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Posted: 4/17/2007 3:06:47 AM EST
With what torque should one install a birdcage flash hider onto an A1 11.5" upper?

Thanks in advance.
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Posted: 4/17/2007 3:09:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By zouske:
With what torque should one install a birdcage flash hider onto an A1 11.5" upper?

Thanks in advance.


+1
For me I'd like to know how much CRUSH should be on that washer. Also why is it referred to as "timing" and/or "indexing"?
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Posted: 4/17/2007 8:13:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/17/2007 8:17:40 AM EST by Muskyjerk]
For an A2 bird cage or similar put your crush washer on then hand tighten until tight. then wrench and "crush the washer" until you are "timed" like the face of a clock until the flash hider closed ports are at the 6 o'clock position. A crush washer is set up for (I believe) two revolutions of crushing (maybe more). This is also why you can only use them once.

For an A1 type just wrench it until you have around 30 ft lbs. But I am guessing on that so wait for clarification.
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Posted: 4/17/2007 8:20:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan:
For me I'd like to know how much CRUSH should be on that washer. Also why is it referred to as "timing" and/or "indexing"?


Some flash hiders are designed to work in a specific orientation. For example, with an A2 flash hider the solid area should be on the bottom. Hence the FH must be indexed so that this is the case.

There is no specific torque when using the crush washer. The whole idea is to have a washer that provides an acceptable level of friction over a wide range of rotation, so that the hider can be placed in the acceptable orientation.
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Posted: 4/17/2007 8:28:46 AM EST
I've been thinking that I want to install a FH or comp without torque on the barrel. Believe I can time the FH by sanding the end on wet/dry sandpaper on glass base until threads line up. Then secure with red locktite. Firearm intended to punish paper only. Would this be really stupid, or just moderately so?
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Posted: 4/17/2007 9:41:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/17/2007 9:42:17 AM EST by I-M-A-WMD]

Originally Posted By battlecry:
I've been thinking that I want to install a FH or comp without torque on the barrel. Believe I can time the FH by sanding the end on wet/dry sandpaper on glass base until threads line up. Then secure with red locktite. Firearm intended to punish paper only. Would this be really stupid, or just moderately so?


You'd probably be better of using a peel washer. Instead of sanding your FH, you just peel layers of the washer off until you can index your FH w/ as little torque as you like. The layers of the peel washer are thousandths of an inch. I'm not overly certain just how thin/thick they are but, I prefer the peel washers so I can index them myself w/o going overboard on torque or having a FH I'm not certain is tight enough.

HTH-

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Posted: 4/17/2007 10:43:48 AM EST
Thanks, Sly, I like the idea of the peelwasher. Do you use any locktite with your FH?
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Posted: 4/17/2007 11:15:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/17/2007 11:18:35 AM EST by I-M-A-WMD]

Originally Posted By battlecry:
Thanks, Sly, I like the idea of the peelwasher. Do you use any locktite with your FH?


No, I use a peel washer to properly index the FH while ensuring I apply enough torque to satisfy myself that the FH is on tight w/o applying too much torque. If you want to set yours up w/o much (if any) torque applied to the barrel- you may wish to apply locktite to ensure it doesn't loosen... As I rarely use loctite, I'll pass on the opportunity to throw in my two bits as to the suitability of loctite on a FH. Perhaps there's someone w/ more experience concerning loctite out there because I must admit my knowledge concerning the use of loctite is minimal at best.

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Posted: 4/17/2007 11:22:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By I-M-A-WMD:

No, I use a peel washer to properly index the FH while ensuring I apply enough torque to satisfy myself that the FH is on tight w/o applying too much torque.


+1

I call this method the PDGT method. (Pretty Dog Gone Tight)

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Posted: 4/17/2007 11:50:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Muskyjerk:
For an A2 bird cage or similar put your crush washer on then hand tighten until tight. then wrench and "crush the washer" until you are "timed" like the face of a clock until the flash hider closed ports are at the 6 o'clock position. A crush washer is set up for (I believe) two revolutions of crushing (maybe more). This is also why you can only use them once.

For an A1 type just wrench it until you have around 30 ft lbs. But I am guessing on that so wait for clarification.
Your supposed to turn the FH 2 MORE times after it's tight?! No way! I'm afraid to shoot mine now because I only turned it about 3/4 of a turn after tight to properly time it!
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Posted: 4/17/2007 12:49:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By raygixxer89:

Originally Posted By Muskyjerk:
For an A2 bird cage or similar put your crush washer on then hand tighten until tight. then wrench and "crush the washer" until you are "timed" like the face of a clock until the flash hider closed ports are at the 6 o'clock position. A crush washer is set up for (I believe) two revolutions of crushing (maybe more). This is also why you can only use them once.

