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boatbod
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Posted: 4/6/2009 11:05:19 PM
[Last Edit: 4/12/2009 9:34:52 AM by boatbod]
There have been numerous posts discussing problems using certain types of 22LR ammunition in AR-15 dedicated uppers (and conversion kits) such as the Spikes ST-22. Typically these involve attempts to use Remington Golden Bullets, CCI MiniMags, Winchester Xperts or other soft lead projectiles with blunt nose and prominent driving bands. Most often this problem manifests itself in one or more of the following ways:
- lead shaving
- failure for the bolt to go into battery, sometimes requiring several racks of the charging handle to "beat" the cartridge into the chamber
- light primer strikes and occasional failure to fire due to hammer falling while the bolt is partially out of battery
- a classic OOB discharge complete with blown casing



Investigation of this problem reveals it to be caused by the high (~40deg) feed angle inherent in the Atchisson bolt/mag design coupled with rough spots in the feed ramp extension, chamber mouth and chamber walls of the .22LR barrel or chamber adapter. The reason this causes the bolt to fail to go into battery is because the nose of the round hangs up on the chamber entry while at an extreme angle, followed by the bolt impacting the rear of the cartridge deforming at the driving bands which are typically resting on the lower lip of the chamber. At this point the round has become too fat to fit all the way in the chamber, causing the bolt remain slightly open. The following photo illustrates the problem with some Remington GBs, the resulting driving band damage as well as typical rim-bulging symptoms you might see if you examine some fired casings. Note that Federal appears to use harder brass than Remington, so it is unusual to see case deformation except in severe cases of OOB discharge.



After firing several thousand rounds, these rough spots tend to smooth out on their own, thereby reducing the incidence of jams and stoppages. In some instances, the problem may be severe enough to warrant a little extra help up front. The remainder of this post details the procedure I used on my own ST-22 after I discovered it wouldn't feed anything other than Federal Bulk - it now feeds anything I care to load in the magazine.

The polishing procedure requires you to first remove the barrel from your upper. I shall assume you already know how to do that...

1. The first thing to do is stuff a folded patch into the breech to limit how far the polishing compound will get into the bore. This step is probably not essential, but sure makes cleanup easier later.



2. Start by working on the chamber mouth and extended feed ramp on the lower lip of the chamber. I used some rouge on a conical felt polishing pad in a Dremel rotary tool. Polish to a mirror smooth finish with a very slight rounded edge to chamber mouth so it doesn't shave lead.



3. Next, you need to work on the chamber walls. This requires either a really small felt pad, or some improvisation so that you reach in far enough. I cut a cotton bud in half and chucked the plastic stick in a Dremel collet. JB Bore Paste worked well as a light polishing compound, and is less aggressive than rouge. You don't want to reshape metal, just smooth out the tool marks!



The top wall of the chamber deserves special attention, since the nose of the projectile slides on this during the feeding process.



4. Periodically check your progress by hand feeding a round at a sharp angle to simulate a round being stripped from the magazine. The higher the angle you can smoothly feed, the more reliable the end result.



Reassemble everything and hand cycle a few cartridges from the magazine, then inspect the ejected rounds for evidence of damage to the nose or driving bands. Go shooting and see if reliability has improved.

After a period of time you may notice a recurrence of the OOB problems. Typically this can be traced to a buildup of crud in the chamber, either from wax lube used on some ammunition or maybe powder fouling. Either way, a thorough chamber cleaning will usually have things running again fairly quickly.

Disclaimer: firearms are inherently dangerous and should only be worked on by someone with the appropriate training and/or experience to understand what they are doing. I will not responsible if you damage your gun, yourself or someone else by following these suggestions!
badazzar15
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Posted: 4/6/2009 11:17:44 PM
Very Nice write up! Tacked!
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Islandboy671
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Posted: 4/7/2009 9:58:17 PM
Excellent info!
Postal0311
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Posted: 4/7/2009 10:14:27 PM
[Last Edit: 4/18/2009 7:34:16 PM by Postal0311]
Interesting. I was about to send my kit back in tomorrow. Now I need to decide whether to try this, or send the kit in.

