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Posted: 10/5/2015 9:19:16 AM EDT
Simple question.....Is the PSAK front trunnion cast or forged?
I know the rear trunnion is cast by the clear casting marks on it. BTW....Another poster asked about the trunnions/bolt and you answered the bolt part (forged) but did not address the trunnions before you locked it. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_301/270488_PSA_AK_Parts___Bolt_and_Trunnions.html |
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Based on the photos I've seen, the front trunnions appear to be cast...
I've got no problem with cast rear trunnions, but front is a different story. |
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PSA, we need some clarification on this.
A cast front trunnion doesn't cut muster on an AK. |
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Why is that? Wouldn't it matter who cast it and how? Cast firearms from companies like Ruger have an excellent reputation for strength. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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PSA, we need some clarification on this. A cast front trunnion doesn't cut muster on an AK. Why is that? Wouldn't it matter who cast it and how? Cast firearms from companies like Ruger have an excellent reputation for strength. You certainly aren't wrong. The problem however is that the original AKM design never called for cast trunnion and folks that have tried it (Inter Ordnance) have had issues with cracking or worse. The trunnion is probably exposed to the third most pressure of any part during use and I'm not sure castings can be relied on for the kind of consistency necessary for that abuse. |
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Simple question.....Is the PSAK front trunnion cast or forged? I know the rear trunnion is cast by the clear casting marks on it. http://oi60.tinypic.com/10qgxso.jpg BTW....Another poster asked about the trunnions/bolt and you answered the bolt part (forged) but did not address the trunnions before you locked it. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_301/270488_PSA_AK_Parts___Bolt_and_Trunnions.html View Quote The front block and rear trunnion are cast 4140 steel, heat treated. We have extensively tested the blocks and trunions with tens of thousands of rounds, and have not seen an issue with the strength or longevity. The parts carry a lifetime warranty against defects in materials or workmanship. |
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The front block and rear trunnion are cast 4140 steel, heat treated. We have extensively tested the blocks and trunions with tens of thousands of rounds, and have not seen an issue with the strength or longevity. The parts carry a lifetime warranty against defects in materials or workmanship. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Simple question.....Is the PSAK front trunnion cast or forged? I know the rear trunnion is cast by the clear casting marks on it. http://oi60.tinypic.com/10qgxso.jpg BTW....Another poster asked about the trunnions/bolt and you answered the bolt part (forged) but did not address the trunnions before you locked it. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_301/270488_PSA_AK_Parts___Bolt_and_Trunnions.html The front block and rear trunnion are cast 4140 steel, heat treated. We have extensively tested the blocks and trunions with tens of thousands of rounds, and have not seen an issue with the strength or longevity. The parts carry a lifetime warranty against defects in materials or workmanship. Thank you for the answer. BTW....Who makes them? |
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I'm with you UCFed. The price is right and the warranty will cover you. This cast vs. forged argument reminds of the 4140 vs 4150 barrel steel argument. I'm a little concerned by the recall article I posted a link to. We'll see how things turn out.
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Its got a lifetime warranty though so whats the problem? Not trying to be argumentive but it seems they stand by their product so what is the concern? Curious since I did buy one and this is my first ak. View Quote Ask yourself this: Is it not better to have done things right the first time, so you don't have to depend on a warranty? A broken rifle with a great warranty is worth nothing if it breaks when you need it. The AKM forged trunnion design has been tested in all temperatures and all environments. It is a known quality that no one would have questioned. I seriously doubt PSA has done this level of testing (in cold and hot environments) with their cast trunnions. By the way - I'm not a PSA basher. I own 4 of their AR-15s and have nothing but praise for those rifles, and have spent thousands at their online and brick & mortar stores. I just really want them to do this AK the right way. |
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How much more would a forged front trunion cost PSA on each rifle? Anyone have an idea how much a forged front trunion would cost and how much a cast trunion would cost? Are forged trunions hard to get?
