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4/25/2017 7:42:44 PM
Posted: 8/19/2006 4:49:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2006 5:58:00 PM EDT by GlocksareGood]
Stag arms M4 rifle kit (m4 profile 16" 1x9") on a double star lower. Built today.

Was shooting Radway SS109 in it. Made it through 29 rounds in a 30 round mag. Last round loaded about 1/4" short of full chamber and stuck tight. We set it down to let it cool thinking the bolt may come unstuck. After it cooled, it was still stuck so used a cleaning jag to drive the unfired round out of the chamber. After round came out the bolt was still locked back in the upper. At this point we just left the range as it was getting dark.

After we got back home, took a bore light and looked in the chamber. The upper reciever is galled where the carrier key moves in the upper. The bolt is stuck hard and I do not want to mess with it any more if it needs to go back to Stag.

Anyone got any ideas?
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:07:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2006 5:13:00 PM EDT by ChromeLined]
Any pics..the carrier key makes no receiver contact it rides in the charging handle and contacts the tube..I just cant picture it.Is the charging handle damaged?there is a tract the T handle rifdes but I dont think the key makes direct receiver contact.A pic would be great..sure its not the cam pin?Or did the carrier key contact the rear of the receiver where the extension is or buffer tube?...carbine telestock or full size stock and what kind of buffer are you using if its an A2 stock
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:09:48 PM EDT
I just got one of those Stag M4 type uppers from JKIser and it shoots everthing, Wolf, Reloads WWB and a ciener kit just fine .

Seems accurate and feels good.

I can't help.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:20:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2006 5:21:37 PM EDT by Blacksnake]
The lower rails on sides of the carrier key definitely make contact with the upper, you can see where the key has rubbed one side or the other depending on which way the gas tube is tweaked closest to, unless your rifle is absolutely perfect.

Not sure what could physically bind the carrier tight unless the carrier key worked loose and cocked that much and stuck hard, or something else broke and lodged in there such as the cam pin. Lemme think on it a minute.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:33:05 PM EDT
Pictures are hard to take when you can't take the gun apart but here is the best I could do.








Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:38:54 PM EDT
Holy shit! Gas key has gotta be cocked or something else is forcing the carrier/key hard over to that side. Can you look in with a mirror and check out the ejection port side of the carrier key slot? If galled there too then the key is most likely loosened and cocked somehow or something like that???
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:43:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2006 5:47:59 PM EDT by GlocksareGood]
Resized the pics. Looks like the carrier gas key has come loose. Was about 70-80 rounds into its life.

Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:47:07 PM EDT
Bummer. Might be able (with the help of a buddy to ride the charging handle) to reach in there with some thin needle nose pliers or flathead screwdriver and tweak it so the carrier will ride back forward enough to get the gun apart. Will have to nurse over the gas tube too, so probably need someone else to hold the gun/ride the charging handle. It doesn't look like the receiver is yet damaged beyond repair to me. Good luck and sorry man!
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:48:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2006 5:49:08 PM EDT by Blacksnake]
Better still, maybe take the buffer tube off from the back to get the spring pressure off of it and then maybe you can wiggle it (the carrier) some from there too???
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:50:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blacksnake:
Bummer. Might be able (with the help of a buddy to ride the charging handle) to reach in there with some thin needle nose pliers or flathead screwdriver and tweak it so the carrier will ride back forward enough to get the gun apart. Will have to nurse over the gas tube too, so probably need someone else to hold the gun/ride the charging handle. It doesn't look like the receiver is yet damaged beyond repair to me. Good luck and sorry man!



Well I was thinking that if this rifle has to go back to Stag i would not screw with it anymore. They are the professional. They can take it apart however they need to. I will contact the seller and see what he says about it.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:52:17 PM EDT
True. Best wishes man!
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 5:57:06 PM EDT
blown primer maybe? can't believe the key got that loose without any previous signs of cycling problems. i don't shoot radway but have heard of issues.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 6:05:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By conman:
blown primer maybe? can't believe the key got that loose without any previous signs of cycling problems. i don't shoot radway but have heard of issues.


Did not see any blown primers. Only feed problems was a combo of Short stroking and an old 20 round mag with a weak spring. It had made it through the 30 round mag that came with it fine. This was the last round of that mag.

Link Posted: 8/19/2006 6:17:03 PM EDT
pull the stock & tube off, should give you access to the carrier. keep an eye on springs & pins.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 6:39:13 PM EDT
Last time I saw something like that a primer had blown and lodged itself in the hole in the carrier the cam pin rides in. Locked the gun up tight.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 7:15:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2006 7:29:59 PM EDT by GlocksareGood]

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Last time I saw something like that a primer had blown and lodged itself in the hole in the carrier the cam pin rides in. Locked the gun up tight.



Would that cause the bolt carrier key to be galling the upper receiver? That bright line in the pictures is from what looks like the key cutting into the receiver.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 7:36:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GlocksareGood:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Last time I saw something like that a primer had blown and lodged itself in the hole in the carrier the cam pin rides in. Locked the gun up tight.



Would that cause the bolt carrier key to be galling the upper receiver? That bright line in the pictures is from what looks like the key cutting into the receiver.


