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Posted: 12/20/2004 2:21:30 PM EDT
I was wondering what does HBAR mean?
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 2:22:40 PM EDT
nevermind I know now...thanks for looking
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 3:25:16 PM EDT
Shorthand for Heavy Barrel
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 3:30:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
Shorthand for Heavy Barrel



Shorthand for 'cheaper for the manufacturer to produce'...

Fixed it for ya...

Link Posted: 12/20/2004 4:15:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2004 4:49:27 PM EDT

Also shorthand for "we didn't want to fire up the lathe"
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 3:36:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:
Also shorthand for "we didn't want to fire up the lathe"



I have read that before and understood it to mean a corner-cutting, or cost saving method.

If this is so, why wouldn't these makers simply make 'pencil' barrels and save on the materials as well?
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 4:01:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By _DR:
Also shorthand for "we didn't want to fire up the lathe"



I have read that before and understood it to mean a corner-cutting, or cost saving method.

If this is so, why wouldn't these makers simply make 'pencil' barrels and save on the materials as well?

+1
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 4:59:39 AM EDT

The HBAR is cheaper for the manufacturer as they don't have the same amount of labor/time/tooling invested as they would to produce for example, a Gov't profile barrel. The barrel blanks all start out the same so in theory should all cost the same but time on the lathe would equal less productivity and increased tooling costs and labor costs along with increased overhead expenses. It will always be cheaper to do less...

When Colt marketing convinced the buying public the HBAR was the hot ticket their accountants must have been thrilled, and the fact the rest of the AR manufacturers followed Colt's lead only made the problem worse... Unless you're playing with F/A, the HBAR is completely pointless for the end-user...

Link Posted: 12/21/2004 7:25:41 AM EDT
Thats why I like the fluted the H-Bar. Superior cooling to a normal Hbar or Light barrel, as light as an m4 barrel (within 2 ounces, anyway), and the the durability of an H-Bar.

By the way be weary of those who say 'H-Bar is pointless unless you have full auto', then run out and buy an M4 barrel with no M203!
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 8:24:23 AM EDT
How true.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 8:50:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkStar:
Unless you're playing with F/A, the HBAR is completely pointless for the end-user...




Originally Posted By DallmannTodd:
By the way be weary of those who say 'H-Bar is pointless unless you have full auto', then run out and buy an M4 barrel with no M203!



You are exactly right. I don't own any HBARs nor do I own any 'M4' profiled barrels...

Link Posted: 12/21/2004 8:57:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 8:58:01 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By ric9977:
I was wondering what does HBAR mean?



It means a manly barrel that is the right size for the AR-15 owner that doesn't want to blend in with the folks who want to play out their "High Speed Operator" fantasies by loading up on $3000 worth of accessories and a pencil barrel that a field mouse could twist like a pretzel.



Train heavy, play light.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 9:13:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 9:13:43 AM EDT by _DR]
No. we just don't like lugging around a weapon that feels like a length of PIG IRON.

I had enough of that humping the "Pig" (M60 machinegun) around for miles and miles.

If you like carrying extra weight for no good reason, you go with your bad self.
I spent too much time carrying too much BS like a damn pack mule for 8 years in the Army, I sure as HELL am not going to do it now of my own free will.

You might force me to carry an HBAR at gunpoint, but that's the only way I'll ever do it.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 9:30:58 AM EDT
Don't non Heavy barrels taper to allow for the mounting area and sight post/gas block? I know that an AR15 isnt the most dead on accurate rifle, but I also know that having a uniform barrel increases accuracy. It may not be noticable to the average user with an out of the box AR, but it is still an example of increased functionality from an H-Bar without full auto.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 11:53:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
If this is so, why wouldn't these makers simply make 'pencil' barrels and save on the materials as well?

Because manufacturing doesn't work that way. You have to start with a piece of stock that is atleast as large in diameter as the largest part of the finished piece and on a rifle barrel that is always going to be the 1" or so area at the rear over the chamber.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 12:02:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 12:04:09 PM EDT by EOTeched]

Originally Posted By DarkStar:
Unless you're playing with F/A, the HBAR is completely pointless for the end-user...


