of manuals need changed if that is true

A3 is flat top 20" bbl with removable carry handle.  I've seen enough of them in person in the .mil  

ETA:  A3 are usually A2 profile bbls, flattop uppers on A1 lowers, (so safe-semi-auto not safe-semi-burst).  A4 are safe-semi-burst flattop 20" uppers.

Strictly in a commercial sense, when you're talking about purchasing upper receivers, as far as standard forged uppers you've got:

M16 or "slickside" - no forward assist, fixed carry handle with "field" sights

A1 - forward assist, most typically teardrop, however, could also be large button, also fixed carry handle with field sights

C7 - identical to the A1, however, more frequently seen with small button forward assists, and also includes the addition of the case deflector.  All new production "A1" uppers are in fact C7-type uppers.  C7 does in fact refer specifically the the Diemaco C7 rifle, which was basically an AUTO M16A2 with A1 sights for the Canadian Army, however, in general lexicon it's used to refer to any A1 upper produced with a case deflector.  

A2 - the A2 refers to the fixed carry handle upper, with a forward assist and case deflector, usually seen with the small button forward assist, but can use any of the others as well.  What sets it apart is the that it has the adjustable target sights requested by the Marine Corps, and is used on the M16A2.

A3 - in commercial circles has very little to do with what the military refers to as the M16A3, which is nothing more than a fully automatic M16A2, usually seen in use by the SeeBees.  Commercially, however, it refers to the same thing as A4.

A4 - is a forged flattop receiver with a 1913 rail section on top, rather than a carry handle.  It too has the forward assist and case deflector, though there are a couple of groups looking at offering slickside A4 uppers.  Any forward assist can, as usual, be installed, however, they are almost uniformly provided with small button forward assists unless changed by the end user.

M4 - is identical to the A3/4 uppers, however, it also has the extended carbine feedramps cut into the upper receiver that are generally included in what's called an M4 barrel extension.  In addition, what is specifically an M4 upper receiver also sometimes refers to an actual Colt M4 upper with all the proper markings, meaning that it has the extended feedramps, and is marked "M4" above the gas tube opening (cloverleaf), as well as having white "T" markings in the grooves between the upper receiver rail to index accessories.  

The whole situation is muddied by the fact that there's little to no standardization commercially with regards to nomenclature, and therefore, it can sometimes get confusing, and you often don't know exactly what you're looking at unless you ask specifically about certain features, i.e. A4 versus M4 uppers.  For example, with CMMG, every A3 upper actually fits the "M4" upper criteria, because their barrels all come with extended feedramps.  On the other hand, a Colt A3 upper, if you got one, could end up being the same thing as an A2, and there's a difference in the feedramps between the A4 and M4 uppers.  

Hope this didn't confuse things too much for you...

Make sure you know what features you want/need, and make sure to ask is the moral of the story.  This site is a great resource for those kinds of questions as well, and be sure to read the tacked stickies.  

HTH,
~Augee

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A3 is flat top also Really? Better get busy, lots of manuals need changed if that is true A3 is flat top 20" bbl with removable carry handle.  I've seen enough of them in person in the .mil   ETA:  A3 are usually A2 profile bbls, flattop uppers on A1 lowers, (so safe-semi-auto not safe-semi-burst).  A4 are safe-semi-burst flattop 20" uppers.

I've seen enough of them in person as well, and not a one was a flat top.

Dunno what an A4 upper on a A1 lower is considered but an M16A3 it ain't.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A3 is flat top also Really? Better get busy, lots of manuals need changed if that is true A3 is flat top 20" bbl with removable carry handle.  I've seen enough of them in person in the .mil   ETA:  A3 are usually A2 profile bbls, flattop uppers on A1 lowers, (so safe-semi-auto not safe-semi-burst).  A4 are safe-semi-burst flattop 20" uppers. I've seen enough of them in person as well, and not a one was a flat top. Dunno what an A4 upper on a A1 lower is considered but an M16A3 it ain't.

