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This would not be a Tec Con style trigger. 2 stage one position, 3 gun speed trigger the other View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Saw this thread referred to on another forum - my answer is YES, I would be seriously interested in such a trigger if Gieselle were to produce one. I 'm seriously interested in the Tac-con trigger - and this would be Gieselle. This would not be a Tec Con style trigger. 2 stage one position, 3 gun speed trigger the other Bill, If you can do this for around the $300-$350 price point utilizing a standard full auto selector for those of us that already have the ambi / style we already like you will have a home run! I am serious in saying I am holding off on buying FCG to see if you can pull this off. I will buy three. Glad to see you are R&D this. On a side note, Sorry to hear of your loss. GB |
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With the available options, would everyone prefer to see the first stage be an SSA weight or an SSA-E weight? The SSA-E weight would seem to almost give a citizens available SSF style trigger, minus the tax stamp and transferable NFA. Which could be a ton of fun.
I'm still beyond jazzed about this trigger and can't wait to see what GA comes up with! |
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I would like an SSA/whatever fast trigger, option. The SSA would give a bit more stability, if this was going to be used as a combat style trigger. Just my take.
Mr. G, please let us in on the progress of this!!!! Inquiring monds want to know!! We have money ready to roll! |
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In terms of a competition oriented trigger this would make more sense as an SSA-E, because for events where you need a 4.5lb trigger pull this trigger's probably not going to be legal anyway. Might as well go all out and make it an SSA-E. I certainly would prefer the SSA-E FWIW.
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I thought having a precision two stage option, and a short throw/reset single stage option, was the whole point to this - not mixing "duty" and "non-duty" weights, as if that's advisable on an actual duty gun.
That would be like taking a DA revolver and dropping the SA to 8 oz - it's still a duty weapon because the DA is still 7.5lb right? Not a perfect analogy but you get the idea. On the other hand a "precision" two stage trigger makes sense on an otherwise fast-firing competition gun for those longer range courses, and for flexibility with multiple uppers (also not really a "duty" scenario). I personally would use this to set up one lower for multiple long and short range uppers. A SSA-E and S3G are closest to each other in terms of break weight - it would be a very natural transition. |
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The SSA is hardly a duty trigger... View Quote The SSA is a derivative of our SSF which was developed for SOCOM and safety certified by the Crane Naval Warefare Center. Some departments enforce specific requirements around trigger pull weights, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the SSA is a highly capable duty trigger. The SSA-E however we do not recommend for duty purposes. |
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The SSA is a derivative of our SSF which was developed for SOCOM and safety certified by the Crane Naval Warefare Center. Some departments enforce specific requirements around trigger pull weights, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the SSA is a highly capable duty trigger. The SSA-E however we do not recommend for duty purposes. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The SSA is hardly a duty trigger... The SSA is a derivative of our SSF which was developed for SOCOM and safety certified by the Crane Naval Warefare Center. Some departments enforce specific requirements around trigger pull weights, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the SSA is a highly capable duty trigger. The SSA-E however we do not recommend for duty purposes. The only difference being pull weight, and if the SSA-E isn't duty then the S3G is even less so. So let's put the two non-duty options in the same trigger: SSA-E/S3G After all, there already is the original three position duty trigger: SSF. |
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It's just that 4.5 lbs seems pretty light for a duty trigger.