If memory serves, in the case of the gun I saw, the primer lodged in the hole in front of the cam pin keeping the bolt pushed into the carrier as if it were locked into the barrel extension. What this does is keeps the edge of the cam pin stuck out to the side. The damage was very similar to yours. Most of the damage was caused by us trying to force the carrier back not knowing the cam pin was digging into the side of the receiver.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 8:07:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2006 8:09:32 PM EDT by SamColt]

Originally Posted By GlocksareGood:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Last time I saw something like that a primer had blown and lodged itself in the hole in the carrier the cam pin rides in. Locked the gun up tight.



Would that cause the bolt carrier key be galling the upper receiver? That bright line is from what looks to be the key cutting into the receiver.


Blown primer - Did you say it was a failure to feed?

Cutting into the receiver? Have you tried pulling back on the charging handle and see if the bolt carrier will travel rearward anymore? I think your carrier key is cocked to one side and it has gouged the receiver and it's hung up on a little burr and wont travel forward. The pictures are tough to tell - I would certainly do some more inspection/fiddling before I sent it back but that's just me. What kind of shape is the gas tube in? Good shape and perfectly centered in the key way?

SC

ETA: I see what he is saying about the primer. Sure would like to get this solved with out it being sent back.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 9:23:35 PM EDT
Could be an improperly staked key if you are using a CMT BCG. They are know for that.
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 9:33:55 PM EDT
stag improperly stakes their key, they do it from the top and it's made to be keyed from the side so metal goesinto the grooves of the bolts. Send it back and stake the key properly when it gets back; also the radways powder burns at a rate that does best in a 20", haveing problems with it in a Bbl length shorter than 20" is common, not problems like you have thats the key
Link Posted: 8/19/2006 9:50:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GlocksareGood:

Originally Posted By Blacksnake:
Bummer. Might be able (with the help of a buddy to ride the charging handle) to reach in there with some thin needle nose pliers or flathead screwdriver and tweak it so the carrier will ride back forward enough to get the gun apart. Will have to nurse over the gas tube too, so probably need someone else to hold the gun/ride the charging handle. It doesn't look like the receiver is yet damaged beyond repair to me. Good luck and sorry man!



Well I was thinking that if this rifle has to go back to Stag i would not screw with it anymore. They are the professional. They can take it apart however they need to. I will contact the seller and see what he says about it.


+1 on the second comment, send it back they will give you a new unmarked one.
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 4:18:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GlocksareGood:
Well I was thinking that if this rifle has to go back to Stag i would not screw with it anymore. They are the professional. They can take it apart however they need to. I will contact the seller and see what he says about it.


I would send back to Stag just the way the rifle is now. They will need to be able to analyze the failure with all parts in the last failed condition. If the bolt carrier key came loose, would this do the damage to the receiver as pictured?

Jeff

Link Posted: 8/20/2006 5:31:30 AM EDT
The mate up of the carrier key and the gas tube looks fine from what I can see. There is no buldge in either part. That shinny line inside the upper is coming from the gas carrier key edge. You can see it shaving off metal in the upper as I drove the bolt back with the round almost chambered.

The last round of the mag never chambered. It was 3/8" short of the bolt closing. I will wait to hear from the Dealer here/Stag to see what they want me to do before I try to free the bolt up and get it out.

I had shot the radway in my RRA 16" CAR and my 20". Not a problem with either one of those.
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 4:53:16 PM EDT
Rifle is being sent back to Stag. After looking at it more, the bolt is extended so the cam pin had to have moved foward. I can see AL being cut off the side on the upper receiver where the bolt carrier key is hitting it.

Will let you all know what stag says. Thanks for the info!

Link Posted: 10/6/2006 6:51:46 PM EDT
I have a Stag model 2H upper that had the key bolts loosen and damage the key. here BUT....the new carrier key bolts were staked the same exact way....
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 6:32:59 AM EDT
havent heard of radway being overpowered, especially enough to blow a primer. a previous round could have been set back and created enough pressure to blow a primer. did you save all the brass you fired? check it for missing primers if you have it. that way if stag says its the ammo you can try to deal with that. it probably is the carrier though. theyll probably replace it and not say anything.
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 6:43:22 AM EDT
You should always check the key screws prior to using a new BC. Stags are not staked properly, so they need to be staked.
Link Posted: 10/8/2006 8:04:14 AM EDT
I have one that I am sending back also. The front sight base is canted to the right, cannot zero it as sight adjustment is to it's limits and way out of whack. With the top rail empty and looking at it from the rear, the top rail itself is sloped down to the left as compaired to the front sight base.....
Link Posted: 10/8/2006 10:47:53 AM EDT
Did you put this "kit" together yourself ? It looks like the gas key came loose, did you happen to notice if is was properly staked ?
Link Posted: 10/8/2006 2:51:57 PM EDT
No i did not check the staking at the time. I put together two of these builds for friends at the same time. Needless to say I re-staked the second gun before we shot! It's BC had to go back due to it being slick sided. They replaced the BC and sent it back.

Stag fixed the first one but I have not seen seen what they did to it. Hoping to make it down this coming weekend to check out the rifle and re-stake the gas key. I made a staking tool out of an old punch and a grinder. Works very nicely. Stake it from the side and good to go.

Link Posted: 10/8/2006 6:00:35 PM EDT
Good luck. I've had the same problem with my stag upper purchased in june. I sent it back to stag, on my dime, and got it back still screwed up. I'm not impressed with stag at all.



Originally Posted By jdixon22:
I have one that I am sending back also. The front sight base is canted to the right, cannot zero it as sight adjustment is to it's limits and way out of whack. With the top rail empty and looking at it from the rear, the top rail itself is sloped down to the left as compaired to the front sight base.....
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