I'm sorry you're so confused.  Let me help you out:

M-16 Rifle M-16 line art Additional Media   M-16 1M-16 2M-16 3 Mission Deter and, if necessary, compel adversaries by enabling individuals and small units to engage targets with accurate, lethal, direct fire. Entered Army Service 1964 Description and Specifications A lightweight, air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed rifle designed for either automatic or semi-automatic fire through use of a selector lever. There are four variants - the M-16A1/A2/A3/A4. The M-16A2 incorporates improvements in iron sight, pistol grip, stock and overall combat effectiveness. Accuracy is enhanced by incorporating an improved muzzle compensator, three-round burst control, and a heavier barrel; and by using the heavier NATO-standard ammunition, which is also fired by the squad automatic weapon. The M-16A3 is identical to the M-16A2 but has a removable carrying handle that is mounted on a Picatinny Rail(for better mounting of optics) and is without burst control . The M-16A4 is identical to the M-16A2 except for the removable carrying handle and Picatinny Rail.    * Caliber:   5.56 mm    * Weight:   8.8 lbs (includes sling & one loaded magazine)    * Range:   800 meters for an area target / 550 meters for a point target Manufacturer Colt Manufacturing and Fabrique Nationale Manufacturing Inc.

Maybe the source is suspect?

www.army.mil/factfiles/equipment/individual/m16.html


So you mean the US Army says an M-16A3 is a flat top upper with full auto trigger group (like all A1 lowers have).  Who would have thunk it?  

That page isnt totally accurate.
understandable as the army doesnt
really use the a3. The actual TM
does say its a fhxed carry handle.
The pictures are wrong though.
Thez both show the A4 and M4.
From what ive seen a lot of Air
Force rifles are total frankenguns
and rebuilds.

The source is in fact suspect.  Being in the Army, they are not always the best source of information.  I'd be surprised if that was even written by someone in the Army, and not a contracted web designer, and even if it was written by a soldier, I doubt they have too much familiarity with the small details of weapons systems.  

As a matter of fact, that looks like a copy and paste of other erroneous information to be found on the internet.  The A3 = flattop confusion most likely stemmed from the commercial use of the A3 designation as a flattop receiver.  

While M16A3's may exist with flattop receivers somewhere out there, they are rarely, if ever even issued to the Army, and are primarily, if not exclusively issued to the SeeBees, Navy.  I have yet to see or hear of a flattop M16A3, though it is possible that some are out there as a result of refurbs.  However, from the factory, and every M16A3 I've ever seen or heard of, whether stateside or in theater is an M16A2 with a full auto trigger mechanism, and are usually Colt A2 type lowers, not A1 lowers, rollmarked US PROP M16AE3, though FN has made some as well.


Note that the caption to this photo is erroneous as well, though arguably, Colt M16A3's are not marked as M16A3's, but rather M16AE3

That reliable source is also using pictures of Marines to illustrate weapons, as well, and I highly doubt that it's because it's so hard to get pictures of soldiers holding M16's and M4's.  


www.army.mil/-images/2007/05/14/4987/army.mil-2007-05-23-142801.jpg <- URL to above picture

"Official" sources are very often the worst for research, because they are often fraught with generalizations and projections, not to mention plain old misinformation.  

Sorry for the off topic rant,
~Augee

ETA: huge photograph from website removed and hotlinked.

It's just a nomenclature that someone assigned to the Colt AR-15 Carbine we have in the .mil

M9 is our Pistol

M2 is a Bradley

M198 is the 155mm towed Howitzer but the new one to replace it isn't the M198A1 or the M199.  No it's "logically" called the M777

You will go crazy trying to figure out the logic behind nomenclatures in the .mil because there is none.

Quoted: Anyone want to put money on the idea that M16A3s started out as A2 type uppers with auuto, but lately have morphed over to flattop uppers with Auto? Just like the early M4s had fixed A2 handles and they morphed into flattops later on.

