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crishel
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Posted: 4/30/2009 8:37:14 AM
[Last Edit: 5/2/2009 7:36:57 AM by crishel]
Let me clarify the post by stating that I do not own, or know someone that owns a completely DPMS based carbine, parts yes, full no. I did read the various threads in here, as well as the myth busting thread. My question arises from comments that I hear from other owners of AR15's. I do not know whats accurate information and what is not, so here I am presenting the question to you.

What is the quality of DPMS (a base carbine) in comparison to Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, Rock River, etc?

I ask, because I am looking to pick one up, but want to know are they cheaper quality (not price). Do they have a lot of issues (as some have stated). Are they the low priced, entry level AR15? OR are they the same rifle as the others, period.

Those are my questions, and I am asking as I am looking to grab a new AR15. Thanks to anyone that can take a few moments to answer my questions.

Thanks.
crishel
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Posted: 4/30/2009 3:54:12 PM
I guess this isn't a good sign. Heh.
fammyman
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Posted: 4/30/2009 3:59:39 PM
ihave not had any issues with my dpms a2
gun control is being able to hit what your aiming at !!!!!
crishel
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Posted: 4/30/2009 9:08:20 PM
Originally Posted By fammyman:
ihave not had any issues with my dpms a2


Thank you.
FennRx
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Posted: 4/30/2009 10:36:37 PM
i have a panther lite 16. i was going to buy an M&P, which was more expensive, but the salesman suggested the Panther. Great gun. havent had 1 issue with it yet, i have read the barrels run hot, but i dont know as it is my first and only AR.

the negative opinions i have read seem to be on older guns, not the new ones. and like Taurus, people bash them, but the people who actually own the guns tend to love them.
cdemarse
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Posted: 5/1/2009 6:46:18 AM
I have shot the hell out of mine and have had zero issues. Ripping on DPMS seems the be the thing to do in the AR world. I would say 90% of the assclowns that post about DPMS's quality have never owned or even handled a DPMS.

There is no denying that they are not perfect, but they are far from being low quality IMO. I have nothing but good things to say about the 2 that I have.
"Train as if your life depends on it"
crishel
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Posted: 5/1/2009 9:19:18 AM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2009 9:19:39 AM by crishel]
Originally Posted By cdemarse:
I have shot the *** out of mine and have had zero issues. Ripping on DPMS seems the be the thing to do in the AR world. I would say 90% of the assclowns that post about DPMS's quality have never owned or even handled a DPMS.

There is no denying that they are not perfect, but they are far from being low quality IMO. I have nothing but good things to say about the 2 that I have.


This is the type of feedback I am trying to get right here, thank you very much.

My main question was if they are so much of a "supposed' lower quality, what EXACTLY about them is a lower quality? What internal parts? Is it made of a lower grade steel, cheaper coatings, etc?
c0boy
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Posted: 5/1/2009 10:23:18 PM
I bought my DPMS a few months ago. After I bought I came here to start learning more. Once I found the "tier" thread and other threads I thought I made a mistake. I went to the range (indoor) to test it out. Shot about 300 rounds without a problem. Last weekend I took it out to an outdoor range and shot another 200 rounds or so. I sighted it in to 50 yards with the irons and had no problems. Once I started inspecting the rifle I realized I bought a good one. 1 in 7 twist, chrome lined, 556 barrel. It came with DPMS's own free float handguards.

I equated the "tier" thread and bashing thread to some other forums I'm on. Porsche guys will always bash on Corvettes. Why? Because they spend a hell of a lot more for similar performance. I subscribe to: the mission decides the gear. Right now I'm "plinking" indoors and outdoors. If zombies come I'm sure it will work. If the sh!t hits the fan, I'll keep it wet and clean. I plan to become a member of a rod and gun club so that I can get more time behind it. They have tactical shoots and plan to participate. If it becomes one of my hobbies I might invest in another rifle, if I have problems in those events it will teach me how to react.

I think you chose a fine weapon. Don't listen to the BS and have fun, isn't that what it is all about anyway?
RyanM
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Posted: 5/2/2009 7:38:21 PM
I equated the "tier" thread and bashing thread to some other forums I'm on. Porsche guys will always bash on Corvettes. Why? Because they spend a hell of a lot more for similar performance.


