User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 6:21:16 PM EDT
[#1]
This site never fails to amaze!
Most folks here case on and constantly talk down H&K in general and the XM8 in particular, and then turn around and embrace this upper and hail it an engineering marvel (it works much the same as the XM8/G36). LOL |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 6:35:16 PM EDT
[#2]
You know, if this design modification had been produced by Colt or Bushmaster, people on this board would be drooling all over it.
Admit it, it's what the M16 should have been from the start. A rifle with a real gas system that doesn't crap in it's own chamber. You know how many damn hours I spent cleaning that crap out of my M16s over 8 years? Wasted hours of my life. And now they come up with this, after I get out. Just typical. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 6:44:07 PM EDT
[#3]
tagged
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 6:50:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: tagged Nice sigline smartass! I'll give ya a call after work [:D] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 7:00:12 PM EDT
[#5]
This is quite a development to the AR system. Coupled with Bushmasters release of the .308 AR that uses FAL mags- what next?? Now the only real fault in the AR system has been recognized- the gas system. I bet Bushmaster releases a piston upper here soon just to spite HK.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 7:38:19 PM EDT
[#6]
I think this is a boon to the civilian market because the civilians use ARs because it's too expensive to get other guns like G36 etc, so having this HK gas rod technology is a good thing and I'm sure it will reach the civilian market and be copied by bushmaster armalite etc in time.
from a military/LE perspective, im less impressed. i really think HK needs to stop trying to make a gun for everyone that whines, and instead use some common sense and take the elements of each gun that people like and just put them all into one. the xm8 is close. the g36 was close. all of them could be improved by swapping ideas from one to the other. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 8:27:59 PM EDT
[#7]
[Homer] Hmmmmmm, HKM4. [/Homer].
I now see why all you guys talked about the Shot Show so much. [drooling noises] Ahhghhahghhahhg [/drooling noises] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 9:38:45 PM EDT
[#8]
"it is anticipated that HK will offer retrofit services for existing M4-style
weapons to the HKM4 standard" new gas system anyone?? LittleJacek |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 9:42:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I love HKs as much as the next guy, but what have I fallen back on time and time again? The 1911 and the M4. What's HK beginning to make again? Oh, yeah...1911s and M4s. Kinda funny. who's not making a m4 or 1911 copy? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 9:47:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: "it is anticipated that HK will offer retrofit services for existing M4-style weapons to the HKM4 standard" oh yeah!! |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 9:52:15 PM EDT
[#11]
The HKM4 has been developed by HK for use by military and law enforcement personnel as an interim performance upgrade to existing US M4 carbines to improve solider survivability in combat until the XM8 design is completed, fully tested and available for fielding.
So if I understand that correctly they are only offering these until the XM8 comes out? What is the point then in selling a few here in there to Mil/LE if once the XM8 comes out they will stop selling them? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 10:10:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: I believe this is it for the direct gas system. It's either the HK M4 upper or the XM8. I think the Jessica Lynch firefight was the final nail in the coffin. The U. S. public hasn't heard of military weapons failure since Vietnam and the introduction of the M16. If the new HK upper performs like promised I'd say stop right there we have a winner. If not I'm all for a new platform with a new caliber. Well, there's one flaw with your logic... If we use the Lynch firefight as an example, we need to replace EVERY GODDAMN WEAPON IN THE ARSENAL, 'cause they all jammed... That unit reported jams on: M2HB (blowback) M240B & M249 (gas piston), as well as the M16 & M9... Once again, like the XM8, I see 'solution in search of a problem'... Also, I do not like the idea of buying rifles from a German company (even made in the USA) with the way the world is going... There's simply not enough wrong with the M16 (it jams if you don't clean it, just like every other gun) to justify such a conversion.... P.S. Before you bring up barrel length, anything under 14" affects the accuracy and terminal performance of the 5.56mm so much that it shouldn't even be considered... Then again, I'm not an HK groupie, the only weapon they make that I'd want to own is the MK23... Auggie will probably scoop one of these up as quick as possible... Oh, sidenote for all the HK junkies... If they sell plain uppers, you WILL be able to legally buy one post 9/04, since with the AWB gone there's no difference between a LEO M4 upper and a civvie one (just make sure your flash hider is a minimum of 1.51" long (14.5" bbl + 1.51" FH = 16.01" bbl for ATF purposes))... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 10:28:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: You know, if this design modification had been produced by Colt or Bushmaster, people on this board would be drooling all over it. Admit it, it's what the M16 should have been from the start. A rifle with a real gas system that doesn't crap in it's own chamber. You know how many damn hours I spent cleaning that crap out of my M16s over 8 years? Wasted hours of my life. And now they come up with this, after I get out. Just typical. Or the other side... Gas piston is 50's technology, the extra cleaning time is a small price to pay for more accuracy & controllability, etc... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 10:57:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Gas piston is 50's technology, the extra cleaning time is a small price to pay for more accuracy & controllability, etc... That's funny. Much of the world's military arsenals are still "50's technology", including our own. And if it works better than the current design, I don't give a damn how old it is. Plus, I can't see H&K making an inaccurate rifle. I mean, these are the guys that made the freakin' PSG-1. Controllability? That varies much on the shooter, not the rifle IMHO. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/12/2004 11:13:27 PM EDT
[#15]
I LOVE YOU HK ! (now please make a HK AR-15 version for the civilian market so that I too can enjoy the pleasures of this fine looking rifle)
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 2:03:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: You know, if this design modification had been produced by Colt or Bushmaster, people on this board would be drooling all over it. [red]Admit it, it's what the M16 should have been from the start. A rifle with a real gas system that doesn't crap in it's own chamber.[/red] You know how many damn hours I spent cleaning that crap out of my M16s over 8 years? Wasted hours of my life. And now they come up with this, after I get out. Just typical. Like the AR18 is? I've always wondered what it'd be like if the military adopted the AR18 instead. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 4:23:24 AM EDT
[#17]
LarryG36 has some great pics here:
[url]http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=143121&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=4&vc=1[/url] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 4:46:51 AM EDT
[#18]
Hmm.. Remember this pic from Iraq that was on the Rifles etc. board a while ago?
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/p3ef26a9ab0f0eb4ec360a098af7b66fd/fa9215a3.jpg[/img] I think we decided it was a Arms Tech Compak-16.. Now I'm wondering if was actually a H&K M4 upper.. I guess we'll never know for sure.. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 4:54:26 AM EDT
[#19]
Some LEO departments dont allow use of the full auto carbines so im sure HK will make a semi auto versions like they did with the G36s. If the "LEO only" markings dont mean anything after the AWsunset these should be civy legal.[bounce]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 5:14:30 AM EDT
[#20]
A pic from HK's website
[img]http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/mediaimages/m4scope2.jpg[/img] I kinda like the forearm on this one. Anyone seen one before, or is it HK's design? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 5:36:46 AM EDT
[#21]
You guys disappoint me,
its been 24hours and no one has commented on the new hole in the lower receiver. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 6:29:13 AM EDT
[#22]
Check out the HK sights. I've always liked the HK setup.
[img]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20018.jpg[/img] Also the piston. A RAS or similar item would have to be modified. [img]http://www.hkpro.com/m4pistonclose.jpg[/img] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 7:27:50 AM EDT
[#23]
We played with them yesterday, THIS IS WHAT THE M16 SHOULD OF BEEN 30 YEARS AGO.
[image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20018.jpg[/image] [image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20019.jpg[/image] [image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20020.jpg[/image] [image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20021.jpg[/image] [image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20022.jpg[/image] [image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20023.jpg[/image] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 7:31:15 AM EDT
[#24]
[image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20024.jpg[/image]
[image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20025.jpg[/image] [image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20026.jpg[/image] [image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20027.jpg[/image] [image]http://area51guns.com/shotshow%20028.jpg[/image] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 7:48:22 AM EDT
[#25]
SWEET!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 7:52:12 AM EDT
[#26]
SWEET PICS LARRYG36! THANKS!!
[jump][jump][jump][jump][jump] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 7:53:09 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Dinger, ya mean these mags [;)] [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/101251-big.jpg[/img] I got some more of the new ones, not the old dull finished ones, and I love them. These are nothing like the bad batch we received previously. Fit and finish are 100%, function is 110%, and they're so easy to clean. -Cap'n Oh yeah!, I'd love to get my hands on 10-20 of them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 7:57:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Finally a HK system that uses cheap $ and available high capacity magazines. Will the offer it in 6.8 SPC? How about a ambi safety? Notice no dust cover also.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 7:57:11 AM EDT
[#29]
For a weapon that apparently is outdated, there sure are a lot of people cranking out their own new versions of it....