What about less barrel whip? Less chances to torq the barrel in different situations (sling pull, dropping, etc.)? Less need to free float the barrel?
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 12:03:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By _DR:
Also shorthand for "we didn't want to fire up the lathe"



I have read that before and understood it to mean a corner-cutting, or cost saving method.

If this is so, why wouldn't these makers simply make 'pencil' barrels and save on the materials as well?



Probaly has to do with trying to bore then rifle a thin barrel. It's easier to bore the thicker barrel blank - then turn it down to make sure the bore is centered.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 12:06:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 12:07:07 PM EDT by Hokie]
Have a Big Ass Rifle
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 12:07:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DallmannTodd:
I know that an AR15 isnt the most dead on accurate rifle,

Compared to the big rail gusn they use at some benchrest competitions they may not be 'the msot accurate' but for a semi-auto service rifle they are very accurate.


but I also know that having a uniform barrel increases accuracy. It may not be noticable to the average user with an out of the box AR, but it is still an example of increased functionality from an H-Bar without full auto.
While profile can have an impact on the accuracy of a barrel, the quality of the bore and chamber are much more important. A barrel from Kreiger or Douglas with a lightweight profile will be more accurate than the HBAR you find in parts kits from Model 1 or J&T.

In terms of accuracy, an ordinary barrel with an HBAR profile is like a ricer Honda with all the fins and spoilers but with a completely stock engine and drivetrain. Sure the fins and spoilers will work if it gets going fast enough, but the odds of it ever going that fast without the proper internals are very slim.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 12:34:59 PM EDT


Originally Posted By DarkStar:
...the HBAR is completely pointless for the end-user...




This is what I always get yelled at for saying about the M4 barrel!
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 12:46:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
...In terms of accuracy, an ordinary barrel with an HBAR profile is like a ricer Honda with all the fins and spoilers but with a completely stock engine and drivetrain. Sure the fins and spoilers will work if it gets going fast enough, but the odds of it ever going that fast without the proper internals are very slim.



That is the best descriptions of the practicality of rack grade HBARS.

LOL

HBARS = Ricers with all show and no go.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 12:51:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DallmannTodd:

Originally Posted By DarkStar:
...the HBAR is completely pointless for the end-user...




This is what I always get yelled at for saying about the M4 barrel!


The difference is that while the cutout for the grenade launcher is useless for most people, a lightweight barre is useful. For a long time the M4 profile was the only lightweight carbine barrel that could be found and even today there are a lot more M4 profiles available than true lightweight profiles.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 12:58:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

In terms of accuracy, an ordinary barrel with an HBAR profile is like a ricer Honda with all the fins and spoilers but with a completely stock engine and drivetrain. Sure the fins and spoilers will work if it gets going fast enough, but the odds of it ever going that fast without the proper internals are very slim.



Say again? Am I to gather that you are saying a heavy profile barrel has nothing to do with accuracy? I've read this many times on here and I just want to get it straight.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 1:08:18 PM EDT
I am a huge fan of Colt HBAR rifles and carbines.
(however, i do not bash others if they prefer other brands or barrel profiles.)
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 1:12:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmPhil:
I am a huge fan of Colt HBAR rifles and carbines.
(however, i do not bash others if they prefer other brands or barrel profiles.)



whew!.....for a minute there I thought Arfcom was gonna get a good lashin'!
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 1:22:02 PM EDT
HBAR

How 'Bout A Ride?
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 1:31:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 1:33:06 PM EDT by Hoplophile]

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

In terms of accuracy, an ordinary barrel with an HBAR profile is like a ricer Honda with all the fins and spoilers but with a completely stock engine and drivetrain. Sure the fins and spoilers will work if it gets going fast enough, but the odds of it ever going that fast without the proper internals are very slim.



Say again? Am I to gather that you are saying a heavy profile barrel has nothing to do with accuracy? I've read this many times on here and I just want to get it straight.