It's possible, though I've never seen a rifle marked as an M16A3 with a flat top.

Granted last time I saw an A3 was in '06 and things could have changed since then. If they are in existence, it would be interesting to know if they were built as such or retrofitted with A4 uppers.

Jeez, don't we have any active duty SeaBees here?

Bicker bicker

The OP only wants to know what they mean:
A1 =first variant, 1/12 twist, pencil barrel, auto
A2 =second variant, 1/7 twist, heavier barrel, 3rd burst
A3 =third variant, Same as A2, but auto
A4 =fourth variant, same as A2 but, with flat top upper
A5 =guess it may be an auto A4 (if they ever make it)

M4 =fourth U.S. Carbine, 1/7 twist, 14.5" barrel, 3rd burst
M4A1 =first variant of M4, some have heavier barrels, and they are auto, not 3rd burst.

What does it mean? It is a chance for people on here to bitch back and for about the difference between nomenclature used on military and civilian rifles while they forget that the nomenclature between the two are often different. On a further note, your question was answered by M4builder at the first of the thread. Dont worry about that shit, just shoot.

A3 upper in the civilian market typically refers to a flattop upper.  A4 upper in the civilian world typically means the same.  

M4 upper - the upper receiver of the M4 carbine which is coincidentally a flattop upper receiver that has (its not Thrusday, I know) M4 feedramps.

M4 Carbine - description

I don't know the .mil side but from this post alone it seems A3 means potentially two different configurations; I was only familiar with the Navy's M16A3s which are M16A2s with full-auto capablity rather than the A2's burst.

What does "M" anything mean?  I don't know other than Military.  

Too many letters and numbers together!!!

M4 Barrel:


A1= Fixed Carrying handle, A1 Sights, Safe-Semi-Full
A1 (Civ)= Fixed Carrying handle, A1 Sights, Safe-Semi

A2= Fixed Carrying handle, A2 Sights, Safe-Semi-Burst
A2 (Civ)= Fixed Carrying handle, A2 Sights, Safe-Semi

A3= Fixed Carrying handle, A2 Sights, Safe-Semi-Full
A3 (Civ)= Flat Top Upper, Various Sights, Safe-Semi

A4= Flat Top Upper Receiver, Various Sights, Safe-Semi-Burst
A4 (Civ)= Flat Top Receiver, Various Sights, Safe-Semi

Here's a more basic answer: in the military, the nomenclature (M-16, M-4, B-52, SR-71) refers to the weapon system itself. The letter describes what type of equipment the object is. I believe that "M" is Army designation for mobile, USAF designation: B=bomber, F=figher, C=cargo, etc., the number in the nomenclature refers to the production contract number and sometimes the year of the contract. The "A" refers to which modification of the original production run the equipment is(e.g.: M-16, M-16A1, M-16A2) If it sounds unnecessarily confusing, it is - military procurement is a circus.    

M4 burst setting

M4A1 full auto setting

Quoted: Here's a more basic answer: in the military, the nomenclature (M-16, M-4, B-52, SR-71) refers to the weapon system itself. The letter describes what type of equipment the object is. I believe that "M" is Army designation for mobile, USAF designation: B=bomber, F=figher, C=cargo, etc., the number in the nomenclature refers to the production contract number and sometimes the year of the contract. The "A" refers to which modification of the original production run the equipment is(e.g.: M-16, M-16A1, M-16A2) If it sounds unnecessarily confusing, it is - military procurement is a circus.

M=Model
XM= Experimental Model
The number is given based on testing, and then procurement.

The system used to be based off the year the peice of equipment was procured like the M1919 (Model of 1919). Around the beginging of WW2 it switched to our current system of a series). Like the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. So between the M1 Garand and M14 there were 12 XM rifles. If even just one peice of equipment is tested it gets an XM designation until its procured into service. So between the M14 and M16 there was an XM15 which didnt get adopted, and then the XM16 was tested which became the M16, that changed to the M16A1, and then the A2 et cetera. There were 3 carbines before the M4. Who knows what the next carbine designation will be that gets into service. Might be the M20 for all we know if 15 carbines have been tested between.

