Posted: 4/24/2006 11:06:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2017 5:09:36 PM EDT by Molon]
The Trouble With 3Shot Groups
(The Distant Prequel to The Trouble With Tribbles) As our story begins, we find our Hero sitting down at the shooting bench on the 100 yard line at his local range. Our Hero is a real Internet Commando. He has watched the movie Heat 87 times, is registered on all of the important Internet firearms forums, knows the difference between a "clip” and a "magazine” and attends every local gun show without fail. His latest acquisition from the local gun show is a 16” barreled Frankengun that originally belonged to a Delta Force operator who was at the Battle of Mogadishu. (He could tell you the name of the operator, but then he’d have to k……well, you know.) The seller at the gun show let our Hero in on another secret too. Eugene Stoner himself helped the Delta operator assemble this particular AR15. Our hero settles into position on the bench and fires his first 3shot group. (He only fires 3shot groups because everyone from the Internet knows that you only have to fire 3shot groups to test the accuracy of your rifle and ammunition.) His first group forms a nice little triangle at the bottom of the 10ring. Our Hero just knew this was going to be a good day. After all, he was using that XM193 ammunition. A former SEAL who was selling beef jerky at the gun show had told our Hero that the SEALs used ammo just like XM193 in Viet Nam and that a single shot in the buttocks from this ammo would "blow your head clean off!” At the cease fire our Hero checks his first target. (Our Hero’s targets are NRA High Power type targets reduced for 100 yards. The Xring measures 1.5” and the 10ring measures 3.5”). Much to his satisfaction, his first group measures 1.16”, almost minute of angle! Now most Internet Commando wannabees would have stopped right there and gone home and spent the next 3 hours posting threads on the internet about their great accomplishment, but not our Hero. He makes the decision….to fire a second group! group one Our Hero has read reports of other Internet Commandos who have been able to achieve subminute of angle groups using XM193. After all, this ammo uses "Full Metal Jacket” bullets and is made to "Milspec.” Our Hero carefully watches the benchrest shooter three lanes down (who monitors the wind conditions on the range using a Wind Probe) and only fires immediately after the benchrester does. He does this for three shots and then checks his target at the next cease fire. Our Hero measures this target three times just to be sure. The group measures 0.93”! Hooah, a subminute of angle group! Our Hero is now one of the few, the proud, the real Internet Commandos who can claim to shoot subminute of angle groups using XM193! group two There’s just one little problem with that second group our Hero fired. It is centered in a different location on the target than the first one. The second group is centered 0.12” above the center of the target and the first group is centered 1.44” below the center of the target. Hmmm… Well our Hero is a real Internet Commando so he can’t let details bother him. After all, subminute of angle is subminute of angle! As our Hero starts to pack up his targets, something in the back of his mind starts to nag at him. He recalls the reports of the other Internet Commandos. They didn’t just shoot subminute of angle groups with XM193; they did it "all day long.” Well, not wishing to be looked down upon by the other Internet Commandos our Hero decides to shoot one more 3shoot group. After all, if his carbine and ammo could shoot two, subminute of angle groups, they could surely do it "all day long.” So, our Hero settles back into position and again taking his cue from the benchrester fires a third 3shot group. Upon retrieving his third target and measuring the group our Hero can not believe his eyes. The group measures 2.5”! How can this be possible? He was using XM193 and not just any XM193. It was the fabled LOT #3, the most accurate and hard to come by of all the lots, yet this third group was larger than the first two groups combined! Hmmm… Our Hero wonders how he can ever show his avatar on an Internet forum again after firing such a group with XM193. group three Then, slowly our Hero starts to recall a word he has heard mentioned many times before on his favorite Internet forum. It starts with the letter F. Hmm . . .F . . .Fl . . . Flyer! That’s it, flyer! That low shot down at seven o’clock on the target is a flyer! It’s not the fault of the gun or the ammo, it’s a flyer. It's caused by user error, the loose nut behind the stock, the wind, the sun or any other excuse that can be dreamt of in your philosophy, but not the rifle or ammo. The flyer is something to be discounted as if it never happened. (Why be concerned with reality when you are an Internet Commando?) Since that shot is discounted, why not discount that whole group as if it never happened? (After all, isn’t that what an Internet Commando does?) Our Hero decides to discount the entire group and throws the target in the trash. He makes a solemn vow to never mention this group to anyone. After all, he is a real Internet Commando. Upon returning