Update:
Polished it a couple days ago.
Shot it today. Runs great. Thanks. Saved me and Spikes Tactical a headache.
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boatbod
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Posted: 4/8/2009 7:36:36 AM
The main thing to remember is that you're not looking to remove metal, only make the surfaces smoother. These chambers are already pretty loose; making them bigger by excessive use of a rotary tool will just decreases accuracy.
HK_Shooter_03
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Posted: 4/9/2009 1:20:29 AM
Does this work the same way with the drop in bolt conversion kits?
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badazzar15
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Posted: 4/9/2009 1:26:56 AM
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
Does this work the same way with the drop in bolt conversion kits?



Yes it does.
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We-Gone
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Posted: 4/9/2009 2:52:15 PM
[Last Edit: 4/9/2009 3:34:48 PM by We-Gone]
Thanks for the post…I’m here to tell ya it works, I could not run thru a full mag of Remington’s with out a feed issue or two. I followed boatbod’s instructions and went out for a try, not one issue with the Remington GB rounds.

Ok went back and did the same to my Spikes Conversion, same great results. I did go one step farther on both and polished the rails to a nice mirror finish.
boatbod
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Posted: 4/9/2009 5:31:02 PM
Polishing the feed ramp on the bolt collar is also a good idea as it cuts down the accumulation of black gunge. I'm not convinced that it improves reliability in the short term, but it does reduce the interval between mandatory cleaning sessions.
mjpjr45
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Posted: 4/11/2009 11:52:28 PM
Thanks, very nice write up. I need to do this to mine, as I am having similar problems.
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jeffm1000
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Posted: 4/12/2009 7:51:10 AM
Thanks for taking the time to do this writeup, I'll do mine as soon as it comes back from the dealer NFA approved!
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RABIDFOX50
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Posted: 4/12/2009 8:39:37 AM
Cool tips, thanks.
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swat1
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Posted: 4/13/2009 9:59:27 PM
What about those who dont know how to take the barrel out. I looking out for the little guy just starting out. Really I normally have all my stuff done by an armour at work so I need to start learning.
badazzar15
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Posted: 4/13/2009 10:10:47 PM
[Last Edit: 4/13/2009 10:13:42 PM by badazzar15]
Originally Posted By swat1:
What about those who dont know how to take the barrel out. I looking out for the little guy just starting out. Really I normally have all my stuff done by an armour at work so I need to start learning.


Polishing the feed ramp extension on the chamber is a good starting point and you can get to it without pulling the barrel.

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swat1
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Posted: 4/13/2009 11:17:26 PM
Ill give it a try.
acman145acp
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Posted: 4/17/2009 6:10:17 PM
Great write up. Thanks for the effort.

I tried this today and tested the kit.
It most definitely improved the gb but it was still only reliable about 50% of the time.
I'm not great at tedious stuff like polishing so i'm going to quit while i'm ahead i don't want to mess it up.........

The kit still seems as reliable as any 22 is going to be with federal bulk pack.
I'm just going to keep testing different brands of ammo that people say work and buy every rnd of it i can get my hands on once it proves reliable.
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boatbod
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Posted: 4/17/2009 6:25:15 PM
Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Great write up. Thanks for the effort.

I tried this today and tested the kit.
It most definitely improved the gb but it was still only reliable about 50% of the time.
I'm not great at tedious stuff like polishing so i'm going to quit while i'm ahead i don't want to mess it up.........

The kit still seems as reliable as any 22 is going to be with federal bulk pack.
I'm just going to keep testing different brands of ammo that people say work and buy every rnd of it i can get my hands on once it proves reliable.


Yup, no point wasting much time tuning for GB's unless they (miraculously?) happen to be really accurate in your upper. Find the best ammo and spend the time tuning to get that working reliably.
GS1458
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Posted: 4/18/2009 5:51:08 PM
I've been reading all the posts about how crappy this ammo is: So not being a fool I only bought the bulk pack Federal.

