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the problem with a head shot on most game is the size of the brain. there is only a very small area that will cause instant death (same thing for humans). On large game, you have thick hide to start with, but you also have a thick skull to get thru also. Combine the thickness with the angle of the skull and you increase the odds of the bullet glancing off with no more than a flesh wound. You may get lucky and knock the animal out, but that just buys some time. A lung shot is a big target.On a profile, low, you get the heart, back you get the liver, high you get the spine, forward you break the shoulder. More margin of error with a vital. |
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remember you don't have to outrun the bear, you only have to outrun your friend... |
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The .40 with 180 gr. slugs would probably do you better. the only off chance of anything .223 reliably killing a black bear before it did harm to you, or without mag dumping like crazy would be a LUCKY head shot.
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I thought everyone only loads to 28 in case they need to do a tactical reload on the bear |
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A handgun bullet? I can see that. A spitzer point high velocity rifle round? Not very likely at all. The point will pretty easily bite into the bone. |
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Ok so far we have an IMO, a I think, an I believe and several wouldn't it kill the bear if you hit it in the head.
So has anyone really hunted bear and what did you carry. Also I've seen pics of their feet that were as wide as my torso and they had these hidous claws on them. So it would seem to me that something a little larger than a 223/556 would be in order for a full grown bear. Folks this is an animal that can eat you like you eat a chicken wing. |
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The OP is discussing an Eastern Black Bear (Pennsylvania). You are using a straw'bear' argument. We are talking a bear that seldom exceeds 300lbs and is usually much less. There are no eastern black bears that approach what you describe. If I were gonna carry against an eastern black bear and did not want an AR due to size and PC considerations, I would carry a .357 revolver loaded with heavy semi-wadcutters. I could do far more damage with an AR is the same time I could put off 6 wadcutters. I could put at least 10-12 TBC or FMJ rounds into it in the same time and I would put them with far greater precision. |
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I've shot a bear with a 150gr FMJ from a .308. It did not fully penetrate the NECK on the bear. Granted, this was a big boy (and a decent sized rug these days) but anything short of a bonded controlled expansion bullet in a lighter caliber is stupid. I would literally rather have a Smith .44 revolver than an AR. You will not have time to empty an entire magazine, you will fire only a few rounds and that will determine the encounter.
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And what kind of bear did you shoot and in what state did you shoot it in? What did it dress out at? |
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Blackie, dressed out at over 300 (can't remember exactly). He was seven feet from tail to nose when hung.
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You could take down a black bear with an automatic AR-15. Otherwise it might as well be a pea shooter. The bear may bleed out and die 10 hours later but he'll have killed you by then. Get a shotgun or AR-50.
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ok people, listen up this is what the beta c was designed for!!!he
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I'd like to see that after the Beta mag dump The cooking flesh would only make the bear hungry. 250lb man vs. 250lb bear = not good for the human. Do you honestly think you could take a bear in a hand to hand fight even after it's been shot? Good luck. |
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Guys, although I am somewhat new here I think we need to back up and answer a few vital questions:
1) Do you have M4 feedramps? 2) Are you using a gas-piston upper? 3) Is your buffer tube mil-spec and not commercial? 4) Does your rifle have a mid-length gas system? If you can't say YES to all 4 of these questions, you are bear poop my friend. |
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You had better perfect the butt stroke or learn to use it as a club.
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You can hunt in Brazil if the animals you are hunting are not native to brazil, a friend of mine raises buffalo for hunting in his farm. And about the FA ar15 it was a M16 form a friend in the law enforcement.... |
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As I have not actually pulled the trigger on a 100% live bear my hunting friend has, In some states if you hunting big game like that you must have a side arm of specified cal. (in my case S&W 500 500gr.) I would use a .300 at the least. Wouldn't mind bein the one to drop the SoB instead of putting it out of its misery.
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I used to work at an oudoors shop and a friend of mine who brought a bear in showed me where he hit it with 6 shots from a .44 mag, before his hunting buddy dropped it with a 12 GA slug. The .44 holes were about 4-6 inches deep in the chest and back, and the bullets had completely disentegrated, he was using 240gr. Win. Silvertips, but the personal defense kind, not for hungint. Only use HUNTING ammo in a handgun. |
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Exactly go out in pairs and make sure your the faster guy of the two. It also never hurts to sneak a Twinkie in his pocket for extra measure. |
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300 + gr hard cast lead loaded to the hilt is the usual medicine for bear defense in a .44mag. |
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I couldnt find the article , but I remember reading about a state trooper in the mid west that killeda black bear with a .357 sig. Allegedly with one round to the head.
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There was a story of a guy killing an attacking Grizzly with a 9mm stoked with ball ammo.