home our Hero makes all the usual posts on the Internet about his subminute of angle groups using XM193. True to his solemn vow, he makes no mention of his 2.5” group. At no time does he mention that these groups were 3shot groups. Nor does he make any mention of the fact that the groups were centered in different locations on the target. Our Hero ends his day wondering if his grandson, or greatgrandson or even great greatgrandson will remember the accomplishments of the real Internet Commandos or if their contributions to the shooting world will eventually be lost in time? He even wonders what his progeny might someday be named, James or possibly Tiberius? Hmmm… Dedicated to DKProf for his shining example of "truth in accuracy reporting" in these two threads: How Accurate is XM193? Apparently, I suck at shooting. .... While the fable above is obviously fiction, the examples of targets shown are based on a real target of a 10shot group fired from 100 yards using XM193. When all of the 3shot groups from above are overlayed on a single target you see a much truer example of the limitations of the rifle and ammo. The gap made by the socalled “flyer” is filled in by the other seven shots of the whole group. You can see that when the first 3shot group (which is centered 1.5” below the second 3shot group) is displayed with the second 3shot group you are actually seeing a much better indication of the total dispersion of the rifle and ammo combination. Most people fail to mention that their 3shot groups are impacting at different locations on the target. This is why 10shot groups are a much better indicator of a the radial dispersion of a rifle/ammunition combination. the real target Rick Jamison, the author of the Precision Reloading column in Shooting Times magazine approaches accuracy testing in a scientific manner. He uses a machine rest for testing and fires 10shot groups. Here are his own words on the subject from one of his articles: "There are stories of a single bullet that for no explained reason flies out of what might have been a tight cluster. This often occurs with a threeshot string and many times with a fiveshot string. If you're lucky enough to fire a group without a flier, you can end up with a very tight group. However, usually what happens if another five or seven shots are fired to complete a 10shot string, other bullets fill in the space between the main group and the flier to make a reasonably rounded group. Ten shots are a more reliable indicator when it comes to predicting what a load is likely to do in the future. The problem with 10shot groups is that when you report them, everyone thinks you aren't shooting very well or that the ammunition is not good because the group sizes are so much larger than three or fiveshot groups. Also, when we're firing three or fiveshot groups with a flier, it is only natural to assume that it was caused by a flinch or “pulling” the shot. Therefore, since the flier was our own fault, the tendency is to eliminate it from any reporting of group size." machine rest .... Here’s another example demonstrating that 3shot groups do not provide a valid indicator of the radial dispersion of a rifle/ammunition combination. The test vehicle for this demonstration was a one of my AR15s that has a freefloated Colt HBAR and is wearing a Leupold 3.510X40 LR/T. Prior to beginning this demonstration, I fired a 10shot control group at a distance of 50 yards using a handload topped with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing. The target used is an NRA High Power type target reduced for 50 yards. The Xring measures 0.75" and the 10ring measures 1.75". The 10shot control group had an extreme spread of 0.493”. Next, I fired a couple of 3shot groups from 50 yards using Federal XM193 ammunition. (Shooting was conducted at an indoor range, so wind was not a variable in this case.) The two targets are pictured below. The center of the first 3shot group was located approximately ¼ MOA high and ½ MOA to the right of the center of the target, which was the pointofaim. However, the center of the second 3shot group was located approximately 1.5 MOA low and ½ MOA to the left of the center of the target. The centers of just these two, 3shot groups are almost 2 MOA apart in elevation. The centers of the individual 3shot groups are indicated below by the blue crosses. I actually fired a total of ten, 3shot groups in a row with the XM193 ammunition for a total of thirty shots. Thirty occurrences of something that is being studied is what the statistics types like to refer to as a "large sample." Using the RSI Shooting Lab software program I was able to overlay all ten of the 3shot groups on each other for a 30shot composite group. This 30shot composite group gives us a much better picture of the radial dispersion of the rifle/ammunition combination (and in this case particularly the ammunition) than 3shot groups by themselves do. These 30 shots also give us give us a much better indication of where the center of the pointsofimpact are. .... The ten, 3shot groups that were fired in a row for the above demonstration measured (from smallest to largest): 0.40” 0.57” 0.64” 0.74” 0.80” 0.85” 1.03” 1.13” 1.19” 1.54” The variation between