I thought most "duty triggers" were in the 6+ lbs. range... |
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It's just that 4.5 lbs seems pretty light for a duty trigger. I thought most "duty triggers" were in the 6+ lbs. range... View Quote You would still be correct. The addition of the second stage allows the weight to be lighter while still maintaining safe functionality during a high stress situation. The take up of the first stage is the safety buffer for accidental discharge. 6+ is accepted as the minimum when looking at duty triggers, however that is also assuming a stock gi trigger. That is actually how the QMS and ACT were born, upgrades from standard gi, but still meet those minimum weight requirements that many departments still adhere to. That is a minimum weight that was adopted by the military a long time ago and that then filters down through all of the different doj and law enforcement branches. The military has since had us develop a 2 stage trigger that is safe/reliable for combat and the 4.5 lb design with the 2.5/2lb weight distribution was found to be the sweet spot. Slowly but surely that is filtering down as well. Long story short, "the law hasn't caught up to the technology." |
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The only difference being pull weight, and if the SSA-E isn't duty then the S3G is even less so. So let's put the two non-duty options in the same trigger: SSA-E/S3G After all, there already is the original three position duty trigger: SSF. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The SSA is hardly a duty trigger... The SSA is a derivative of our SSF which was developed for SOCOM and safety certified by the Crane Naval Warefare Center. Some departments enforce specific requirements around trigger pull weights, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the SSA is a highly capable duty trigger. The SSA-E however we do not recommend for duty purposes. The only difference being pull weight, and if the SSA-E isn't duty then the S3G is even less so. So let's put the two non-duty options in the same trigger: SSA-E/S3G After all, there already is the original three position duty trigger: SSF. I am not sure what the exact plans are for which "trigger" the first mode will be. Sagmill may be able to chime in on that. You definitely have a valid point. I just wanted to clear up the duty weights on our triggers and shed some background on how/where they came about. |
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The only difference being pull weight, and if the SSA-E isn't duty then the S3G is even less so. So let's put the two non-duty options in the same trigger: SSA-E/S3G After all, there already is the original three position duty trigger: SSF. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The SSA is hardly a duty trigger... The SSA is a derivative of our SSF which was developed for SOCOM and safety certified by the Crane Naval Warefare Center. Some departments enforce specific requirements around trigger pull weights, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the SSA is a highly capable duty trigger. The SSA-E however we do not recommend for duty purposes. The only difference being pull weight, and if the SSA-E isn't duty then the S3G is even less so. So let's put the two non-duty options in the same trigger: SSA-E/S3G After all, there already is the original three position duty trigger: SSF. The SSF is a select fire trigger which goes in full auto guns and is designed to give full-auto fire in position 3. I believe the semi-auto portion of the SSF is an SSA equivalent given Geissele lists the SSA and SSF as a duty trigger in their application chart. |
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The SSF is a select fire trigger which goes in full auto guns and is designed to give full-auto fire in position 3. I believe the semi-auto portion of the SSF is an SSA equivalent given Geissele lists the SSA and SSF as a duty trigger in their application chart. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The SSA is hardly a duty trigger... The SSA is a derivative of our SSF which was developed for SOCOM and safety certified by the Crane Naval Warefare Center. Some departments enforce specific requirements around trigger pull weights, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the SSA is a highly capable duty trigger. The SSA-E however we do not recommend for duty purposes. The only difference being pull weight, and if the SSA-E isn't duty then the S3G is even less so. So let's put the two non-duty options in the same trigger: SSA-E/S3G After all, there already is the original three position duty trigger: SSF. The SSF is a select fire trigger which goes in full auto guns and is designed to give full-auto fire in position 3. I believe the semi-auto portion of the SSF is an SSA equivalent given Geissele lists the SSA and SSF as a duty trigger in their application chart. You are correct with all of that, however at issue is the S3G and whether that is a "duty" trigger or not (it's not). If not, it is probably not advisable to throw it into the selector mix on what is