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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:26:09 AM EDT
Does anyone have any comments about the comparison in stopping power (lethality) between the 5.56 and the .308? I have my AR for home defense but continue to hear negative comments about its' ability to lay a guy down with one shot. I have not had real world experience with "putting a man down", but it is my opinion from range practice, that I would not want to be on the receiving end of one of my rounds.

Thoughts?

thanks guys,
Degreeone
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:33:33 AM EDT
.223 = Very Lethal
.308 = More Lethal

Shot Placement my good man.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:40:16 AM EDT
BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED FROM CIVILIAN USE
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:40:31 AM EDT
MOCOMAN

THANKS...........ANY SUGGESTIONS ON YOUR SHELL PREFERENCE?DEGREEONE
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:42:40 AM EDT
With FMJ the 5.56 is close to the 7.62
With soft points the 5.56 is not close to the 7.62
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:43:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan:
...

Shot Placement my good man.



Agreed. That is the most important aspect of wounding. A .223 will kill something just as dead as a .308 if they both hit vitals. .308 is far superior at wounding if you need to go through a barrier. For general home defense I'd go with an AR loaded with 75-77 gr. rounds, if your rifle/carbine has a fast enough twist to shoot them well. MJD
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:43:22 AM EDT
BECAUSE?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:45:10 AM EDT
1:9 TWIST GOOD ENOUGH?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:48:00 AM EDT
www.ammo-oracle.com--this might help

the energy dump/wound cavity of a .308 is almost twice that of a 5.56

both will FUBAR you....but if you want the extra range/energy--go w/ the .308

the 5.56, imo, is kinda finky--it needs sufficient velocity to fragment (its main method of killing) in soft tissue; penetration through barriers is also less
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:48:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DEGREEONE:
1:9 TWIST GOOD ENOUGH?



IF YOU ARE SERIOUS, PLEASE READ THIS THEN COME BACK AND ASK FOLLOWUP QUESTIONS.

www.ammo-oracle.com/
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:50:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DEGREEONE:
negative comments about its' ability to lay a guy down with one shot


Shoot the guy more than once. It's not a test of your shooting ability or manliness. Shoot until the guy is no longer a threat.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:52:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED FROM CIVILIAN USE



Thank you, and AMEN!!!!

also.... NOT THIS IDIOTIC SHIT AGAIN!
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:53:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DEGREEONE:
MOCOMAN

THANKS...........ANY SUGGESTIONS ON YOUR SHELL PREFERENCE?

DEGREEONE



For the range I really like Black Hills 55gr. Full Metal Jacket Blue Blox. A little on the pricey side but very accurate, shinny brass, and I *think* (but don't quote me) the brass is a true 5.56 case and not a .223 I seem to recall they reload with leftover M193 brass and shine it up real nice. The result is excellent ammo with plenty of piss to drive any bolt/buffer combination IMHO.

I don't/woudln't use my AR for home defense so I can't say either way. The general consensus here favors heavy 75gr. loads. Hornady and their FPD-TAP 75gr. ammo seems like a real winner.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:54:34 AM EDT
I'd use those rounds because they have more mass and better penetration than most other .223 rounds. They'll also fragment at longer ranges than normal M193. I'll see if I can scare up some of the ballistics tests for reference. I see no need for .308 to be used in a house. Overpenetration would be a big concern for me, especially if there are other dwellings in close proximity. 1/9 MAY be good enough to stabilize a 77. People have mixed results. You'll have to try a box or two and see for yourself. 1/8 or 1/7 would probably be better, but like I said, you'll have to try it. MJD
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:55:56 AM EDT
Yo markm & FALARAK

Are you guys just joking or dead serious?
(I missed any legit debate over rifle rounds used for home defense)
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:59:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan:
Yo markm & FALARAK

Are you guys just joking or dead serious?
(I missed any legit debate over rifle rounds used for home defense)



It's a serious matter when you have a bunch of civilians running around with 308 or 556 like it's no big deal.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:00:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 7:01:16 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan:
Yo markm & FALARAK

Are you guys just joking or dead serious?
(I missed any legit debate over rifle rounds used for home defense)



When you ask silly questions... you get cilly answers.... by those of us who are jaded.