the smallest and largest group above is 74%! In addition to firing the ten, 3shot groups listed above, I also fired three, 10shot groups in a row from 50 yards for another thirty rounds of XM193. The groups measured (from smallest to largest): 1.24” 1.46” 1.97” The variation between the smallest and largest of these three groups is only 37%. Using the same total number of rounds in a set, but firing one set using ten, 3shot groups and the other using three, 10shot groups shows that the group to group variation of the 10shot groups is far less than that of the 3shot groups, half as much in this case. This shows again that 10shot groups are a more consistent indicator of the radial dispersion of a rifle/ammunition combination or as Rick Jamison stated, “Ten shots are a more reliable indicator when it comes to predicting what a load is likely to do in the future.” Here is another quote about 3shot groups from another Precision Reloading article by Rick Jamison. “Some shooters may have two or three threeshot groups to prove the load is really accurate. It really takes more shooting than that to make a judgment on a load’s accuracy potential. Three shots forming a tight cluster is nice to look at, but it is little more than an accident. Shooting threeshot groups to see how everything is working is essentially a waste of time and components.” .... Before I can continue with The Trouble With 3Shot Groups, I need to define the concept of “mean radius” (also called average group radius.) A PRIMER ON THE MEAN RADIUS The mean radius is a method of measurement of the dispersion of shotgroups that takes into account every shot in the group. It provides a more useful analysis of the consistency of ammunition and firearms (accuracy/precision) than the commonly used method of extreme spread. The typical method used to measure a group consists of measuring the distance between the centers of the two most outlying shots of a group. This would be the “extreme spread” of the group. We are essentially measuring the distance between the two worst shots of a group. Take a look at the two targets below. Most people would intuitively conclude that the second target shown is the “better” group. Measuring the two groups using the extreme spread method, we find that both groups measure 2.1”. Once again with the typical method of measuring groups we are measuring the distance between the two worst shots of the group. This method tells us nothing about the other eight shots in the group. So how can we quantitatively show that the second group is better than the first? (Yes, we could score the groups using “Xring” count, but this does not give us any differential information about all those shots in the Xring.) This is were the mean radius method comes in. It will give us that extra information we need to better analyze our groups, rifles and ammuntion. If I just reported the measurements of the two groups above using the extreme spread meathod, without a picture, you would assume that the two groups were very much the same. Using the mean radius method shows that the second group is much more consistent. It has a mean radius of 0.43” compared to 0.78” for the first group. Mean radius as defined in Hatcher's Notebook “is the average distance of all the shots from the center of the group. It is usually about one third the group diameter (extreme spread)” for 10shot groups. To obtain the mean radius of a shot group, measure the heights of all shots above an arbitrarily chosen horizontal line. Average these measurements. The result is the height of the center of the group above the chosen line. Then in the same way get the horizontal distance of the center from some vertical line, such as for instance, the left edge of the target. These two measurements will locate the group center. Now measure the distance of each shot from this center. The average of these measures is the mean radius. Once you get the hang of measuring groups using the mean radius it becomes very simple to do. While being very simple to do, it is also very time consuming. Modern software programs such as RSI Shooting Lab make determining the mean radius a snap. The picture below is a screen snapshot from RSI Shooting Lab. The red cross is the center of the group (a little high and right of the aiming point). The long red line shows the two shots forming the extreme spread or group size. The yellow line from the red cross to one of the shots is a radius. Measure all the radii and take the average to obtain the mean radius. Mean Radius Demonstration Let’s say you fired a 5shot group from 100 yards and the resulting target looks like this. (The Xring measures 1.5” and the 10ring measures 3.5”.) The extreme spread of the group measures 2.83”, but we want to find the mean radius (or average group radius.) In order to find the mean radius we must first find the center of the group. By “eyeballing” the target most people would see that the group is centered to the left of the “Xring” and probably a little high, but we need to find the exact location of the center of the group. Locating the Center of the Group The first step in finding the center of the group is to find the lowest shot of the group and draw a horizontal line through the center of that shot. Next, find the leftmost shot of the group and draw a vertical line through the center of that shot. Now measure the distance from the horizontal line to the other four shots of the group that are above that line. Add those numbers together and divide by the total number of shots in the group (5). 