I have to ask, though, how hot and dirty did the rifle get during those 300 rounds? It's really more like, DPMSes are like Fords, LMTs are like getting a used Corvette with an ugly paint job, and Colt is more like a Porche. If you never go faster than 65 mph (or only go fast on the straightaways ), you'll never notice a difference between a Ford and a Porche. It's only when you exceed the "speed limit" of a square range and regular cleanings, that the extra cost of some brands become evident.

It's also kind of a myth that cost determines your "tier." LMT's pricing is right about the same as Bushmaster's, but one's at the top and one's at the bottom.

On the other hand, you'd be very hard-pressed to beat DPMS for price to quality ratio. And as you've found, it's not worth paying extra for capacity you'll probably never use. At the very least, I'd say that the "tier" system is correct in that DPMS and Bushmaster are about the same quality, where it matters.
c0boy
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Posted: 5/2/2009 8:45:11 PM
Originally Posted By RyanM:
I equated the "tier" thread and bashing thread to some other forums I'm on. Porsche guys will always bash on Corvettes. Why? Because they spend a hell of a lot more for similar performance.


I have to ask, though, how hot and dirty did the rifle get during those 300 rounds? It's really more like, DPMSes are like Fords, LMTs are like getting a used Corvette with an ugly paint job, and Colt is more like a Porche. If you never go faster than 65 mph (or only go fast on the straightaways ), you'll never notice a difference between a Ford and a Porche. It's only when you exceed the "speed limit" of a square range and regular cleanings, that the extra cost of some brands become evident.

It's also kind of a myth that cost determines your "tier." LMT's pricing is right about the same as Bushmaster's, but one's at the top and one's at the bottom.

On the other hand, you'd be very hard-pressed to beat DPMS for price to quality ratio. And as you've found, it's not worth paying extra for capacity you'll probably never use. At the very least, I'd say that the "tier" system is correct in that DPMS and Bushmaster are about the same quality, where it matters.


I did not look at how hot and dirty the rifle got, as the average joe would not, nor would a soldier, the weapon is shot as needed. If you want to go that far take a look at US Military dust testing; the M4 basically failed, but our soldiers don't see that, why? Because they don't shoot that many rounds in the dust. If you just look at a spreadsheet the weapon sucks in general, in the sand. Secondly the tier system only correlates to process of the products, meaning how they are built/created. Their are many ways to skin a cat, none is wrong (in the sense of the saying), non are right. Chevy still builds a push rod engine that competes with engines built with a ton more advancement.

A tier system only looks at that, it doesn't actually test products. The tier system is only good for people who know their needs(i.e. Am I a soldier, Am I a police officer, Am I doing carbine class after carbine class, Am I teaching class, Am I plinking once a month, etc.). If you look at it in real world values then it make sense. I am not saying that brand X is better than brand X. However I am saying that for my mission brand X is perfect and brand X is overkill. Don't get me wrong the tier system shows which is better, but it doesn't show which is better for what.

Basically people read into it too much and get to focused on certain brands while not looking at what their needs are. Sure some companies build stuff for professionals and there is nothing wrong with that, but in the real world terms how many people need those items? Is the quality good for what you want/need to do.....
cdemarse
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Posted: 5/2/2009 8:57:12 PM
Originally Posted By RyanM:
I equated the "tier" thread and bashing thread to some other forums I'm on. Porsche guys will always bash on Corvettes. Why? Because they spend a hell of a lot more for similar performance.


I have to ask, though, how hot and dirty did the rifle get during those 300 rounds? It's really more like, DPMSes are like Fords, LMTs are like getting a used Corvette with an ugly paint job, and Colt is more like a Porche. If you never go faster than 65 mph (or only go fast on the straightaways ), you'll never notice a difference between a Ford and a Porche. It's only when you exceed the "speed limit" of a square range and regular cleanings, that the extra cost of some brands become evident.

It's also kind of a myth that cost determines your "tier." LMT's pricing is right about the same as Bushmaster's, but one's at the top and one's at the bottom.

On the other hand, you'd be very hard-pressed to beat DPMS for price to quality ratio. And as you've found, it's not worth paying extra for capacity you'll probably never use. At the very least, I'd say that the "tier" system is correct in that DPMS and Bushmaster are about the same quality, where it matters.


All I know is that my DPMS AR was running like a top after 1000 rounds of Wolf MC. Dirty as shit but not a hiccup.
"Train as if your life depends on it"
mjl978
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Posted: 5/4/2009 1:37:34 AM
I love how people bash on products. Especially when they have never used them.

