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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:33:33 AM EDT
[#1]
.223 = Very Lethal
.308 = More Lethal Shot Placement my good man. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:40:16 AM EDT
[#2]
BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED FROM CIVILIAN USE
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:40:31 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:42:40 AM EDT
[#4]
With FMJ the 5.56 is close to the 7.62
With soft points the 5.56 is not close to the 7.62 |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:43:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Agreed. That is the most important aspect of wounding. A .223 will kill something just as dead as a .308 if they both hit vitals. .308 is far superior at wounding if you need to go through a barrier. For general home defense I'd go with an AR loaded with 75-77 gr. rounds, if your rifle/carbine has a fast enough twist to shoot them well. MJD |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:48:00 AM EDT
[#8]
www.ammo-oracle.com--this might help
the energy dump/wound cavity of a .308 is almost twice that of a 5.56 both will FUBAR you....but if you want the extra range/energy--go w/ the .308 the 5.56, imo, is kinda finky--it needs sufficient velocity to fragment (its main method of killing) in soft tissue; penetration through barriers is also less |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:48:28 AM EDT
[#9]
IF YOU ARE SERIOUS, PLEASE READ THIS THEN COME BACK AND ASK FOLLOWUP QUESTIONS. www.ammo-oracle.com/ |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:50:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Shoot the guy more than once. It's not a test of your shooting ability or manliness. Shoot until the guy is no longer a threat. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:52:32 AM EDT
[#11]
Thank you, and AMEN!!!! also.... NOT THIS IDIOTIC SHIT AGAIN! 
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:53:35 AM EDT
[#12]
For the range I really like Black Hills 55gr. Full Metal Jacket Blue Blox. A little on the pricey side but very accurate, shinny brass, and I *think* (but don't quote me) the brass is a true 5.56 case and not a .223 I seem to recall they reload with leftover M193 brass and shine it up real nice. The result is excellent ammo with plenty of piss to drive any bolt/buffer combination IMHO. I don't/woudln't use my AR for home defense so I can't say either way. The general consensus here favors heavy 75gr. loads. Hornady and their FPD-TAP 75gr. ammo seems like a real winner. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:54:34 AM EDT
[#13]
I'd use those rounds because they have more mass and better penetration than most other .223 rounds. They'll also fragment at longer ranges than normal M193. I'll see if I can scare up some of the ballistics tests for reference. I see no need for .308 to be used in a house. Overpenetration would be a big concern for me, especially if there are other dwellings in close proximity. 1/9 MAY be good enough to stabilize a 77. People have mixed results. You'll have to try a box or two and see for yourself. 1/8 or 1/7 would probably be better, but like I said, you'll have to try it. MJD
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:55:56 AM EDT
[#14]
Yo markm & FALARAK
Are you guys just joking or dead serious? (I missed any legit debate over rifle rounds used for home defense) |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:59:02 AM EDT
[#15]
It's a serious matter when you have a bunch of civilians running around with 308 or 556 like it's no big deal. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 7:00:39 AM EDT
[#16]
When you ask silly questions... you get cilly answers.... by those of us who are jaded.  Read the ammo oracle, get informed... and make your own educated decisions. The oracle isn't "god" but it has a shitload more info than most of the people around here spout off. This shit gets debated ad nauseum for years..... |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 7:00:41 AM EDT
[#17]
I can't answer the first part, but there have been many arguments over which is better, .308 or .223. It seems to come up every few months or so. Most of the time the threads degrade to childish namecalling. MJD |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 7:01:51 AM EDT
[#18]
Fixed it for ya. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 7:07:30 AM EDT
[#19]
There is no difference between 5.56 and .223 cases. The specs are the same. Some brass is better than others, however. BH blue box doesnt use "leftover M193 brass" they use Lake City once fire brass, which most likely came from M193 or M855 training ammo. Excellent brass, yes. Good quality ammunition... not the best for home defense (I wont get into that) but I would not want to be shot with it. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 7:19:26 AM EDT
[#20]
I use Q331A as my Home defense ammo. Seems ammo oracle gave it good marks or whatever. I use the lighter 55 grain bullets since I use a 16 inch carbine and would be shooting closer up. If I was distance shooting I would use the heavier bullets, to make up for the lower velocity and still get penatration. That's how it works, am I right?
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Posted: 2/3/2006 7:21:38 AM EDT
[#21]
I look at it this way, if I don't like a topic, I don't click on it. Using the search feature is great. However, sometimes people bring new perspectives on things as time passes.
My opinion is that everything is a trade off with rifles. Battlerifles penetrate better and will give you a higher probability of a stop given similar hits. Smaller calibers are easier to shoot accurately and engage multiple targets. You can also carry more ammo. BUT, I seriously doubt if your choice of rifle will determine if you live in a SHTF situation. Even a Marlin 30-30 used by a skilled person will get the job done. Rather, I would ask myself how well I am trained, how well conditioned I am, and how many friends with guns will be with me when things go to poop. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 7:34:43 AM EDT
[#22]
IMHO, The .223 was designed primarily to use light weight ammo and wound an enemy to tie up four or five enemy support troops in caring for the wounded enemy combatant. It is basically a shorter range weapon for close order anti personal warfare ie Viet Nam. The Garand was an all purpose short or long range weapon but was heavy and so was the ammo. There is no perfect compromise. A Shottie is great for home protection. The AR, when multiple hits are employed will do the job. In a high stress, close quarter situation, shot placement although desireable is not always easy. I keep a 30 rounder with soft points in my Colt AR.