2.50” + 1.03” + 2.01” + 1.30” = 6.84” Divide by 5 to get 1.37”. This number is the elevation component of the center of the group. Next we need to find the windage component of the center of the group. From the vertical line, measure the distance to the other four shots of the group that are to the right of the line. Add those numbers together and again divide by the total number of shots in the group (5). 1.76” + 2.54” + 0.45” + 1.19” = 5.94” Divide by 5 to get 1.19” This is the windage component of the center of the group. Finding the windage and elevation components of the center of the group is the most difficult part of this process. Once that is done the rest of the process is a piece of cake. Using the windage and elevation components, locate the position on the target that is 1.37” (elevation component) above the horizontal line and 1.19” (windage component) to the right of the vertical line. This location is the center of the group! Determining the Mean Radius Now that we have located the position of the center of the group, the first step in determining the mean radius is to measure the distance from the center of the group to the center of one of the shots. This line is a single “radius”. Now measure the distance from the center of the group to the center of each of the rest of the shots in the group. Add the measurements of all the radii together and then divide by the total number of shots in the group (5). 0.85” + 1.35” + 1.38” + 0.84” + 1.61” = 6.03” Divide by 5 to get 1.21”. This is the mean radius (or average group radius) of the group! Using the mean radius measurement to scribe a circle around the center of the group gives you a graphic representation of the mean radius. This shows the average accuracy of all the shots in the group. This demonstrates why the mean radius is much more useful than the extreme spread in evaluating the accuracy of our rifles and ammunition. Overlaying the targets of at least three, 10shot groups fired in a row and determining the mean radius of the composite group gives us a statistically powerful tool for evaluating the radial dispersion of a rifle/ammunition combination. The table below will give you an idea of the relationship between the mean radius and extreme spread for 10shot groups. Here are some interesting quotes pertaining to the mean radius from old issues of American Rifleman: “Mean radius is the mean distance of bullet impacts from center of the test group. It is used in government ammunition acceptance because it takes account of every shot and comes close to maximizing the test information. While there is no exact relationship between this measure and the simpler and more convenient group diameter, the 10shot group diameter averages slightly over 3 times the mean radius.” "These examples illustrate the sensitiveness of the extreme spread to number of shots in the group. Indeed, as the table indicates, the measures made to only the outside shots of the group, e.g. the extreme spread, are very sensitive to number of shots, while the measures made to all the shots, e.g. the mean radius are far less so. It may be added that the latter measures are also less variable in their representation of the group; they are more efficient. This explains why the target testing of U.S. military rifle ammunition is by mean radius." .... As explained previously, the mean radius method of measuring groups gives us information about each shot in the group, not just the two worst shots of the group as is the case when measuring the extreme spread. The following comparisons will be made using the mean radius of the different groups. Besides doing a 30shot composite group formed from the ten, 3shot groups fired in a row with XM193 as shown above, I also compiled a 30shot composite group formed from the three, 10shot groups fired in row. Here they are, side by side for comparison. The 30shot composite group formed from the ten, 3shot groups has a mean radius of 0.45” (indicated by the inner blue circle.) The 30shot composite group formed from the three,10shot groups has a mean radius of 0.42” (also indicated by the inner blue circle.) Finally, I compiled a 60shot composite group formed from all of the above groups. The mean radius of the 60shot composite group is 0.44”. This sixtyshot composite group gives us a fairly definitive idea of what we can expect from the rifle/ammunition combination in question when fired from 50 yards. Just as importantly, this demonstrates that the thirtyshot composite groups come quite close to the same results as the 60shot composite group; differing by only a couple onehundredths of an inch in mean radius from the 60shot composite group. .... Since the mean radius method of measuring groups gives us a better picture of what is occuring with all the shots in the group, we can use the mean radius measurements to get more accurate comparisons between groups. The mean radii of the