Read the ammo oracle, get informed... and make your own educated decisions. The oracle isn't "god" but it has a shitload more info than most of the people around here spout off.

This shit gets debated ad nauseum for years.....
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:00:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan:
Yo markm & FALARAK

Are you guys just joking or dead serious?
(I missed any legit debate over rifle rounds used for home defense)



I can't answer the first part, but there have been many arguments over which is better, .308 or .223. It seems to come up every few months or so. Most of the time the threads degrade to childish namecalling. MJD
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:01:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By highwayman:

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan:
Yo markm & FALARAK

Are you guys just joking or dead serious?
(I missed any legit debate over rifle rounds used for home defense)



I can't answer the first part, but there have been many arguments over which is better, .308 or .223. It seems to come up every few months days or so. Most of the time the threads degrade to childish namecalling. MJD



Fixed it for ya.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:07:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan:
For the range I really like Black Hills 55gr. Full Metal Jacket Blue Blox. A little on the pricey side but very accurate, shinny brass, and I *think* (but don't quote me) the brass is a true 5.56 case and not a .223 I seem to recall they reload with leftover M193 brass and shine it up real nice. The result is excellent ammo with plenty of piss to drive any bolt/buffer combination IMHO.



There is no difference between 5.56 and .223 cases. The specs are the same. Some brass is better than others, however. BH blue box doesnt use "leftover M193 brass" they use Lake City once fire brass, which most likely came from M193 or M855 training ammo. Excellent brass, yes. Good quality ammunition... not the best for home defense (I wont get into that) but I would not want to be shot with it.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:19:26 AM EDT
I use Q331A as my Home defense ammo. Seems ammo oracle gave it good marks or whatever. I use the lighter 55 grain bullets since I use a 16 inch carbine and would be shooting closer up. If I was distance shooting I would use the heavier bullets, to make up for the lower velocity and still get penatration. That's how it works, am I right?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:21:38 AM EDT
I look at it this way, if I don't like a topic, I don't click on it. Using the search feature is great. However, sometimes people bring new perspectives on things as time passes.

My opinion is that everything is a trade off with rifles. Battlerifles penetrate better and will give you a higher probability of a stop given similar hits. Smaller calibers are easier to shoot accurately and engage multiple targets. You can also carry more ammo.

BUT, I seriously doubt if your choice of rifle will determine if you live in a SHTF situation. Even a Marlin 30-30 used by a skilled person will get the job done. Rather, I would ask myself how well I am trained, how well conditioned I am, and how many friends with guns will be with me when things go to poop.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:34:43 AM EDT
IMHO, The .223 was designed primarily to use light weight ammo and wound an enemy to tie up four or five enemy support troops in caring for the wounded enemy combatant. It is basically a shorter range weapon for close order anti personal warfare ie Viet Nam. The Garand was an all purpose short or long range weapon but was heavy and so was the ammo. There is no perfect compromise. A Shottie is great for home protection. The AR, when multiple hits are employed will do the job. In a high stress, close quarter situation, shot placement although desireable is not always easy. I keep a 30 rounder with soft points in my Colt AR.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:59:57 AM EDT
A hit by either would leave a mark.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:02:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 8:05:01 AM EDT by Unicorn]

Originally Posted By dave3006:
I look at it this way, if I don't like a topic, I don't click on it. Using the search feature is great. However, sometimes people bring new perspectives on things as time passes.




Very true. So why not just bring back an older thread with your new questions and/or new perspective instead of starting an entirely new thread?

I'm just happy nobody has posted any crap about the 5.56 just being a wounding round so that it ties up more than just the enemy being shot. As if the people we were planning on, or were fighting really give that much medical care to their soldiers.