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Posted: 2/3/2006 7:59:57 AM EDT
[#23]
A hit by either would leave a mark.
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Posted: 2/3/2006 8:02:37 AM EDT
[#24]
Very true. So why not just bring back an older thread with your new questions and/or new perspective instead of starting an entirely new thread? I'm just happy nobody has posted any crap about the 5.56 just being a wounding round so that it ties up more than just the enemy being shot. As if the people we were planning on, or were fighting really give that much medical care to their soldiers. ETA: Nevermind about the second part. I somehow missed it. I should have known it would be there already. 2 hours and it's guaranteed. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 8:05:28 AM EDT
[#25]
AGNTSA 
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Posted: 2/3/2006 8:27:25 AM EDT
[#26]
See what I mean?
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Posted: 2/3/2006 8:36:46 AM EDT
[#27]
Huh??? Did you even read anything or just come straight from the gunstore run by a Navy SEAL door gunner? |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 8:39:25 AM EDT
[#28]
.338 Lapua Magnum or .50 BMG is the only way to clear a room
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Posted: 2/3/2006 8:42:03 AM EDT
[#29]
Fixed it for you 
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Posted: 2/3/2006 8:52:52 AM EDT
[#30]
MOKOMAN - THANKS FOR THE INFO.
ALPHAGHOST - THANKS FOR THE LINK. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 9:40:12 AM EDT
[#31]
Is that a new and improved Q3131A?  Just joshin' This debate over .223/.308 comes up every month it seems and like other have said, usually ends up in a locked thread. I will say this, in a home defense situation, .223 is going to be plenty good. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 9:46:22 AM EDT
[#32]
If 1:9 doesn't stabilize the 75/77 gr OTM's, try Hornady 68 gr OTM's loaded by Black Hills. They should stabilize in a 1:9 twist. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 9:51:16 AM EDT
[#33]
Both will make you equally dead
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Posted: 2/3/2006 9:59:55 AM EDT
[#34]
Shall we move on to the 9mm/40cal/45acp debate for Home Defense!?  I'm SO kidding by the way.  so I heard they're moving away from the MP5 becuase the 9mm over-penetrates and the .223 round gets stuck in the drywall. That true?
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Posted: 2/3/2006 10:18:11 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 2/3/2006 10:39:15 AM EDT
[#36]
IBTL?
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Posted: 2/3/2006 10:39:50 AM EDT
[#37]
I have no doubt in my mind a 75-77 grain BH will work effectively in a <25 yard situation out of a 1:9 barrel. But so far I only have about 200-300 rounds of Q3131 and some WWB.
The hotter stuff in my home magazines obviously. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 11:08:04 AM EDT
[#38]
I have some Venison steaks from this past fall that speak to the lethality of the .223. John Allen Muhammad didn't seem to have any problem killing people with a .223. I don't see the need for anything other than a good scatter gun for home defense. |
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Posted: 2/3/2006 2:58:52 PM EDT
[#40]
Now where did I put that "Not this shit again" photo...
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Posted: 2/3/2006 4:04:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Search the wab for "The NATO Handbook of Emergency War Surgery" and read the chapter about missle caused wounds. It is written by real military surgeons that do this stuff for a living. Hint: 5.56 NATO will kill you dead.
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Posted: 2/4/2006 3:39:42 AM EDT
[#42]
Fixed it for you! 
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Posted: 2/4/2006 5:16:28 AM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 2/4/2006 5:51:36 AM EDT
[#44]
No offense markm, but I have yet to see a post where you added anything substantive to the issue. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:11:50 AM EDT
[#45]
That is the correct answer. Back to topic. I did a test back then as we had the G3(7.62x51mm) in service and just got the G36 (5.56x45mm) to replace the old battlerifle. It was not a very profesional test but quiet impressiv anyway. I took 2 blocks of wet clay. Bouth about 10x10x20 inch. Then I placed a clay-block at 25 meters and shot the 10x10 surface with the G36 using a regular Ball ammo.American Eagle I belive. Man the block jumped up for 15 inch or so crazy. It had a very smal entryhole and right after that a very large "woundcave" of the size of 2 fists. But the round did not broke apart but exited the clay-block after 1/3 to the top. VERY impressiv. I guess someone hit by that will have a pretty bad day. The 2nd Clay-block was also placed at 25 meters and I shot ithe 10x10 surface with the G3 using the issued 148gr FMJ. The Clay-block jumped about 1 meter up...damn. As I walked over to the leftover of the clay I was shocked ! The former clay-block looked like a 20x20 clay-plate. Totaly ripped open till it became an almost flat surface. That was IMPRESSIV ! Take care |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:14:22 AM EDT
[#46]
If a subject comes up that hasn't already been covered 87 times, I'll add something subtantive! Do you want me to add you to my list of whiners who need to approve my replies in advance? |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:17:42 AM EDT
[#47]
That's because there is very little of substance that can be added that has not already been re-hashed somewhere else ad nauseum. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:27:34 AM EDT
[#48]
It's not just this topic, which I agree with you on. It's every post I read from markm adds nothing to the debate. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:30:31 AM EDT
[#49]
Shot placement.
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:37:06 AM EDT
[#50]
shot placement, I would agree.
ETA: markm and others continue to choose to click these threads and act the way they do. ignore them no matter how justified they think they are... |
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