Go back and read what I said. The profile can have an impact on accuracy. If you take two otherwise identical barrels and leave one with a heavy profile and turn the other to a lightweight profile then you'll probably get better accuracy from the heavier barrel. Notice I said you'd -probably- get better accuracy. That's because the advantage is theoretical and assumes that everything else about the barrels is completely identical which is very unlikely. Especially if you're comparing common, non-match barrels.

If barrel A had a fresh rifling button and chamber reamer and compare it to barrel B that was made by the same worker but was made when those parts were getting worn and needed to be replaced and you'll find a much greater impact on accuracy than any decisions about profile. Now if you take barrel A that was made with fresh cutters it'll be more accurate if you leave it heavy than if you turn it down to a lighter profile. But when you're ordering a barrel you have no way of knowing whether you're going to get barrel A or barrel B. The heavier barrel MIGHT be more accurate, but it WILL be heavier to carry around and slower to maneuver.

If you're building a target rifle that will normally be fired from a rest with good quality ammo, then go for the super extra heavy profile and enjoy. I've got one of those myself and it's fun to shoot. But if you're building a rifle that will be used for plinking with cheap ammo, then get the lighter profile and make up the weight savings with an extra pound or two of ammo so you can shoot a little more.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 1:58:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 2:00:00 PM EDT by ipschoser1]

Originally Posted By ric9977:
I was wondering what does HBAR mean?



Heavy Beyond All Reason
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 2:25:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 2:31:50 PM EDT by SelectFire]
Heavy Barrel All Right
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 2:27:15 PM EDT
How 'Bout A Reduction
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 2:35:09 PM EDT
Homos Buy ARs.... wait a minute
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 2:41:58 PM EDT
A heavy match grade barrel is the only way to go for accuracy. As for the added weight, if I were going to Iraq and use my AR then it might matter, however the vast majority of us that own AR's aren't lugging them on 20 mile marches etc. so how does the little added weight matter? IMHO I like the feel of the heavier rifle and the accuracy potential.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 2:42:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

In terms of accuracy, an ordinary barrel with an HBAR profile is like a ricer Honda with all the fins and spoilers but with a completely stock engine and drivetrain. Sure the fins and spoilers will work if it gets going fast enough, but the odds of it ever going that fast without the proper internals are very slim.



Say again? Am I to gather that you are saying a heavy profile barrel has nothing to do with accuracy? I've read this many times on here and I just want to get it straight.


Go back and read what I said. The profile can have an impact on accuracy. If you take two otherwise identical barrels and leave one with a heavy profile and turn the other to a lightweight profile then you'll probably get better accuracy from the heavier barrel. Notice I said you'd -probably- get better accuracy. That's because the advantage is theoretical and assumes that everything else about the barrels is completely identical which is very unlikely. Especially if you're comparing common, non-match barrels.

If barrel A had a fresh rifling button and chamber reamer and compare it to barrel B that was made by the same worker but was made when those parts were getting worn and needed to be replaced and you'll find a much greater impact on accuracy than any decisions about profile. Now if you take barrel A that was made with fresh cutters it'll be more accurate if you leave it heavy than if you turn it down to a lighter profile. But when you're ordering a barrel you have no way of knowing whether you're going to get barrel A or barrel B. The heavier barrel MIGHT be more accurate, but it WILL be heavier to carry around and slower to maneuver.

If you're building a target rifle that will normally be fired from a rest with good quality ammo, then go for the super extra heavy profile and enjoy. I've got one of those myself and it's fun to shoot. But if you're building a rifle that will be used for plinking with cheap ammo, then get the lighter profile and make up the weight savings with an extra pound or two of ammo so you can shoot a little more.



I appreciate what you're saying. I just get really tired of folks spewing out the blanket statement that there is no difference in accuracy between a heavy barrel and a 'pencil' barrel. If that was the case, I guess I, and every other precision shooter, should remove all of our heavy contour barrels and replace them with sporters. After all, since jump-angle, cold-bore shots, harmonics and barrel whip have nothing to do with shot variation.