ten, 3shot groups from above are as follows (from smallest to largest): 0.17” 0.23” 0.25” 0.30” 0.32” 0.32” 0.46” 0.50” 0.50” 0.69” The 3shot groups have a variation of 75% from smallest to largest! The mean radii of the three, tenshot groups from above measure (from smallest to largest): 0.34” 0.39” 0.50” The mean radii of the 10shot groups only have a group to group variation of 32%, less than half that of the 3shot groups. Once again this shows the vastly improved consistency of 10shot groups compared to 3shot groups. If you recall from the above post, the sixtyshot composite group had a mean radius of .44”. Look at how much closer the mean radii of the individual 10shot groups come to the mean radius of the sixtyshot composite group than the mean radii of the 3shot groups do. The mean radius of the 30shot composite group formed from overlaying the three 10shot groups on each other is even closer. Consistency and a high degree of predictability are what make the use of 10shot groups (particularly three,10shot groups fired in a row) far superior to 3shot groups in evaluating the precision of our rifles and ammunition! .... Here is a final demonstration that further illustrates and reinforces all the concepts previously presented. Using one of my AR15s that has a freefloated Colt HBAR, I fired five, 10shot groups from 100 yards using a handload topped with 55 grain FMJ bullets. The five 10shot groups were overlayed on each other to produce a 50round composite group with a mean radius of 0.70”. The average extreme spread for all five groups was 2.30”. I then proceeded to fire another 50 rounds of the same handload in 3shot groups, for a total of sixteen, 3shot groups (with an extra 2shot group at the end.) Several of the groups were subMOA. group #06: 0.66” group #12: 0.92” group #13: 0.59” group #15: 0.41” group #16: 0.63” However, several other groups had extreme spreads of well over 2”. group #02: 2.53” group #07: 2.89” group #08: 2.39” group #09: 2.86” group #11: 2.47” Those who espouse the use of 3shot groups for evaluating the radial dispersion of a rifle/ammunition combination like to point to the smallest 3shot groups for their accuracy claims and then pretend that all those large 3shot groups don’t exist. The average extreme spread for all sixteen of the 3shot groups was 1.72”. Also, the statistical centers of many of the groups, (both large and small) were located at different locations on the target. Pictured below is the first 3shot group of the 55 grain FMJ load and beneath that the first three, 3shot groups overlayed on each other. As we continue to sequentially overlay the 3shot groups on each, the pieces of the puzzle begin to fill in the gaps giving us a more complete view of the entire picture. Finally, when all of the 50 rounds fired in 3shot groups have been overlayed on each other, we have a composite group that is remarkably similar in radial dispersion to the 50 round composite group formed from the five 10shot groups. Here’s the only target from the above shooting session that the Internet Commando would have posted. Remember, all the data for the above examples were obtained during livefire testing from my benchrest setup, not from computed generated models that fail to demonstrate a correlation with actual realworld data. .... Institutions and organizations that buy enormous amounts of ammunition and weapons are far more interested in facts, than sales hype and propaganda and most of them demand that accuracy/precision testing be conducted using 10shot groups. This includes the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Crane Naval Surface Warfare Center, the US Army Marksmanship Unit and the US military’s acceptance testing of both 5.56mm ammunition and weapons. On the other hand, businesses that use 3shot groups for making their accuracy claims are usually trying to sell something. .... At the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, USA Shooting Team members Launi Meili and Robert Foth won the gold and silver medals in the threeposition rifle events. The Olympians used the new Federal Gold Medal ammunition to aid them in obtaining their victories. This was the first time in more than 30 years that an American won an Olympic medal in one of the small bore shooting events while using Americanmade ammunition. It’s interesting to note that pertaining to the accuracy/precision development and multifaceted testing of the Federal ammunition that helped the US Olympians win gold and silver medals in Barcelona, Federal’s Director of Product Engineering, Dave Longren, had this to say: 'The standard test string was three 10shot groups, with the most attention paid to the 30shot composite. "When you’re working at this level, the traditional five 5shot group test simply doesn’t give you statistically valid results.”'* * Hunnicutt, Robert. “Ammo Good as Gold.” American Rifleman Nov. 1992: 3233, 7273. Print. ..... "We all use math every day. To predict weather, to tell time, to handle money  math is more than formulas and equations; it's logic, it's rationality. It's using your mind to solve the greatest mysteries we know." Charlie Eppes from NUMB3RS . . . and it helps us evaluate and improve our riflecraft. Molon ......... 