ostensibly going to be a duty weapon with all of the liability that entails - or at least it is less appropriate than on a weapon that already is not going to be a duty weapon (i.e. one with an SSA-E). The SSA and SSF's second position are both 2.5lb first stage + 2lb second stage (4.5lb) triggers. The SSF's third position is 3lb + 2lb = 5lbs, or decidedly "duty." The S3G on the other hand is just a hair over 3lbs. Decidedly "non-duty." This is all academic for me, as I have no idea what springs and surfaces are required to set one position's weight relative to another position's weight. It could be that simply as a technical matter we end up with SSA/S3G, or SSA-E/S3G. I'm only saying that the latter makes more sense when taking "duty" considerations into account. All else is personal preference. Edit: One way Geissele could resolve this is to release the S3G with a higher pull weight. However due to the extremely short throw the pull weight would probably need to be north of 6-7 lbs to qualify as "duty." Call it the "SDG." |
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You are correct with all of that, however at issue is the S3G and whether that is a "duty" trigger or not (it's not). If not, it is probably not advisable to throw it into the selector mix on what is ostensibly going to be a duty weapon with all of the liability that entails - or at least it is less appropriate than on a weapon that already is not going to be a duty weapon (i.e. one with an SSA-E). The SSA and SSF's second position are both 2.5lb first stage + 2lb second stage (4.5lb) triggers. The SSF's third position is 3lb + 2lb = 5lbs, or decidedly "duty." The S3G on the other hand is just a hair over 3lbs. Decidedly "non-duty." This is all academic for me, as I have no idea what springs and surfaces are required to set one position's weight relative to another position's weight. It could be that simply as a technical matter we end up with SSA/S3G, or SSA-E/S3G. I'm only saying that the latter makes more sense when taking "duty" considerations into account. All else is personal preference. Edit: One way Geissele could resolve this is to release the S3G with a higher pull weight. However due to the extremely short throw the pull weight would probably need to be north of 6-7 lbs to qualify as "duty." Call it the "S3D." View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The SSA is hardly a duty trigger... The SSA is a derivative of our SSF which was developed for SOCOM and safety certified by the Crane Naval Warefare Center. Some departments enforce specific requirements around trigger pull weights, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the SSA is a highly capable duty trigger. The SSA-E however we do not recommend for duty purposes. The only difference being pull weight, and if the SSA-E isn't duty then the S3G is even less so. So let's put the two non-duty options in the same trigger: SSA-E/S3G After all, there already is the original three position duty trigger: SSF. The SSF is a select fire trigger which goes in full auto guns and is designed to give full-auto fire in position 3. I believe the semi-auto portion of the SSF is an SSA equivalent given Geissele lists the SSA and SSF as a duty trigger in their application chart. You are correct with all of that, however at issue is the S3G and whether that is a "duty" trigger or not (it's not). If not, it is probably not advisable to throw it into the selector mix on what is ostensibly going to be a duty weapon with all of the liability that entails - or at least it is less appropriate than on a weapon that already is not going to be a duty weapon (i.e. one with an SSA-E). The SSA and SSF's second position are both 2.5lb first stage + 2lb second stage (4.5lb) triggers. The SSF's third position is 3lb + 2lb = 5lbs, or decidedly "duty." The S3G on the other hand is just a hair over 3lbs. Decidedly "non-duty." This is all academic for me, as I have no idea what springs and surfaces are required to set one position's weight relative to another position's weight. It could be that simply as a technical matter we end up with SSA/S3G, or SSA-E/S3G. I'm only saying that the latter makes more sense when taking "duty" considerations into account. All else is personal preference. Edit: One way Geissele could resolve this is to release the S3G with a higher pull weight. However due to the extremely short throw the pull weight would probably need to be north of 6-7 lbs to qualify as "duty." Call it the "S3D." My thoughts when posting this topic originally was that I would like to have a trigger assembly that offered a duty trigger (SSA) in the first fire position and a game gun trigger (S3G) in the second fire position. This makes the gun pretty versatile IMO. With the SSA-E being too light, you'd lose the duty gun capability. Once Geissele designs it, I am guessing it would be pretty easy to offer a SSA/S3G and a SSA-E/S3G as it appears to me the mechanical difference between the SSA and SSA-E is slight. |
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I think a SSA/S3G combo would be optimum (although I would like the "D" variant).