BTW - You had a very good explanation except for one point. If you were to take two otherwise 'identical' barrels, the heavy would be more accurate. The biggest reason I've seen for folks to make this staement is the fact that they themselves cannot equal their rifles ability and, therefore, would never see an increase in accuracy.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 2:46:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By boisedarc:
A heavy match grade barrel is the only way to go for accuracy. As for the added weight, if I were going to Iraq and use my AR then it might matter, however the vast majority of us that own AR's aren't lugging them on 20 mile marches etc. so how does the little added weight matter? IMHO I like the feel of the heavier rifle and the accuracy potential.



First of all, my heavy barrel A2 is ONE pound heavier than a gov profile. The same weight as one loaded thirty round mag. I can't see the one pound being a prob to anyone. YMMV
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 2:52:12 PM EDT
Yes that is what I am trying to say, Very little difference in weight and the potential for large gains. I deer hunt with a 16 pound F-class rifle and get asked all the time how I use such a heavy weapon for hunting, heck I'm in Oklahoma, you dont walk more than a quarter to your hunting spot anyway, and I have no proplems taking a deer at ranges exceeding 500 yds. As for the AR I've seen M4's with so much crap mounted to them I dont see how anyone could complain about the weight of the barrel.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 2:57:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:
First of all, my heavy barrel A2 is ONE pound heavier than a gov profile. The same weight as one loaded thirty round mag. I can't see the one pound being a prob to anyone. YMMV



It's not just the amount of the weight - it's were it's located (think basic mechanics i.e. lever). I recently had a fellow shooter over so I could do some work on his rifles, a pair of M4gerys with 16" M4 barrels. My M4gery has a 14.5+Vortex - the differenece in weight was the .16lbs of the A2 FS on the 16" barrel. HE commented on 'weight difference' when 'trying out' my carbine. - with just .16 lbs of addition weight 16" out. This guy is no donut hound like me - he works out, eats healthy, and trains several times a week at Brazilian wrestling (sorry I don't remember the name) - in other words the dude is 'buff'.

Can people lug around 9-10lbs rifles - sure they've been doing it for years. But if I'm luggin around a 8.5lb 20" basic rifle (A2 HBAR) I think I'll start looking at FALs..
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 2:59:37 PM EDT
HBAR
(n)
1. Acronym for Heavy Barrel.
2. A rifle barrel possessed by one with a brain smaller than his biceps.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 3:14:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:
First of all, my heavy barrel A2 is ONE pound heavier than a gov profile. The same weight as one loaded thirty round mag. I can't see the one pound being a prob to anyone. YMMV



It's not just the amount of the weight - it's were it's located (think basic mechanics i.e. lever). I recently had a fellow shooter over so I could do some work on his rifles, a pair of M4gerys with 16" M4 barrels. My M4gery has a 14.5+Vortex - the differenece in weight was the .16lbs of the A2 FS on the 16" barrel. HE commented on 'weight difference' when 'trying out' my carbine. - with just .16 lbs of addition weight 16" out. This guy is no donut hound like me - he works out, eats healthy, and trains several times a week at Brazilian wrestling (sorry I don't remember the name) - in other words the dude is 'buff'.

Can people lug around 9-10lbs rifles - sure they've been doing it for years. But if I'm luggin around a 8.5lb 20" basic rifle (A2 HBAR) I think I'll start looking at FALs..



I may have my 'poundage' off but the Corps always told me an A2 (without mag) was 6.5 lbs. and 39 5/8" long. That should make mine 7.5. I understand your comment about balance. Usually, a little barrel heavy will aide in settling the rifle to shoot offhand.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 3:15:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
HBAR
(n)
1. Acronym for Heavy Barrel.
2. A rifle barrel possessed by one with a brain smaller than his biceps.



If that wasn't so sad it'd be funny.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 3:22:46 PM EDT
Sling attached that 1lb means alot
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 3:35:16 PM EDT
1 pound is a huge difference, ask any hardcore mountain climber, backpacker or Bike racer.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 3:36:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:
I may have my 'poundage' off but the Corps always told me an A2 (without mag) was 6.5 lbs. and 39 5/8" long. That should make mine 7.5.