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Ask yourself this: Is it not better to have done things right the first time, so you don't have to depend on a warranty? A broken rifle with a great warranty is worth nothing if it breaks when you need it. The AKM forged trunnion design has been tested in all temperatures and all environments. It is a known quality that no one would have questioned. I seriously doubt PSA has done this level of testing (in cold and hot environments) with their cast trunnions. By the way - I'm not a PSA basher. I own 4 of their AR-15s and have nothing but praise for those rifles, and have spent thousands at their online and brick & mortar stores. I just really want them to do this AK the right way. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Its got a lifetime warranty though so whats the problem? Not trying to be argumentive but it seems they stand by their product so what is the concern? Curious since I did buy one and this is my first ak. Ask yourself this: Is it not better to have done things right the first time, so you don't have to depend on a warranty? A broken rifle with a great warranty is worth nothing if it breaks when you need it. The AKM forged trunnion design has been tested in all temperatures and all environments. It is a known quality that no one would have questioned. I seriously doubt PSA has done this level of testing (in cold and hot environments) with their cast trunnions. By the way - I'm not a PSA basher. I own 4 of their AR-15s and have nothing but praise for those rifles, and have spent thousands at their online and brick & mortar stores. I just really want them to do this AK the right way. Exactly this. It is not a question of whether or not castings can be as strong as forgings, they absolutely can (or close to it). In fact, the bulk majority of cast trunnions will probably be just fine. However, cast front trunnions are not part of the original spec. While most will likely be just fine, unless every single part is individually tested for voids and other inconsistencies, it is impossible to say that all will be fine. Someone could very easily do a torture test on one of these guys and run into no issues, but it would not speak for the whole of the population because the concern with castings is not theoretical strength, but consistency. The only catastrophic failures I have seen from an AK trunnion were with casted parts. I too am a fan of PSA and have turned a few of my coworkers on to their ARs. I am excited about the AK series and hope these bring loads of shooters to consider AKs. I just want to make sure they are the best they can possibly be. |
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Exactly this. It is not a question of whether or not castings can be as strong as forgings, they absolutely can (or close to it). In fact, the bulk majority of cast trunnions will probably be just fine. However, cast front trunnions are not part of the original spec. While most will likely be just fine, unless every single part is individually tested for voids and other inconsistencies, it is impossible to say that all will be fine. Someone could very easily do a torture test on one of these guys and run into no issues, but it would not speak for the whole of the population because the concern with castings is not theoretical strength, but consistency. The only catastrophic failures I have seen from an AK trunnion were with casted parts. I too am a fan of PSA and have turned a few of my coworkers on to their ARs. I am excited about the AK series and hope these bring loads of shooters to consider AKs. I just want to make sure they are the best they can possibly be. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Its got a lifetime warranty though so whats the problem? Not trying to be argumentive but it seems they stand by their product so what is the concern? Curious since I did buy one and this is my first ak. Ask yourself this: Is it not better to have done things right the first time, so you don't have to depend on a warranty? A broken rifle with a great warranty is worth nothing if it breaks when you need it. The AKM forged trunnion design has been tested in all temperatures and all environments. It is a known quality that no one would have questioned. I seriously doubt PSA has done this level of testing (in cold and hot environments) with their cast trunnions. By the way - I'm not a PSA basher. I own 4 of their AR-15s and have nothing but praise for those rifles, and have spent thousands at their online and brick & mortar stores. I just really want them to do this AK the right way. Exactly this. It is not a question of whether or not castings can be as strong as forgings, they absolutely can (or close to it). In fact, the bulk majority of cast trunnions will probably be just fine. However, cast front trunnions are not part of the original spec. While most will likely be just fine, unless every single part is individually tested for voids and other inconsistencies, it is impossible to say that all will be fine. Someone could very easily do a torture test on one of these guys and run into no issues, but it would not speak for the whole of the population because the concern with castings is not theoretical strength, but consistency. The only catastrophic failures I have seen from an AK trunnion were with casted parts. I too am a fan of PSA and have turned a few of my coworkers on to their ARs. I am excited about the AK series and hope these bring loads of shooters to consider AKs. I just want to make sure they are the best they can possibly be. i second that, do forge and we will gladly pay the difference |
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Is this Gen2 barreled receiver the version with forged trunnions?
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no, the only differences are the front sight post is installed and there is a sling loop on the handguard retainer. View Quote That's very disappointing. I really want them to succeed with their AKs, but no one is going to take them seriously until they build them the right way. Kalashnikov didn't use cast trunnions. Zastava didn't, Cugir didn't. Norinco didn't. Arsenal Bulgaria didn't, East Germany didn't, Egypt didn't, Hungary didn't, Iraq didn't, Poland didn't. They all used forged trunnions. If PSA is going to claim that their US-made rifles are built as well as the imported rifles, well, they are going to have to be built as well as the imported rifles. The cast trunnions just smack of trying to hit a price point rather than delivering a quality product. |
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That's very disappointing. I really want them to succeed with their AKs, but no one is going to take them seriously until they build them the right way. Kalashnikov didn't use cast trunnions. Zastava didn't, Cugir didn't. Norinco didn't. Arsenal Bulgaria didn't, East Germany didn't, Egypt didn't, Hungary didn't, Iraq didn't, Poland didn't. They all used forged trunnions. If PSA is going to claim that their US-made rifles are built as well as the imported rifles, well, they are going to have to be built as well as the imported rifles. The cast trunnions just smack of trying to hit a price point rather than delivering a quality product. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
no, the only differences are the front sight post is installed and there is a sling loop on the handguard retainer. That's very disappointing. I really want them to succeed with their AKs, but no one is going to take them seriously until they build them the right way. Kalashnikov didn't use cast trunnions. Zastava didn't, Cugir didn't. Norinco didn't. Arsenal Bulgaria didn't, East Germany didn't, Egypt didn't, Hungary didn't, Iraq didn't, Poland didn't. They all used forged trunnions. If PSA is going to claim that their US-made rifles are built as well as the imported rifles, well, they are going to have to be built as well as the imported rifles. The cast trunnions just smack of trying to hit a price point rather than delivering a quality product. They already said there will be a premium line with forged components. |
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They already said there will be a premium line with forged components. View Quote I caught that. The sooner the better. It would have probably been better if they had cone out the gate letting customers know the current offerings were a "budget/PTAC/Freedom/whatever" line rather than a serious AK. I think folks would have been much more understanding. |
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Cast parts will work just fine IF properly cast and heat treated. The issue I have is that cast parts usually give no 'warnings' before failure...they just shatter, and they don't take heat combined with impact very well. And the cost difference between cast and forged is almost nil for the manufacturer. I worked in a shipyard foundry for 10 years and it was like a $20 difference in labor, not material. Men machined the parts, not machines. Machines do it faster, so there goes the labor charge. Besides the bolt and some carriers, the front trunnion is the only forged part in AKMs since the mid/late 70's from most manufacturers. And splitting models by the fact of a front trunnion spec is stupid. Do it right or don't do it at all. That entire premise reminds me of something JOEKEN would have done.....