Cool.



Excellent.



Excellent post!



Ahhhhhh......the truth shall set U free!
Good post! 


Oh come on. Shoot one shot groups. Outside edge to outside edge will be around .224. Top that!
Woody 

Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est

Yay  I'm famous! I was actually thinking about this EXACT thing when I was on the range about a week and a half ago. When I'm shooting a 10shot group, I'm sometimes struck how "nice" it looks when I'm only 3 shots into it, so I stopped at 3 shots at a particularly nicelooking one when I was at the range, and then shot a regular 10shot group after that. Here's the pic: The 3shot group is on the main (large) ring and measures about 3/8 of an inch (i.e. less than 1/2 MOA)  but when I fired 10 shots on the top right ring, the group is about 1 3/4 inch. It illustrates Molon's point really nicely. When I shoot a bunch of 10shot groups, I'm lucky to average about 1 1/2 inch groups  but if I stopped at 3 round, and SELECTED which groups to measure, I could easily claim to shoot 1/2 groups. 

This isn't a democracy, it's a cheerocracy !

Excuse me sir. I dont know who you think you are but I am the one and only true internet commando and my AK15 will shoot sub .5 moa all day long, the trick is using the top of my laptop as a benchrest.
jls7 


Great info! I have always taken 7 shot groups and up since I always tell myself that 3 shots cant be a measure of accuracy.



LOL! Great post, funny and informative.
You deserve a beer 

Shoot Straight
and visit www.MDAR15.com 
It's a great shame Rick is no longer writing for Shooting Times...
his articles will still appear for some time, until they run out of pieces they have on hand from him already..... good info....... 



yup three shot groups suck. For testing reloads I switched to 5 shot groups a long time ago. If you muff one shot you have no idea if that load is great or crap. True accuracy testing starts with 10 shot groups.


"You will know you are in a nuclear attack by the bright flash, loud explosion, widespread destruction, intense heat, strong winds and the rising of a mushroom cloud."  Rand Corporation Pocket Edition Survival Guide

great info, thanks Molon!




Great post! The only time I shoot three shot groups is if I've just installed an optic or rezeroing an optic and I'm trying to get an idea of where the bullets are hitting.


Better to have and not need than need and not have

Cool post.



ACtually, when I developed that load above, I used 5 shot groups, and incremented powder by .2 grains. It was cool to see the group get smaller, then progressively bigger. Found my sweet spot, and voila, I be happy. TXL 



That's an outstanding group!



Nurturing Socialist. Now, new and improved!
TX, USA

GREAT post Molon.
This should be tacked.... if not for a just a while. 
FREE 1GUNRUNNER!

KISS



The more shots you fire in a group, the closer you come to the actual statistical accuracy specification of the ammo.
M193 is designed and loaded to shoot about 2"2.5" 10shot groups at 100yds out of a military barrel. Chances are that if you shoot 10 rounds in a group with M193, you will get groups in that size range, because that is the specification of the ammo you are using(in a military barrel). Also, the more shots you fire in a group, the more chance you have of showing flaws in your shooting ability too. So these things add up. A better judge of accuracy would be to use matchgrade ammo that is known to be loaded consistently, and is known to shoot consistently. Then you'd be more likely able to judge your rifle's accuracy, or your shooting ability. 

MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 14237469019 or email twlyons@juno.com 
I still wonder why some gunwriters & such are content with a tight group, well away from the center.
Like adjust the sight and knock the bull out...then measure? To me, a sloppier group dead centered would serve me better that a tight one elsewhere on the paper, with "windage" being more important than "elevation" throughout the various ranges. Being old and set in my ways, hit me with the memo I missed, gently. 


Because they are testing for rifle accuracy not the ability to read wind or dial in zeros for different ammo types. If they rezero for a 5mph cross wind what does that prove? Nothing. It only allows them to tak a picture with rounds in the bull and that has no real value or meaning. It s wasted time that could be used to test the next load. Rezeroing for each load you are testing is silly IMO. I see no reason to do it. I would find the most accurate group then rezero for that one. What you suggest just creates a lot of unneeded work and wastes time.
You are suggesting that you would fire 5 types of ammo and the one that was sloopy group but dead center would be your choice? Makes little sense. Find the smallest group then rezero that one and none of the others. 


.



Nurturing Socialist. Now, new and improved!
TX, USA



FREE 1GUNRUNNER!

It's a 20" WOA barrel w. free float & bipod on an Armalite/Eagle lower  shooting Black Hills 69gr blue box. My shooting isn't great or anything but I just thought the four groups really illustrated Molon's point perfectly. 

This isn't a democracy, it's a cheerocracy !

Im terribly embarassed to say I shoot 3 shot groups all the time. I guess I have reason to try something a little more challenging now.


FDCC  1*
FL Defensive Carbine Club; www.fdcc.us/ Go chrome or go home! 
I want to know more about that machine rest. How about more pictures, a web site, anything!


"Cool! I'm gonna get killed by a Ninja!"

These shots are all with iron sights, right?


"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
 Thomas Paine 
Great topic, my next visit to the range will definitely involve shooting 10 shot groups.
regards, Luis Leon 


Mine were with a Leupold VARIX III. 



Nurturing Socialist. Now, new and improved!
TX, USA

Feels GREAT dont it? I love shooting for groups. I can totally see how people get hooked on the BR crowd. 

FREE 1GUNRUNNER!

Nurturing Socialist. Now, new and improved!
TX, USA

You are a good shooter. 

FREE 1GUNRUNNER!

Nurturing Socialist. Now, new and improved!
TX, USA

NICE! 

FREE 1GUNRUNNER!

When I'm adjusting, I usually shoot 3shot groups, but once I'm satisfied with the zero I always shoot a few 10shots for "confirmation". Now that my carbine's complete (for now, you know how it is), the first thing I do when I get set up, is shoot a couple of 10rd groups, just to verify the zero.



I wanted to see what the rifle can actually do since I put a $1200 scope on the thing. I was very happy to shoot that group. Especially since I didn't have a match barrel on it. I have a problem because I like to try and shoot tight groups, but I don't want to pay for the expensive match ammo. In either case I am happy with my rifle but it needs a PRS soon. 


I've looked through more than 30 back issues of Shooting Times so far trying to find a better picture of the machine rest but still no luck. Anyone with back issues of Shooting Times can try checking the "Precision Reloading" column to see if they can find a better picture. 


If you are sighting a weapon in, its still the way to go. 

Stick
sales@nwtactical.net www.nwtactical.net www.rainierarms.com (253) 8930101 Office (253) 8591023 FAX (253) 6537522 Cell 
Nurturing Socialist. Now, new and improved!
TX, USA

I am the same, hence, I started reloading. 

FREE 1GUNRUNNER!

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject  Winston Churchill
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.  Oscar Wilde 
Assuming the lines on your target form a 1" grid, your groups measure 1.62" and 1.69". Good shooting!



Thanks, but not as good as my nickel and dime sized 3shot groups.


A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject  Winston Churchill
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.  Oscar Wilde 
Welcome to my world! 

This isn't a democracy, it's a cheerocracy !

AR15.COM is the world’s largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 19962017 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.