I have owned two or three complete DPMS rifles. I have used more of their parts than I can even attempt to remember. I can count the number of problems that I have had with DPMS products on one hand. It's a big fat zero.

I shoot competitive 3 gun. I usually make it to the DPMS Tri-Gun challenge, the LaRue Tactical 3 gun match, the Ft. Benning 3 gun challenge, the Rocky Mountain 3 Gun championship, and the FNH-USA Midwestern 3 gun championship. I easily put five or ten thousand rounds down range every year. All of my rifles have DPMS bolts, firing pins and LRPK's. Most of them have DPMS barrels and bolt carriers. I have not experienced a single issue related to the quality of components. I have yet to find a barrel that can come close to the DPMS DCM barrels for the price. I know that ten or fifteen of the absolute best 3 gun shooters in the WORLD are using DPMS built rifles.

I know of a facility that is local to me that puts hundreds of thousands of rounds per year through M4's built with DPMS parts. They don't have any complaints. Matter of fact, they recommend DPMS without hesitation.

Add to that the fact that Randy Luth and DPMS are major supporters of the 2nd Ammendment, the NRA and competitive 3 gun, how can you go wrong? You can't. Buy a DPMS without hesitation. You will like it.

ML
touchdown
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Posted: 5/4/2009 9:08:25 PM
I read all about DPMS on Arfcom and bought one anyway. Zero problems in a couple years, although I've only put a few thousand rounds through it.

I bought a taurus "j" frame once, had to send it back to the factory twice. I figured I learned my lesson and traded it on a smith and wesson J frame.

I sent it back to the factory the week I bought it.
Malf
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Posted: 5/12/2009 1:29:49 AM
I've got a DPMS and love it. It's been 100% since day one. I would not hesitate to purchase another.
Paul-LC
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Posted: 5/12/2009 4:54:40 PM
Originally Posted By touchdown:
I read all about DPMS on Arfcom and bought one anyway. Zero problems in a couple years, although I've only put a few thousand rounds through it.



I did it the other way around. I bought my Panther Lite 16 flattop at a gun show because the price was too good to pass up, then I came here, where I was promptly informed that my gun sucks. Needless to say, my gun does not suck and has not had a single malfunction nor any failures, even shooting plenty of Wolf throuh it.
Why? These types of threads always have me wondering why we don't have intelligence tests for membership. Ed, care to explain?- Keith_J
pd7575
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Posted: 5/12/2009 5:58:49 PM
What is the resaoning behind saying it sucks.
SVGA-1
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Posted: 5/12/2009 6:50:01 PM
I also have a Panther light flattop...I love it except I cant seem to get this damn CMMG .22lr conversion kit to go in...ugh!!!
I love eggs...
FennRx
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Posted: 5/12/2009 9:16:47 PM
Originally Posted By pd7575:
What is the resaoning behind saying it sucks.


cheap parts and reliability issues are the most common complaints.
MadSciontist
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Posted: 5/18/2009 7:46:09 AM
[Last Edit: 5/18/2009 7:58:15 AM by MadSciontist]
Originally Posted By cdemarse:
I have shot the hell out of mine and have had zero issues. Ripping on DPMS seems the be the thing to do in the AR world. I would say 90% of the assclowns that post about DPMS's quality have never owned or even handled a DPMS.

There is no denying that they are not perfect, but they are far from being low quality IMO. I have nothing but good things to say about the 2 that I have.


Lot of people base the idea of "quality" on "price". "That's not as good as my M4gery." No, my DPMS isn't as good as your Noveske. It's also one-third of the cost. But that doesn't mean I just wasted my money.

Edit: It's also kind of like the people that say "DON'T USE <BRAND X > AMMO EVAR! It gummed up my gun so bad I had to take it to the gun shop to have a gunsmith clean it!" All I can say to that is, "If you can't clean and maintain your weapon, you don't deserve to have it and should be required to give it to me."
buffetdestroyer
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Posted: 5/18/2009 6:31:02 PM
I have had nothing but exceptional accuracy & reliability from my DPMS rifles. I own several LR rifles with bull barrels and they are capable of half MOA or better.