You'd have a "safe" trigger with the SSA and a "game" trigger with the SG3. At home keep it in SSA mode. At the range, switch it over to Tier 1 mode and go to town trying replicate a machine gun! |
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You'd have a "safe" trigger with the SSA and a "game" trigger with the SG3. At home keep it in SSA mode. At the range, switch it over to Tier 1 mode and go to town trying replicate a machine gun! View Quote At home or on duty you don't actually keep it in SSA mode - you keep it on safe until SHTF, then sweep the selector in an adrenaline dump. You don't want to introduce even the possibility that you'll flip to a trigger inappropriate for SHTF/duty. A 6-7 lb S3G instead (or even an ALG, but that's too similar a break to the SSA to be worth putting on a combo) and it's a different ballgame. But as long as the S3G is only 3lb it's better paired with the SSA-E. This is all IMAO but it's logical. The real value with a two-stage/S3G combo is the difference in two-stage "icicle break" precision vs single-stage "skate off a short cliff" speed, not the difference between "heavy" and "light." Heavy and light are the difference between SHTF and games, to which precision and speed both apply, just at different appropriate minimum weights. Let's mix precision and speed here, not duty and games. Just my two cents. |
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At home or on duty you don't actually keep it in SSA mode - you keep it on safe until SHTF, then sweep the selector in an adrenaline dump. You don't want to introduce even the possibility that you'll flip to a trigger inappropriate for SHTF/duty. A 6-7 lb S3G instead (or even an ALG, but that's too similar a break to the SSA to be worth putting on a combo) and it's a different ballgame. But as long as the S3G is only 3lb it's better paired with the SSA-E. This is all IMAO but it's logical. The real value with a two-stage/S3G combo is the difference in two-stage "icicle break" precision vs single-stage "skate off a short cliff" speed, not the difference between "heavy" and "light." Heavy and light are the difference between SHTF and games, to which precision and speed both apply, just at different appropriate minimum weights. Let's mix precision and speed here, not duty and games. Just my two cents. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You'd have a "safe" trigger with the SSA and a "game" trigger with the SG3. At home keep it in SSA mode. At the range, switch it over to Tier 1 mode and go to town trying replicate a machine gun! At home or on duty you don't actually keep it in SSA mode - you keep it on safe until SHTF, then sweep the selector in an adrenaline dump. You don't want to introduce even the possibility that you'll flip to a trigger inappropriate for SHTF/duty. A 6-7 lb S3G instead (or even an ALG, but that's too similar a break to the SSA to be worth putting on a combo) and it's a different ballgame. But as long as the S3G is only 3lb it's better paired with the SSA-E. This is all IMAO but it's logical. The real value with a two-stage/S3G combo is the difference in two-stage "icicle break" precision vs single-stage "skate off a short cliff" speed, not the difference between "heavy" and "light." Heavy and light are the difference between SHTF and games, to which precision and speed both apply, just at different appropriate minimum weights. Let's mix precision and speed here, not duty and games. Just my two cents. This is all good feedback, keep it coming. I can say from my personal opinion and I am not the engineer making this come to life. My only issue with an S3G being tuned to a "duty" weight, is regardless of the weight whether it is at 3.5, 4.5, 6.5 ect. Is without proper time behind the trigger, it will still be proned to doubling for those that do not put in the work to learn the reset and doubling in any duty situation is no bueno. So there is that to consider. I am not shooting down the idea, i am going to pass the info along because it is good feedback. I am just giving my two sense. |
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This is all good feedback, keep it coming. I can say from my personal opinion and I am not the engineer making this come to life. My only issue with an S3G being tuned to a "duty" weight, is regardless of the weight whether it is at 3.5, 4.5, 6.5 ect. Is without proper time behind the trigger, it will still be proned to doubling for those that do not put in the work to learn the reset and doubling in any duty situation is no bueno. So there is that to consider. I am not shooting down the, idea, i am going to pass the info along because it is good feedback. I am just giving my two sense. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You'd have a "safe" trigger with the SSA and a "game" trigger with the SG3. At home keep it in SSA mode. At the range, switch it over to Tier 1 mode and go to town trying replicate a machine gun! At home or on duty you don't actually keep it in SSA mode - you keep it on safe until SHTF, then sweep the selector in an adrenaline dump. You don't want to introduce even the possibility that you'll flip to a trigger inappropriate for SHTF/duty. A 6-7 lb S3G instead (or even an ALG, but that's too similar a break to the SSA to be worth putting on a combo) and it's a different ballgame. But as long as the S3G is only 3lb it's better paired with the SSA-E. This is all IMAO but it's logical. The real value with a two-stage/S3G combo is the difference in two-stage "icicle break" precision vs single-stage "skate off a short cliff" speed, not the difference between "heavy" and "light." Heavy and light are the difference between SHTF and games, to which precision and speed both apply, just at different appropriate minimum weights. Let's mix precision and speed here, not duty and games. Just my two cents. This is all good feedback, keep it coming. I can say from my personal opinion and I am not the engineer making this come to life. My only issue with an S3G being tuned to a "duty" weight, is regardless of the weight whether it is at 3.5, 4.5, 6.5 ect. Is without proper time behind the trigger, it will still be proned to doubling for those that do not put in the work to learn the reset and doubling in any duty situation is no bueno. So there is that to consider. I am not shooting down the, idea, i am going to pass the info along because it is good feedback. I am just giving my two sense. If the S3G can't be made "duty safe" at any weight, due to its lack of break but mainly the very short throw/reset, then the only duty-appropriate combo trigger utilizing existing designs would have to be SSA/ALG. The SSA-E/S3G would be appropriate as a "game" trigger. However, IMAO the ALG is just not a compelling alternative third position to the SSA because their breaks are so similar. Flipping to the ALG would just feel like a trigger feel downgrade for all the same reasons the SSA was developed in the first place. So if the missing link is a truly "duty safe" S3G, then perhaps a notional "SDG" could retain the lack of break, but with a longer throw, reset, and higher weight. If the standard mil-spec ALG single stage is 5.5 lbs, then this trigger would likely come in at ~7.5 lbs - or about the same weight as a handgun DAO trigger, which it would be very similar to. If I were sitting in the big G, I would design/release in order: SSA-E/S3G combo trigger to get the selector worked out SDG "DAO" trigger to get the duty feasibility worked out SSA/SDG trigger As above this is all purely IMAO. |
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I don't see the point if this for a "duty" weapon. If there is justification for the kind of rapid fire effect produced by an s3g then why not move to an nfa platform?
I see this primarily marketed to hobby and sport use, with the flexabilty to be used for defensive purposes if it need be. |
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I don't see the point if this for a "duty" weapon. If there is justification for the kind of rapid fire effect produced by an s3g then why not move to an nfa platform? I see this primarily marketed to hobby and sport use, with the flexabilty to be used for defensive purposes if it need be. View Quote Cost, if I could afford a M16 Registered lower or a RDIAS, then I would have 5, but 18k just isn't in the cards for a single NFA item so I stick with SBRs and Supressors. Flexibility is the key I see. people like options, and thanks to Mr Hughes, law abiding citizens have fewer. TACCON Slidefire and Geissele make new options available, not saying they are ideal but it's a move into the right direction. So my SD3G does a great job at synthesizing the end result. |
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I don't see the point if this for a "duty" weapon. If there is justification for the kind of rapid fire effect produced by an s3g then why not move to an nfa platform? I see this primarily marketed to hobby and sport use, with the flexabilty to be used for defensive purposes if it need be. View Quote Duty = home defense. Same type of trigger needed for both applications. Just remember to use position 1 for HD and position 2 for game-gun/range fun. |
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Duty = home defense. Same type of trigger needed for both applications. Just remember to use position 1 for HD and position 2 for game-gun/range fun. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I don't see the point if this for a "duty" weapon. If there is justification for the kind of rapid fire effect produced by an s3g then why not move to an nfa platform? I see this primarily marketed to hobby and sport use, with the flexabilty to be used for defensive purposes if it need be. Duty = home defense. Same type of trigger needed for both applications. Just remember to use position 1 for HD and position 2 for game-gun/range fun. This groks to me the same as: "Don't forget to lock your slidefire stock before engaging the home invader." It's just not tactically sound. |
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I was assuming "duty" was referring to a work gun.