I agree though, it would be cool to have a gas piston upper. Heck, chamber the upper for 6.8x43mm, and *bam* you have your replacement for the M4/M16 (or maybe it would be the M4A2 and the M16A5?). I bet dimes to dollars that this is HK's ultimate plan- smoke and mirrors on the XM8, and then sell the military new uppers by the boatload! |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 8:31:33 AM EDT
[#30]
Although this would be an advantage to our troops, and I would MUCH rather this over the XM-8, I am saddened by the fact that an overseas mfg. is going for the military contract. This will not be good for us in the long run, if it happens ( economically ), BUT the troops will have a refined weapon.
Big plus, big minus. I'm a bit torn over this one. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 8:37:54 AM EDT
[#31]
Five0- The RAS will go directly on the carbine over the piston.
The more direct information on this system is on HKPRO's long gun thread. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 8:43:00 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Although this would be an advantage to our troops, and I would MUCH rather this over the XM-8, I am saddened by the fact that an overseas mfg. is going for the military contract. This will not be good for us in the long run, if it happens ( economically ), BUT the troops will have a refined weapon. Big plus, big minus. I'm a bit torn over this one. They are building a plant in the states. What about the Berettas, and the FNs that our troops use? Whats the difference? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 8:54:54 AM EDT
[#33]
They are building a plant in the states. What about the Berettas, and the FNs that our troops use? Whats the difference? True...at least it is HK not Beretta ! |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 9:37:09 AM EDT
[#34]
Ok. Thats it. I've got to have one of these!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 2:16:58 PM EDT
[#35]
THINK about this guys...
take this gas system, put it in an LMT MRP type, monolithic upper, chamber it in 5.56, 6.8, and 7.62x51, so everyone will be happy, and you would have damn near the perfect rifle. man, am i excited. i would have one in 5.56 and 7.62, no matter what they cost... sign me up RIGHT NOW. Stainless |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 2:31:08 PM EDT
[#36]
This is EXACTLY LIKE I SAID it would be (gas piston system)
NON FREE FLOATING RAIL SYSTEM. This is not good for consistency and accuracy. How much more does it weigh? How much less accurate? How much POI shift when things are added and removed? I am still not impressed... yet. Edited to add: Would an RAS2 work since it attaches at the upper or is the barrel nut area too different? What are the accuracy stats? Is the barrel polygonal? chromed? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 2:47:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: Although this would be an advantage to our troops, and I would MUCH rather this over the XM-8, I am saddened by the fact that an overseas mfg. is going for the military contract. This will not be good for us in the long run, if it happens ( economically ), BUT the troops will have a refined weapon. Big plus, big minus. I'm a bit torn over this one. They are building a plant in the states. What about the Berettas, and the FNs that our troops use? Whats the difference? But most of that money is not going to a US mfg. It is going back overseas. FN is still a MAJOR mfg., but the M-16 contract is shaky, because Colt is making M-16A4s... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 3:11:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Why couldn't a rod operated gas system be created as a retrofit for existing ARs? Surely someone must have looked at an AR180 and thought, "Gee, I could make that work on my AR15." The engineering seems pretty simple.