For an A1 type just wrench it until you have around 30 ft lbs. But I am guessing on that so wait for clarification.
Your supposed to turn the FH 2 MORE times after it's tight?! No way! I'm afraid to shoot mine now because I only turned it about 3/4 of a turn after tight to properly time it!


You did it right.
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Posted: 4/17/2007 2:22:58 PM EST
15-20 ft/lbs.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=315921
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Posted: 4/18/2007 3:15:21 AM EST
You did it right, I was just saying there is probably 2 revolutions of crush manufactured into the washer.
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Posted: 4/18/2007 8:42:06 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By battlecry:
Thanks, Sly, I like the idea of the peelwasher. Do you use any locktite with your FH?



Locktite at the muzzle will quickly exceed its working temp. and melt off.
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Posted: 4/18/2007 9:32:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By crazymoose:

Originally Posted By battlecry:
Thanks, Sly, I like the idea of the peelwasher. Do you use any locktite with your FH?



Locktite at the muzzle will quickly exceed its working temp. and melt off.


I used peel washers to get "hand tight" only on a Denny's RECON barrel and then added red loctite to hold it in place. When I removed the FS a few hundred rounds later, the red loctite was still there, but it had been reduced to more of a friction additive like the red dot on an A2 buttstock screw. It was worth doing IMHO to maintain the awesome accuracy of the Denny's Recon bbl.
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Posted: 4/18/2007 12:48:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By battlecry:
I've been thinking that I want to install a FH or comp without torque on the barrel. Believe I can time the FH by sanding the end on wet/dry sandpaper on glass base until threads line up. Then secure with red locktite. Firearm intended to punish paper only. Would this be really stupid, or just moderately so?


Just get a Vortex. Hand tighten and that is all....it will tighten itself to where it needds to go.
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Posted: 4/21/2007 4:27:19 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By gregw45:
15-20 ft/lbs.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=315921


Thanks, everyone, that was extremely helpful.

And raises good points concerning other issues I need to explore and learn.
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Posted: 4/21/2007 4:44:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By battlecry:
I've been thinking that I want to install a FH or comp without torque on the barrel. Believe I can time the FH by sanding the end on wet/dry sandpaper on glass base until threads line up. Then secure with red locktite. Firearm intended to punish paper only. Would this be really stupid, or just moderately so?


That would really be stupid. It would be easier to use the correct parts.
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Posted: 4/21/2007 5:09:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By battlecry:
I've been thinking that I want to install a FH or comp without torque on the barrel. Believe I can time the FH by sanding the end on wet/dry sandpaper on glass base until threads line up. Then secure with red locktite. Firearm intended to punish paper only. Would this be really stupid, or just moderately so?


That would really be stupid. It would be easier to use the correct parts.


Maybe i dont underatand you. He is using using the correct parts. He just doesnt want to torque his barrel, sound good to me, but what do i know ive only instaled like 7500 flashhiders.
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Posted: 4/24/2007 9:45:45 AM EST
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Posted: 4/24/2007 11:03:20 AM EST
So what tricks do you use to check the alignment? I thought AtlantaFireman had a neat idea in his Blackthorne thread!

Anybody else use the Popsicle stick test?
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Posted: 4/24/2007 11:05:20 AM EST
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Posted: 5/30/2007 4:27:02 AM EST
Ok so uhhh I did this at home last night. I don't have a vise. That should have been my 1st reason to stop.

So here's the deal, do you folks use a LOOOOOOONG as wrench when screwing on these damn things? I mean HOLY HELL with just my foot and some huevos it's a BITCH to screw that thing on there. 1.5 turns my ass! Maybe a .6 turn!
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Posted: 5/30/2007 7:02:37 AM EST
If your gonna sand the FH, why not sand the crush washer instead? I did and then used about 10-15 lbs of torque to make it line up correct.
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Posted: 5/30/2007 9:27:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sabre223:
If your gonna sand the FH, why not sand the crush washer instead? I did and then used about 10-15 lbs of torque to make it line up correct.


Yeah.... it's bothering the ever lovin' shit out of me. I'm using that Popsicle trick to check my "timing" and the TIME IS OFF BABY. By just a few degrees, but enough to drive my perfectionist mind bananas.