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That's very disappointing. I really want them to succeed with their AKs, but no one is going to take them seriously until they build them the right way. Kalashnikov didn't use cast trunnions. Zastava didn't, Cugir didn't. Norinco didn't. Arsenal Bulgaria didn't, East Germany didn't, Egypt didn't, Hungary didn't, Iraq didn't, Poland didn't. They all used forged trunnions. If PSA is going to claim that their US-made rifles are built as well as the imported rifles, well, they are going to have to be built as well as the imported rifles. The cast trunnions just smack of trying to hit a price point rather than delivering a quality product. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
no, the only differences are the front sight post is installed and there is a sling loop on the handguard retainer. That's very disappointing. I really want them to succeed with their AKs, but no one is going to take them seriously until they build them the right way. Kalashnikov didn't use cast trunnions. Zastava didn't, Cugir didn't. Norinco didn't. Arsenal Bulgaria didn't, East Germany didn't, Egypt didn't, Hungary didn't, Iraq didn't, Poland didn't. They all used forged trunnions. If PSA is going to claim that their US-made rifles are built as well as the imported rifles, well, they are going to have to be built as well as the imported rifles. The cast trunnions just smack of trying to hit a price point rather than delivering a quality product. And how many of those nations had access to modern metallurgy and casting technology decades ago behind the iron curtain? |
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And how many of those nations had access to modern metallurgy and casting technology decades ago behind the iron curtain? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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no, the only differences are the front sight post is installed and there is a sling loop on the handguard retainer. That's very disappointing. I really want them to succeed with their AKs, but no one is going to take them seriously until they build them the right way. Kalashnikov didn't use cast trunnions. Zastava didn't, Cugir didn't. Norinco didn't. Arsenal Bulgaria didn't, East Germany didn't, Egypt didn't, Hungary didn't, Iraq didn't, Poland didn't. They all used forged trunnions. If PSA is going to claim that their US-made rifles are built as well as the imported rifles, well, they are going to have to be built as well as the imported rifles. The cast trunnions just smack of trying to hit a price point rather than delivering a quality product. And how many of those nations had access to modern metallurgy and casting technology decades ago behind the iron curtain? This is arfcom... don't be trying to infuse logic or common sense into the argument. |
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And how many of those nations had access to modern metallurgy and casting technology decades ago behind the iron curtain? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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no, the only differences are the front sight post is installed and there is a sling loop on the handguard retainer. That's very disappointing. I really want them to succeed with their AKs, but no one is going to take them seriously until they build them the right way. Kalashnikov didn't use cast trunnions. Zastava didn't, Cugir didn't. Norinco didn't. Arsenal Bulgaria didn't, East Germany didn't, Egypt didn't, Hungary didn't, Iraq didn't, Poland didn't. They all used forged trunnions. If PSA is going to claim that their US-made rifles are built as well as the imported rifles, well, they are going to have to be built as well as the imported rifles. The cast trunnions just smack of trying to hit a price point rather than delivering a quality product. And how many of those nations had access to modern metallurgy and casting technology decades ago behind the iron curtain? All of those countries have access to modern metallurgy and casting technology. The Russians have used cast gas blocks, front sights, and other low-stress parts since the early '70s. Guess what they still don't do? Use cast barrel trunnions. This is arfcom... don't be trying to infuse logic or common sense into the argument. If posting real-world factual information doesn't count as common sense, we are all doomed. |
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