It doesnt really have much to do with aircraft which the type is designated by the letters.

AH= Attack Helicopter
UH= Utility Helicopter

Quoted: A3 is flat top also

The military A3 is just a full auto A2. The cilivian A3 is a flat top.

Quoted: Quoted: Here's a more basic answer: in the military, the nomenclature (M-16, M-4, B-52, SR-71) refers to the weapon system itself. The letter describes what type of equipment the object is. I believe that "M" is Army designation for mobile, USAF designation: B=bomber, F=figher, C=cargo, etc., the number in the nomenclature refers to the production contract number and sometimes the year of the contract. The "A" refers to which modification of the original production run the equipment is(e.g.: M-16, M-16A1, M-16A2) If it sounds unnecessarily confusing, it is - military procurement is a circus.     M=Model XM= Experimental Model The number is given based on testing, and then procurement. The system used to be based off the year the peice of equipment was procured like the M1919 (Model of 1919). Around the beginging of WW2 it switched to our current system of a series). Like the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. So between the M1 Garand and M14 there were 12 XM rifles. If even just one peice of equipment is tested it gets an XM designation until its procured into service. So between the M14 and M16 there was an XM15 which didnt get adopted, and then the XM16 was tested which became the M16, that changed to the M16A1, and then the A2 et cetera. There were 3 carbines before the M4. Who knows what the next carbine designation will be that gets into service. Might be the M20 for all we know if 15 carbines have been tested between. It doesnt really have much to do with aircraft which the type is designated by the letters. AH= Attack Helicopter UH= Utility Helicopter

Good explanation, what I find confusing, then, is why did the M-4 come after the M-16?

Quoted: Quoted: Here's a more basic answer: in the military, the nomenclature (M-16, M-4, B-52, SR-71) refers to the weapon system itself. The letter describes what type of equipment the object is. I believe that "M" is Army designation for mobile, USAF designation: B=bomber, F=figher, C=cargo, etc., the number in the nomenclature refers to the production contract number and sometimes the year of the contract. The "A" refers to which modification of the original production run the equipment is(e.g.: M-16, M-16A1, M-16A2) If it sounds unnecessarily confusing, it is - military procurement is a circus.     M=Model XM= Experimental Model The number is given based on testing, and then procurement. The system used to be based off the year the peice of equipment was procured like the M1919 (Model of 1919). Around the beginging of WW2 it switched to our current system of a series). Like the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. So between the M1 Garand and M14 there were 12 XM rifles. If even just one peice of equipment is tested it gets an XM designation until its procured into service. So between the M14 and M16 there was an XM15 which didnt get adopted, and then the XM16 was tested which became the M16, that changed to the M16A1, and then the A2 et cetera. There were 3 carbines before the M4. Who knows what the next carbine designation will be that gets into service. Might be the M20 for all we know if 15 carbines have been tested between. It doesnt really have much to do with aircraft which the type is designated by the letters. AH= Attack Helicopter UH= Utility Helicopter

what about the xm177? Were there 177 short carbines tested along with that one?

How did the M16A2E3 come about?!?!

Oh Man, I've just thought myself cross-eyed

Like I said, military procurement is confusing.

Quoted: Good explanation, what I find confusing, then, is why did the M-4 come after the M-16?

It's the fourth carbine,
M1 .30 carbine,
M2 select fire .30 carbine,
M3 .30 carbine with crude night vision scope,

M16s are rifles, M4 series are carbines.

To throw some more gas on the A3 fire...

Quoted: Quoted: Good explanation, what I find confusing, then, is why did the M-4 come after the M-16? It's the fourth carbine, M1 .30 carbine, M2 select fire .30 carbine, M3 .30 carbine with crude night vision scope, M16s are rifles, M4 series are carbines.