A1 is a bit over 6.5 lbs

A2 w/o magazine & w/o sling is 7.5 lbs - 8.6lbs if it has a 30 rounder (30 round USGI magazine with 30 rounds is 1.1 lbs).


I understand your comment about balance. Usually, a little barrel heavy will aide in settling the rifle to shoot offhand

That is fine for the manicured lawns of DCM competition, but it is not the type of shooting you're going to do on a battlefield. The extra weight is also a hinderance to adjusting your aim to a target that is moving & zig zagging.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 3:43:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
1 pound is a huge difference, ask any hardcore mountain climber, backpacker or Bike racer.

That's like saying "0.00001" makes a huge difference, ask any machinist" when building a wodden box..

Just because something makes a difference to one person doesn't mean it will to everyone else.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 3:46:28 PM EDT
How many of us are using our AR'S on the battlefield? None... So what difference does it make?
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 4:01:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By TeuffelHunden1775:
I may have my 'poundage' off but the Corps always told me an A2 (without mag) was 6.5 lbs. and 39 5/8" long. That should make mine 7.5.

A1 is a bit over 6.5 lbs

A2 w/o magazine & w/o sling is 7.5 lbs - 8.6lbs if it has a 30 rounder (30 round USGI magazine with 30 rounds is 1.1 lbs).


I understand your comment about balance. Usually, a little barrel heavy will aide in settling the rifle to shoot offhand

That is fine for the manicured lawns of DCM competition, but it is not the type of shooting you're going to do on a battlefield. The extra weight is also a hinderance to adjusting your aim to a target that is moving & zig zagging.



I stand corrected. ICBT 02.01d 7.5 pounds(without sling and magazine) 8.79 pounds with sling and fully loaded 30 round magazine. (less bayonet)

So, we never shot offhand in combat?
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 4:02:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 4:03:55 PM EDT by MissouriBob]
Since we're on the barrel topic what's the readout on stainless steel vs. pencil vs. HBAR?

ETA: I've read SS needs to be cleaned more freqently and is not so good on FA. I've also read that is BS and just shoot the hell out of it. Experts?
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 4:06:18 PM EDT
My 14.5 HBAR carbine is the same weight loaded as a Govt full size 20" with Govt barrel.With all the shit people habg on their carbines and extra pound wont matter,it will matter how ever if you do sustained rapid fire wich I do but not all the time its just good to know my barrel will take it,oh and by the way the new M4 profile is 8 ounces heavier than the old one and only 8 ounces lighter than a true HBAR,The army went to a heavier barrel for a reason and before ecvey one says yea full auto we have semi autos Id like to remind people about the movie jpeg about 5 months ago that showed full auto against semi auto but the guy was bump firing.Guess what he equaled the full autos rate of fire.So it is possible to get a semi auto just as hot as full auto.Ill take the HBAR.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 4:13:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2004 4:31:25 PM EDT by sgtstinger]
My home-built M4gery-type Carbine thingy has a 16" HBAR for one reason and one reason only...

Because I'm an impatient bastard. I wanted to finish putting my AR together.

When I ordered the barrel from Bushmaster(just a few days before we invaded Iraq), I was told that there was a 12 - 16 week wait for 16" M4 profile barrels. The wait for 16" HBAR's was 6 - 8 weeks. Sure enough, mine arrived in 7 weeks and 2 days...
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 4:36:47 PM EDT

I was just shooting an Hbar at 600 yards and was wishing it had more weight to steady it. It reminds me of a Garand, it is so sweet.

I also have a Colt pencil barrel that several people have told me is the lightest AR they have ever held and the hardest recoiling they have ever fired.

These rifles represent two extremes and you are missing something if you don't have both.
Link Posted: 12/21/2004 4:48:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
HBAR
(n)
1. Acronym for Heavy Barrel.
2. A rifle barrel possessed by one with a brain smaller than his biceps.




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