For home defence I have zero qualms with a game trigger if that is the handiest gun at the moment. |
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Quoted: This groks to me the same as: "Don't forget to lock your slidefire stock before engaging the home invader." It's just not tactically sound. View Quote There are more reasons to own a gun than SHTF and Home Defense. If there weren't, I'd have stopped buying guns a LONG time ago. I like going to the range. I like shooting accurately at long range (SSA-E). I also like shooting fast in 2/3 gun competitions (SD3G). Sometimes I even (gasp) like to just empty a mag for the sheer fun of it (SD3G!!!!!). I really hated pulling my SD3G out of my precision gun when I got a SSA, but what I lost in speed, I gained in accuracy. Wouldn't it be cool if I didn't have to make that trade off? This trigger idea gives me everything I want in a trigger, no matter my goals while going to the range. I can see everyone of my AR's getting one eventually.... and that will be a lot of money! -Jim |
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There are more reasons to own a gun than SHTF and Home Defense. If there weren't, I'd have stopped buying guns a LONG time ago. I like going to the range. I like shooting accurately at long range (SSA-E). I also like shooting fast in 2/3 gun competitions (SD3G). Sometimes I even (gasp) like to just empty a mag for the sheer fun of it (SD3G!!!!!). I really hated pulling my SD3G out of my precision gun when I got a SSA, but what I lost in speed, I gained in accuracy. Wouldn't it be cool if I didn't have to make that trade off? This trigger idea gives me everything I want in a trigger, no matter my goals while going to the range. I can see everyone of my AR's getting one eventually.... and that will be a lot of money! -Jim View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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This groks to me the same as: "Don't forget to lock your slidefire stock before engaging the home invader." It's just not tactically sound. This trigger idea gives me everything I want in a trigger, no matter my goals while going to the range. I can see everyone of my AR's getting one eventually.... and that will be a lot of money! -Jim The point was only that SSA-E/SD3G makes more sense than SSA/SD3G - not that a combo trigger doesn't make sense. I'm with you on SSA-E and SD3G in the same gun. |
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I'm game for the SSA/SD3G combo, that'd be perfect. SSA-E/SD3G I feel like the difference between the two is too little to justify it. Right now my DMR setups have SSA-Es, 5.56 carbines are on deck for the SSA. If this SSA/SD3G is coming out I'll likely wait for it instead.
If Bill wants to do more than one of these with different combos that's cool, but the SSA/SD3G should come first. |
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I'm waiting on a timeline, I'm really itching to build a new toy and it's either buy a new SD3G or wait and see what happens here.
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Quoted: I'm waiting on a timeline, I'm really itching to build a new toy and it's either buy a new SD3G or wait and see what happens here. View Quote |
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Well, since the idea was proposed its been 6 months and the word is its still on the drawing board. So I wouldn't count on seeing anything until December at the earliest, more likely this time next year before you have one in hand. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'm waiting on a timeline, I'm really itching to build a new toy and it's either buy a new SD3G or wait and see what happens here. The parts are already multiplying. I'll never make it that long. lol |
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Just in case it matters I would be in for at least 2
the idea is what I NEED and need it like last week |
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Any new word on the progress of this amazingly tantalizing idea?
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I really do hope this becomes a realty. I'd definitely purchase a SDC/S3G or SSA/S3G combo. Truly a dream come true.
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Let's get the ball rolling soon please, I'm gonna need every advantage possible to get a decent time at Cola Warrior East.
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Please Sirs, may we have some news?
Really don't want to see this idea fall to the back ground. |
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I'd love to get one of these as well, especially if he takes Battle Arms Development's offer to make the selector. Pretty sure they said they sent an offer to him when this trigger concept was mentioned on their subforum.
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well, if Bill G makes a boat anchor, I'd probably buy one even I don't have a boat.
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I have two lowers that need this trigger, assuming the $350 price quoted in another thread still holds.
My vote would be SSA for the first position, if Mr. G is taking votes. For the second position, I defer to whichever super-light/fast trigger is chosen. |
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