Problem is, 1 I NEED A DAMN VISE. Not this foot on the floor poor man technique. Secondly I need the correct size wrench and not an adjustable one.

(confession time: I'm certain I also put the crush washer on backwards because there was just no way it was going to crush the other way I had it)
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Posted: 5/30/2007 9:39:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan:
Yeah.... it's bothering the ever lovin' shit out of me. I'm using that Popsicle trick to check my "timing" and the TIME IS OFF BABY. By just a few degrees, but enough to drive my perfectionist mind bananas.


Take the popsicle stick out and forget it. The M16A2 technical manual allows for several degrees of +/- in timing the A2 Flash hider. I think a little bit off of TDC is hardcore and proof that you're not KNS pin using geek!
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Posted: 5/30/2007 9:42:02 AM EST
Lots of knowledgeable folks advice against the crush washer.

Can bugger up the shoulder of the barrel, this is a problem if you ever want to go suppressed. Stick with the peel washers.
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Posted: 5/30/2007 9:53:40 AM EST
I've stoned every crush washer I've had in order to get proper timing. I really don't like going over 30ft-lbs on a muzzle device.

I've got one flash suppressor that looks like it was installed with way too much torque. (It wasn't installed by me.) It took a lot of force to remove even after I broke it loose. It didn't look cross threaded or anything. Then when I re-attached it, it took a lot of force to apply. Enough so that the flash suppressor was creating enough friction to get too hot to touch.

My guess was that it was torqued WAY too much and the threads got distorted.
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Posted: 5/30/2007 10:00:33 AM EST
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=7&t=293611
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Posted: 5/30/2007 11:14:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By QUIB:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=7&t=293611


Well I'd venture a guess I went just a tad over a 90 degree turn. But that was with a backwards crush washer. did I mention I used my foot?

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Posted: 5/30/2007 3:24:55 PM EST
I'm just a new guys to AR's but here is how I timed my flash hider with out to much torque. I installed my crush washer and then treaded on my flash hider. I would then see how close or how far off the timing was. I then removed the flash hider and crush washer and taped the washer to the end of a hammer. I then hit the washer on a piece of steel with the amount of force I felt was needed. Then I would install the washer and flash hider and see how close I was. This way I could get the flash hider really close and only have to put a slight amount of torque on the barrel to install it. I finally got sick and tired of messing with timing flash hiders and bought Vortexes for my AR's.
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Posted: 5/31/2007 12:02:17 AM EST
would this torqueing be done with the hand guards off and the barrel in aluminum vice jaws? (was thinking about the barrel turning and messing up the gastube and canting the sight post.

Never done this before.It's just a question within a question.
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Posted: 5/31/2007 12:31:28 AM EST
I clamp the barrel in a padded vice jaw, just aft of the FH.
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Posted: 6/3/2007 8:17:13 AM EST
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Posted: 7/1/2007 6:41:32 PM EST
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Posted: 7/1/2007 6:57:28 PM EST
I am a bit confused about alignment now that I have seen a couple 6920's (?) a leo friend had. The A2's that were on them were aligned so that the middle of the solid area was at about 8 o'clock or so (when looking at them from the front). Both were factory guns. He said it was because when firing the guns wants to rise up and left and the direction of the ports helps direct it down and right.

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Posted: 7/1/2007 7:00:26 PM EST
This is a good thread... I need to get a phantom 5c2 indexed correctly on my xcr...
Here is where is is now:



The wide section needs to go all the way around to the bottom...

I don't have a vice, and trying to turn the bastage with a wrench is extremely awkward,
and I'm in danger of dropping a damn nut every time I try...

Stickman recommended crushing the washer a little in a vice-which I dont have so that's out,
and I was thinking to myself earlier about putting the washer in the freezer

Would I just be better off getting a peel washer?

Oh, also someone remind us which way is the correct (nonbackwards) way to put a crush washer on.
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Posted: 7/1/2007 8:05:54 PM EST
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Posted: 7/1/2007 8:09:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/1/2007 8:14:10 PM EST by AR15barrels]
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Posted: 7/3/2007 12:58:30 AM EST
Victory is mine! I was feeling pretty bored and irritated looking at my non-indexed flash hider, so I took the bastage crush washer off and took it downstairs and threw it in the freezer... I then proceeded to watch 'Shooter,' afterwhich I took the washer and managed to get my 5c2 screwed on correctly with a combo of the shrunk washer and ar15barrels' sit/wrench technique

Look ma, no dropped nut
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