Personally, I'll get excited when H&K comes out with a roller lock fluted chamber AR! (That was a joke.) Scot |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 3:48:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Anyone looked in the KKF Forum lately? [shock]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 5:04:44 PM EDT
[#40]
The million dollar question in my mind isn't reliability-
Its the question of what kind of accuracy you can wring out of a gas-piston upper- I was always told (correctly?) that the ar-15 gas system essentially allows for tremendous accuracy at the expense of some reliability. The piston makes the other trade off. I'm not trying to trash this upper- I'm Really impressed at the idea of a rifle that never requires cleaning for the effective life of the weapon but I wonder if can do all things a normal AR can do- Can we make a H&K M4 SPRbine? Or is MOA accuracy in this system not gonna happen? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 6:58:00 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Anyone looked in the KKF Forum lately? [shock] Yeah I can buy an upper from Kurt without having to be judged as "worthy" THough every HK update I've seen in the past 2 days has gotten softer on the civ sales from "no sales to civ" to the current under concideration Mike |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 7:55:44 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Quoted: Anyone looked in the KKF Forum lately? [shock] Yeah I can buy an upper from Kurt without having to be judged as "worthy" THough every HK update I've seen in the past 2 days has gotten softer on the civ sales from "no sales to civ" to the current under concideration Mike read what others think of what ar15.com thinks... [url]http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=143377&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1[/url] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 8:18:51 PM EDT
[#43]
DAMNIT! I'm still saving up for a FAL and then HK has to come along and do this to my budget!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/13/2004 9:26:37 PM EDT
[#44]
I too am not impressed...
Gas Piston? The Stoner Direct Gas Action is more advanced (AND inherently more accurate)... Hasn't HK read the Army's specs for a new rifle: ANY color BUT black! And oh my gawd...that crappy diopter rear sight, a truly shitty piece of crap, the bane of anyone who had an HK-91... No thanks, I know its NEW and therefore MUST HAVE, but I will keep my "OBSOLETE" old AR, thank you very much... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/14/2004 1:51:26 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Why couldn't a rod operated gas system be created as a retrofit for existing ARs? Just have a look [url=http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/rifles-carbines/m4.html]HERE[/url] "A unique user removable gas system can be factory retrofitted to existing weapons and fits within modified hand guards or a modified Rail Interface System (RIS) allowing all current standard accessories and sights to be fitted to the HKM4 as normal." I guess the pictures on which you can see a M4 with dust cover over the ejection port and the original markings at the safety lever show a retrofitted M4. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/14/2004 5:57:17 AM EDT
[#46]
So perhaps H&K is looking to sell retrofit kits (think how many ARs are in service already) as well as new guns.
As for the people complaining accuracy would suffer... I'm no expert on military weapons testing but reliability must come before accuracy. An MOA gun is useless if it doesn't go BANG when you pull the trigger! Scot |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/14/2004 7:05:02 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: As for the people complaining accuracy would suffer... I'm no expert on military weapons testing but reliability must come before accuracy. An MOA gun is useless if it doesn't go BANG when you pull the trigger! Scot This is where the comprise comes in. If you can get MOA accuracy out of a combat weapon that requires slightly more maintenance to be reliable (plenty of reliability for combat situations), and it's nearly a pound lighter. I'd say give me better accuracy and I'll clean my rifle every 1000 rds, thank you very much. Of course a weapon with AK accuracy could alleviate all of the complaints surrounding the M855 ammo, because no one would be able to hit anything outside of fragmentation range. Now if the HKM4 proves to be extremely accurate (and I think it might), and it could lose some weight, I'm all over it. Not because I'm not happy with the reliability of my ARs, but because sometimes I get tired of cleaning my bolt/carrier and that little area in the upper around the gas tube.[:)] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/14/2004 4:09:23 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: As for the people complaining accuracy would suffer... The G36 rod operated gas system is not like you know it from former designs, it is springy bedded, very few vibrations are devolved. As a military rifle it will still be one of the most accurate, I bet only the competitive high power shooters might notice the difference. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/15/2004 1:03:09 PM EDT
[#49]
Here are some pix of a semi-auto version with no bayonet lug or flash hider. If the receiver was made in USA they could sell this rifle right now. They had two of them at the show. A hint of things to come ??
[img]http://members.cox.net/ljt3/Shot04/HKM4Trigger.jpg[/img] [img]http://members.cox.net/ljt3/Shot04/HKM4Barrel.jpg[/img] Here is the piston and op-rod system: [img]http://members.cox.net/ljt3/Shot04/HKM4OpRod.jpg[/img] |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/15/2004 1:43:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Here some pics of the OP-ROD and PISTON
[IMG]http://area51guns.com/ss8.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://area51guns.com/ss9.jpg[/IMG] And heres more pics of the HK M4 [IMG]http://area51guns.com/ss5.jpg[/IMG] And the HK AR15 [IMG]http://area51guns.com/ss4.jpg[/IMG] |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