ETA: Nevermind about the second part. I somehow missed it. I should have known it would be there already. 2 hours and it's guaranteed.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:05:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dradw:
IMHO, The .223 was designed primarily to use light weight ammo and wound an enemy to tie up four or five enemy support troops in caring for the wounded enemy combatant.



AGNTSA
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:27:25 AM EDT
See what I mean?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:36:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dradw:
IMHO, The .223 was designed primarily to use light weight ammo and wound an enemy to tie up four or five enemy support troops in caring for the wounded enemy combatant. It is basically a shorter range weapon for close order anti personal warfare ie Viet Nam. The Garand was an all purpose short or long range weapon but was heavy and so was the ammo. There is no perfect compromise. A Shottie is great for home protection. The AR, when multiple hits are employed will do the job. In a high stress, close quarter situation, shot placement although desireable is not always easy. I keep a 30 rounder with soft points in my Colt AR.



Huh???

Did you even read anything or just come straight from the gunstore run by a Navy SEAL door gunner?

Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:39:25 AM EDT
.338 Lapua Magnum or .50 BMG is the only way to clear a room
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:42:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Blackmagic94:
.338 Lapua Magnum or .50 BMG A frag is the only way to clear a room



Fixed it for you
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:52:52 AM EDT
MOKOMAN - THANKS FOR THE INFO.
ALPHAGHOST - THANKS FOR THE LINK.

Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:40:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By excist_and_reflect:
I use Q331A as my Home defense ammo. Seems ammo oracle gave it good marks or whatever. I use the lighter 55 grain bullets since I use a 16 inch carbine and would be shooting closer up. If I was distance shooting I would use the heavier bullets, to make up for the lower velocity and still get penatration. That's how it works, am I right?



Is that a new and improved Q3131A?

Just joshin'

This debate over .223/.308 comes up every month it seems and like other have said, usually ends up in a locked thread. I will say this, in a home defense situation, .223 is going to be plenty good.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:46:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DEGREEONE:
1:9 TWIST GOOD ENOUGH?



If 1:9 doesn't stabilize the 75/77 gr OTM's, try Hornady 68 gr OTM's loaded by Black Hills. They should stabilize in a 1:9 twist.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:51:16 AM EDT
Both will make you equally dead
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:59:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bushwacker85:
This debate over .223/.308 comes up every month it seems and like other have said, usually ends up in a locked thread. I will say this, in a home defense situation, .223 is going to be plenty good.



Shall we move on to the 9mm/40cal/45acp debate for Home Defense!?

I'm SO kidding by the way.

so I heard they're moving away from the MP5 becuase the 9mm over-penetrates and the .223 round gets stuck in the drywall. That true?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:18:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Blackmagic94:
.338 Lapua Magnum or .50 BMG is the only way to clear a roomhr


i agree
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:39:15 AM EDT
IBTL?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:39:50 AM EDT
I have no doubt in my mind a 75-77 grain BH will work effectively in a <25 yard situation out of a 1:9 barrel. But so far I only have about 200-300 rounds of Q3131 and some WWB.

The hotter stuff in my home magazines obviously.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:08:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DEGREEONE:
Does anyone have any comments about the comparison in stopping power (lethality) between the 5.56 and the .308? I have my AR for home defense but continue to hear negative comments about its' ability to lay a guy down with one shot.