I'll be damned, that makes sense!

oh now you're gone and done it, ch139

is that a second-tier plastic trigger guard on that top-tier colt m16a3?

I learn something everyday.

Quoted: To throw some more gas on the A3 fire... photos.templarfirearms.com/albums/userpics/10001/m16a3_up.jpg

Enough of a color difference between the upper and lower that I'd suspect it was changed at some point.

Quoted: Quoted: To throw some more gas on the A3 fire... photos.templarfirearms.com/albums/userpics/10001/m16a3_up.jpg Enough of a color difference between the upper and lower that I'd suspect it was changed at some point.

I doubt it.  Every SP in Korea was carrying that exact configuration when I was there.  

Quoted: To throw some more gas on the A3 fire... photos.templarfirearms.com/albums/userpics/10001/m16a3_up.jpg

A4 receiver on an A3.

Quoted: Quoted: To throw some more gas on the A3 fire... photos.templarfirearms.com/albums/userpics/10001/m16a3_up.jpg A4 receiver on an A3.

Dunno. I just posted the pic so as ya'll can fight over it.

Apparently, the term "M4" translates into a multi-page thread full of bickering about various M16 variants, with a few nuggets of information interspersed that actually relate to the original question, that you have to dig through the thread to find like a french pig looking for truffles.....

Clear as mud?

Quoted: Apparently, the term "M4" translates into a multi-page thread full of bickering about various M16 variants, with a few nuggets of information interspersed that actually relate to the original question, that you have to dig through the thread to find like a french pig looking for truffles..... Clear as mud?

Why should this thread be any different?

Quoted: Quoted: Apparently, the term "M4" translates into a multi-page thread full of bickering about various M16 variants, with a few nuggets of information interspersed that actually relate to the original question, that you have to dig through the thread to find like a french pig looking for truffles..... Clear as mud? Why should this thread be any different?

oohh...touche`.

Game and match, my good man....

Quoted: To throw some more gas on the A3 fire... photos.templarfirearms.com/albums/userpics/10001/m16a3_up.jpg

That is a fake.  That is a photoshop job or airsoft.

Quoted: Quoted: To throw some more gas on the A3 fire... photos.templarfirearms.com/albums/userpics/10001/m16a3_up.jpg That is a fake.  That is a photoshop job or airsoft.

Yeah, look at the size of that auto sear pin..

There is only one documented M16A3 contract.  It was DAAA09-93-C-0034 awarded on 30 October 1992 with deliveries in 1993 for 8,624 rifles for the U.S. Navy.  These rifles were made by Colt had an A2 upper receiver with a full auto rather then burst lower and were marked M16A2E3 with serial numbers starting at 8,850,000.  These were given NSN: 1005-01-357-5112, with Govt. Drawing Number: 12012000, and Mil-Spec MIL-R-71135 (later revised).

There are a couple of brand new M16A3 contracts awarded in December of 2007, but I don't think deliveries have been made yet.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: To throw some more gas on the A3 fire... photos.templarfirearms.com/albums/userpics/10001/m16a3_up.jpg That is a fake.  That is a photoshop job or airsoft. I'd be interested in how you can tell.  Is it the plastic trigger guard and/or the prancing pony rollmark?

Wrong font, out of porportion markings, pins, etc...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: To throw some more gas on the A3 fire... photos.templarfirearms.com/albums/userpics/10001/m16a3_up.jpg That is a fake.  That is a photoshop job or airsoft. I'd be interested in how you can tell.  Is it the plastic trigger guard and/or the prancing pony rollmark?

It would be easier to list what is correct on it, it is all jacked up.  

I am sure that the picture of the airsoft gun was a joke... I at least hope it was. As the majority of the info passed so far has been wrong, I suspect that it was posted only for entertainment value.