In regards to an M4gery in 5.56 (AP4), mine is free floated and it will shoot well under an inch with handloads and several factory loads. My best group is .27" at 100 yards with a cheap Simmons Whitetail Classic scope with a load of 25 gr. RL15, 69 gr. Sierra Matchking & CCI BR4 primer. NO it won't do that everytime as with a sporter weight barrel, the temperature changes affect groups significantly and you get lucky groups from time to time. But I did shoot a .75" 6 shot group at about 85 degrees last week with that load, and I usually get at least two groups (three shot) under a half inch when I go out with 20 rounds of reloads.

It will do about the same with TAP 55 grain ammo. My free floated Sportical is just as capable and loves HSM 55 gr. V Max loads.

I haven't had any stoppages that weren't a result of my lack of attention to detail. If you put it together correctly and completely (with the right parts - i.e. don't use standard buffers on LR rifles), all of my DPMS rifles will run with the rifles costing double. I shot Colts in the Army and would still grab my DPMS over them because it is more accurate and consistent (minus the three-round-burst feature of course)! Also, I actually aim and hit rather than spray and pray which will prolong the useable life of any rifle! With over 3000 rounds through my AP4, I learned that as well as its capability of laying quasi-suppressive fire, it is a precision instrument capable of hitting in one shot if I do my part.

I bought a Fulton upper a few years back with the half inch accuracy guarantee (with the Black Hills ammo they guaranteed it with) and my sporter weight DPMS' (M4gery or Sportical) both can shoot rings around it and weigh about a pound less. I couldn't get sub half inch to save my life with GMM ammo, 2 types of Black Hills, Hornady Match, or my handloads. I returned it with no problems to Fulton (lost my shipping costs - but they stood by their guarantee) and bought a DPMS bull 24" for $200 less that was 1/3 MOA or better with good loads.

Buy a DPMS with confidence as any minor issues will be taken care of promptly by customer service (I broke an extractor and they got it to me a replacement in less than 3 days). Their barrels are top notch and are very capable if you are willing to take the time to develop a load for them. Even the 6lb gun will shoot with most bolt actions if you do your part!

BTW, the majority of claims back in the day against DPMS were with surplus ammo of dubius condition, specs and origin. The rifles now come with a disclaimer about using certain types of surplus ammo from countries that notoriously produced ammo that was out of NATO specs.
chas_allen
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Posted: 5/18/2009 10:03:13 PM
Same here, the price waws right, the gun shoots just fine, even woth Wolf ammo. From what I have read about quality, DPMS makes a good weapon, just without the high price point.
brackins23
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Posted: 5/22/2009 6:43:26 PM
I have a 16" that I put together from DPMS parts kit, I like it and it shoots great. And I also have a RRA and I like it to. What I am saying is alot of people complain about something on here that they do not own, shoot, or have ever been around the brand. In my own opinion is all that matters is, if you are happpy who cares what others think.
memyselfandi
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Posted: 5/22/2009 6:47:56 PM
They are G2G
pd7575
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Posted: 5/23/2009 12:50:07 AM
When "cheap parts and reliability issues " are complained about is it more in regards to the uppers or the lowers that DPMS puts out. I ask for the fact that I have a DPMS rifle and like it alot, I also have a colt and like it alot and I have a DPMS lower with a Noveske upper and Love it.
gonzosc1
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Posted: 5/30/2009 12:02:08 PM
I would say the whole debate is like any debate over two products. weather its cars, motorcycles, guitars or guns. no two are alike, even if they come from the same manufacturer there is a chance of getting a lemon! I caught hell from friends when I got a kawisaki 1600 cruiser motorcycle. it was not a HD so it was shit to them. well the kawisaki not parked in the shop, and neither is my dpms lo pro classic. over 2k rounds of wolf mc and not one fail to eject or cycle. I know people with ar's that cost 2x what I paid for mine and they can't run the wolf ammo. who has the better gun? the one that shoots or the one that doesn't.
then theres the whole accuracy thing. at 100-150yds, if I aim for center mass chest and its off by 1-3 inches then I still have a good lung shot. you ain't going that far after that shot. IMO unless you shoot matches I wouldn't worry about it. your not really going two ingage anyone out of 150 yds in a shtf situation. for plunking, ammo choice will help with accuracy out past 200-300 yds.
nothing wrong with dpms
KingC
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:14:35 PM
Does DPMS still have the very strict ammo usage warning on their rifles?
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