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Any gun is better than nothing, but bigger is better. I would not trust a .223 to do the job and would prefer something that would not frag on impact. |
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Shit, just use Wolf! |
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Yeah, and there was a story in Field and Stream about a guy killing a tiger in Vietnam with about 5 or 6 shots from an M16 (it was stalking his point man, who had crossed the river ahead of the rest of the patrol). Saved the guy's life. That's why I say that you can KILL a bear with a 5.56/.223. Eastern Black Bear is not a 1200 pound Kodiak, and is much smaller than that cat was. You can do several things when it comes to wild animal protection. First is be smart about what you do and where you go. Those two things make more difference than anything else you can do. I grew up camping in grizzly bear country. I recall seeing one of them twice. Once was when I was floating down a large river -- I have a teeny little picture of that one. But in an area I've frequently camped in, several years ago a grizzly pulled a teenage girl out of a camper one night -- she was "having her monthly". As said before, bears follow smells. Be smart about that. Keep the food out of camp, and NEVER in tents/sleeping bags. I'd bet cash that girlscout had cookies or something in her sleeping bag. If you need a weapon, having one beats not having one. Take what you've got and load it right. A 12g is useless on bears if you load it with #8 quail loads. Use appropriate ammo for whatever you end up taking. Knowing when to use it and when not to use it is important too. Just because it's near you doesn't justify using it. Just like with criminals, behavior determines appropriate responses. If you feel threatened just by seeing a bear, maybe you should stay home. If you can tell the biting end from the pooping end, and have the presence of mind to judge which end is pointing toward you as it runs/waddles/trashes your campsite, then you should be able to determine the appropriate response and will be fine. |
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X2 on the girl scout having cookies for the bear. It's just like the shark attacks in Florida a few years back. What the media didn't tell you was one guy was fishing in surf with a basket of bloody bait tied to his waist or the teenage girls who went swimming in a POSTED shark area .Most of the attacks had a logical reason when you talk to locals who have first hand knowledge. I've seen people swimming in Jacksonville, FL.around a pier with literally dozens of BIG sharks a few yards away. When they were warned the acted like you were crazy and wasting their time. Survival of the fittest. I've seen a .22LR drop a full size steer. It was a well placed brain shot. Just don't open up the "Old Country Buffet" for Mr. Bear and you'll be fine. Take the AR if it gives you peace of mind.
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When out in Ze Voods, in addition to my Howa M1500 in .270 win I carry a pistol, as well as my trusty, loud, heavy, gorgeous DSA SA58C loaded to the brim with Winchester 150gr. Ballistic Silvertips.
Heavy? Hell yeah Overkill? Maybe I'm a soldier... I enjoy traipsing around with more iron than I need, the misery floats my boat. If I never need it, great! If I do need it... even better. I hope to god that .270 and the .308 can put down what lurks in upstate NY. Pistol and Carbine are for defense only. |
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That is an SKS not an AR!! |
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And that is a trained bear that is obviously faking it! FAKE! FAKIR!!!!
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one guyt takes a 30-30 lever, one guy takes a 12g pump, every adult takes a sidearm, and best of all take a couple of dogs along if you got them. talk about establishing a perimeter. don't forget the 22lr for plinkin. should a preditor come around, those dogs will probably run the thing off before you can even see it.
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i live here on the oregon coast and hunt the black bear every year.it's thick as crap over here though.i would prefer my winchester model 94 30-30.the 5.56mm round sucks in the brush.
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Hell Yes but placement is critical........ Been there done that, but now that I have never again. 308 is about the smallest. Bear are usually in thick areas and the 5.56 is to pron to deflection from the smallest twigs etc..
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A .22 rim will do it to for all it is worth but bigger is better in some cases.
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its more likely that you will get in a car accident on the way there than encounter angry bear.
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If you want the dogs to die and provoke an animal to attack then go ahead. Not a good idea. I'm going fishing for a week in griz country, I'm taking a 458 socom and my friend is taking a 44 mag with "kodiak" bear loads. You could probably kill a charging bear with 55/62 gr bullet from a AR but you would have to have a shitload of luck to make it happen on a 4" target that is moving. By the time you know the bear is around, you will only be able to get a few shots off, vs all 30. Get a shotgun with slugs. |
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Ahh, a fellow Houndsman. My point exactly. Is your 458 a Tromix?
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I wonder if you used an AR chambered in .308 if that would do the trick? I think I'd like to do that build. I was thinking of buying a S&W .460 Magnum handgun but I can get similar balistics out of the .308 and I like both of them equally.
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Regardless if its 250 lbs or 800lbs if a bear charges you my guess is 1 shot may be all you get off. It won't be a bench shot. You will be shaking, sweating and hoping you can stay still enough to get that 1 round off. So is it a .556,44,.460,500, 1oz 12ga slug or 00 buckshot.
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+1 or any thing 30 cal or higher if neither is available to you 12 guage with 3 inch slugs backed up by 3 inch 000 buck |
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No, Marty built it for me, very accurate, 1 MOA with those big ass bullets. |
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