Quoted: M1 Carbine= Semi-Auto from WWII M2 Carbine= Full-Auto from WWII M3 Carbine= Night vision equiped M2 from WWII i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/M1Carbine.jpg M4 Carbine= The next carbine # in line when the need arose. i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/A20small.jpg

This is the correct response.

Quoted: From what ive seen a lot of Air Force rifles are total frankenguns and rebuilds.

Considering how little money the Air Force gets for small arms, they have to make the most of what they have.  I've seen some doozies, let me tell you!  The armorers just had to do what they could to keep rifles in the hands of the people who needed them.

The last M16s I messed with before retiring were converted to A2s by CATM-change out the FCG and put an A2 upper half on it and you're done.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Here's a more basic answer: in the military, the nomenclature (M-16, M-4, B-52, SR-71) refers to the weapon system itself. The letter describes what type of equipment the object is. I believe that "M" is Army designation for mobile, USAF designation: B=bomber, F=figher, C=cargo, etc., the number in the nomenclature refers to the production contract number and sometimes the year of the contract. The "A" refers to which modification of the original production run the equipment is(e.g.: M-16, M-16A1, M-16A2) If it sounds unnecessarily confusing, it is - military procurement is a circus.     M=Model XM= Experimental Model The number is given based on testing, and then procurement. The system used to be based off the year the peice of equipment was procured like the M1919 (Model of 1919). Around the beginging of WW2 it switched to our current system of a series). Like the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. So between the M1 Garand and M14 there were 12 XM rifles. If even just one peice of equipment is tested it gets an XM designation until its procured into service. So between the M14 and M16 there was an XM15 which didnt get adopted, and then the XM16 was tested which became the M16, that changed to the M16A1, and then the A2 et cetera. There were 3 carbines before the M4. Who knows what the next carbine designation will be that gets into service. Might be the M20 for all we know if 15 carbines have been tested between. It doesnt really have much to do with aircraft which the type is designated by the letters. AH= Attack Helicopter UH= Utility Helicopter what about the xm177? Were there 177 short carbines tested along with that one? How did the M16A2E3 come about?!?! Oh Man, I've just thought myself cross-eyed

The XM177 series was considered a submachine gun at the time and not a carbine.  It was also never adopted, hence XM and not M177.  For several years I was still issued a XM16E1 (prototype M16A1) til we turned them in for new M16A2 in 1986.  

CD

Quoted: and then the XM16 was tested which became the M16, that changed to the M16A1, and then the A2 et cetera.

It is more complicated then that, unfortunately.

The M16 and M16A1 were two different rifles that were procured concurrently.  The M16 was the Air Force rifle without forward assist while the M16A1 was used by other services with the forward assist.  The M16 was the Colt model 604, and the M16A1 was the Colt model 603.

There really was no such thing as an XM16.  You can find some military literature during 1963 that refers to a XM16 but the rifles made at the time were roll marked AR-15 and by the time the Air Force got their first M16 rifles in 1964 it was adopted as the M16 and marked as such.

There was a XM16E1.  From 1964 through 1966 the Colt model 603 was procured with the forward assist and roll marked XM16E1.  At the same time the Air Force was getting their standard rifle the M16.  The XM16E1 was originally intended to be a one time buy for a stop gap rifle to replace the M14 in limited selected units until the SPIW come on line.  These originally went to Special Forces, Airborne, Air Assault, etc as an experimental rifle, hence the name XM16E1.

The XM16E1 was adopted as standard in 1967 and then became known as the M16A1.  It is the same rifle, the Army now referring to the XM16E1 as the M16A1 and Colt all the time calling it a model 603.

I'm looking through my small arms guides right now and see that every model of rifle or carbine since 1903 has inconsistant variant designations.  The same with my vehicles guide.  Various models intended to be one variant are often stamped and designated one way, then serviced and assembled as another.  You'll be able to find exceptions to absolutely every M16/M4 variant.

To the OP, does M4Builder answer your question?

What does M4 mean??....." Good bye, Abdul !"