I have some Venison steaks from this past fall that speak to the lethality of the .223.
John Allen Muhammad didn't seem to have any problem killing people with a .223.
I don't see the need for anything other than a good scatter gun for home defense.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 2:44:43 PM EDT
Under 100Meters I'll go with M193 anytime from a 14.5 or longer barrel. 100 Meters plus, I'd prefer 7.62mm. Try shooting young green coconuts at say 25M and compare 5.56mm M193 and 7.62mm FMJ. In my experience, 5.56mm breaks apart the coconut, which tells a lot about its terminal ballistics at short range. Haven't tried the 7.62mm at close range though. My guess is it'll just punch through. Not a scientific test, just a layman's apples to apples comparison.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 2:58:52 PM EDT
Now where did I put that "Not this shit again" photo...
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 4:04:16 PM EDT
Search the wab for "The NATO Handbook of Emergency War Surgery" and read the chapter about missle caused wounds. It is written by real military surgeons that do this stuff for a living. Hint: 5.56 NATO will kill you dead.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 3:39:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dradw:
IMHO, The .223 was designed primarily to use light weight ammo and wound an enemy to tie up four or five 87 enemy support troops in caring for the wounded enemy combatant. It is basically a shorter range weapon for close order anti personal warfare ie Viet Nam.



Fixed it for you!
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:16:28 AM EDT
Hello.

How much lethal is the 223 rem compared to a gun caliber like .357 SIG??
Man it sounds very weak! I thought the 223 sends people to heaven, not emergency room!
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:51:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By dradw:
IMHO, The .223 was designed primarily to use light weight ammo and wound an enemy to tie up four or five 87 enemy support troops in caring for the wounded enemy combatant. It is basically a shorter range weapon for close order anti personal warfare ie Viet Nam.



Fixed it for you!



No offense markm, but I have yet to see a post where you added anything substantive to the issue.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:11:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 6:12:15 AM EDT by Polizei-Berlin]

A frag is the only way to clear a room


That is the correct answer.

Back to topic.

I did a test back then as we had the G3(7.62x51mm) in service and just got the G36 (5.56x45mm) to replace the old battlerifle.

It was not a very profesional test but quiet impressiv anyway.

I took 2 blocks of wet clay. Bouth about 10x10x20 inch.

Then I placed a clay-block at 25 meters and shot the 10x10 surface with the G36 using a regular Ball ammo.American Eagle I belive.
Man the block jumped up for 15 inch or so crazy.
It had a very smal entryhole and right after that a very large "woundcave" of the size of 2 fists.
But the round did not broke apart but exited the clay-block after 1/3 to the top.
VERY impressiv.
I guess someone hit by that will have a pretty bad day.

The 2nd Clay-block was also placed at 25 meters and I shot ithe 10x10 surface with the G3 using the issued 148gr FMJ.
The Clay-block jumped about 1 meter up...damn.
As I walked over to the leftover of the clay I was shocked !
The former clay-block looked like a 20x20 clay-plate.
Totaly ripped open till it became an almost flat surface.
That was IMPRESSIV !

Take care
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:14:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gopeterson:
No offense markm, but I have yet to see a post where you added anything substantive to the issue.



If a subject comes up that hasn't already been covered 87 times, I'll add something subtantive!

Do you want me to add you to my list of whiners who need to approve my replies in advance?
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:17:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gopeterson:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By dradw:
IMHO, The .223 was designed primarily to use light weight ammo and wound an enemy to tie up four or five 87 enemy support troops in caring for the wounded enemy combatant. It is basically a shorter range weapon for close order anti personal warfare ie Viet Nam.



Fixed it for you!



No offense markm, but I have yet to see a post where you added anything substantive to the issue.


That's because there is very little of substance that can be added that has not already been re-hashed somewhere else ad nauseum.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:27:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By gopeterson:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By dradw:
IMHO, The .223 was designed primarily to use light weight ammo and wound an enemy to tie up four or five 87 enemy support troops in caring for the wounded enemy combatant. It is basically a shorter range weapon for close order anti personal warfare ie Viet Nam.



Fixed it for you!



No offense markm, but I have yet to see a post where you added anything substantive to the issue.


That's because there is very little of substance that can be added that has not already been re-hashed somewhere else ad nauseum.



It's not just this topic, which I agree with you on. It's every post I read from markm adds nothing to the debate.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:30:31 AM EDT
Shot placement.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:37:06 AM EDT
shot placement, I would agree.

ETA: markm and others continue to choose to click these threads and act the way they do. ignore them no matter how justified they think they are...
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