Took my GSG-5 & Spikes ST-22 to the range today, both worked AWSOME with the Federal Bulk. Then a guy wondered over to check out the AR-15 / ST22 and stated he ALWAYS used the REMINGTON Bulk.

I loaded and fired MANY clips of the REMINGTON BULK he had in BOTH guns, and MUCH to my suprise they BOTH feed flawlessly and the REMINGTON shot better groups from the bench @ 25 yards than the FEDERAL..

Going to give them a HARD LOOK... Its hard to find the FEDERAL without paying Cabela's prices ( $20.99 ).
Islandboy671
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Posted: 4/18/2009 10:32:25 PM
Originally Posted By GS1458:
I've been reading all the posts about how crappy this ammo is: So not being a fool I only bought the bulk pack Federal.

Took my GSG-5 & Spikes ST-22 to the range today, both worked AWSOME with the Federal Bulk. Then a guy wondered over to check out the AR-15 / ST22 and stated he ALWAYS used the REMINGTON Bulk.

I loaded and fired MANY clips of the REMINGTON BULK he had in BOTH guns, and MUCH to my suprise they BOTH feed flawlessly and the REMINGTON shot better groups from the bench @ 25 yards than the FEDERAL..

Going to give them a HARD LOOK... Its hard to find the FEDERAL without paying Cabela's prices ( $20.99 ).


clips?
Asmodeus
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Posted: 4/21/2009 6:11:53 AM
I'm doing this later today. I still cannot get anything but federal to feed with any reliability even after 1500 or more rounds down the pipe.
I have already polished the part of the feed ramp and the bottom of the bolt assembly where it potentially could contact the bolt catch.

But if I can shoot Rem GB's then I don't care if it takes me an afternoon polishing - I'll do it. Every time I try to get my hands on the federal ammo its gone now.
stupid craze has people buying up all the ammo every where I go.

When initially trying to break it in, I percussively chambered the Remington GB's and when I could get them to chamber and fire I had no problems with accuracy.
But what I noticed is many of them would not chamber even being inserted straight into the bore of the conversion. I had this same problem with rounds simply being too
big to fit with Winchester, and some CCI as well. Blazer I could not get a single round to chamber feeding them into the adapter (outside of the weapon) by hand.

I think this is going to be the final step to getting this thing to run reliably.
Good post!

boatbod
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Posted: 4/21/2009 7:20:43 AM
If you can't get brand new Rem GB's to chamber while hand inserting them straight in, you're not going to be able to make them run with simple polishing of the barrel.
Note: I make the explicit distinction of "brand new" because once you've tried to chamber them from the magazine, they will be distorted and too big to fit anyway.

What barrel are you running - GM or LW?
Asmodeus
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Posted: 4/21/2009 10:11:51 PM
[Last Edit: 4/21/2009 10:18:52 PM by Asmodeus]
I am merely using the conversion. And I am already post Remington GB's at this point in the drop test.
I set them on the bolt just past the extractor at the typical feed angle and let the recoil spring chamber them.
(Outside of the rifle, on a bench.)

I just got 30 / 30 to feed (pulling randomly from a value pack) THE WHOLE way in to the chamber using this method where before I could get 1/30, IF that to feed.


I had minimal feeding success previous to this even pushing them into the chamber straight with my fingers. This was obviously just a bad chamber adapter.
It was WAY too tight. I knew this, I just thought it would break in after so many rounds. It didn't happen.

I had already taken the tool marks out of the bottom half of the feed ramp. But I was using a polishing stone to do it, couldn't get in tight on the ramp, and was afraid of removing too much material.
So I bought the soft cloth bit you were using and used the side of the bit on the ramp, and plunged it forward on the same angle as the ramp into the chamber. This knocked out some of the edge on the bottom of the chamber / feed ramp area. Then I took the same bit and pressed it directly into the chamber allowing it to open the edges ever so slightly and mirror polish everything smooth. THEN, I took about 20 Q tips and straight rouge and worked the top of the chamber where the nose rides as you mentioned. Then I went over the ENTIRE chamber area lightly about 3-4 times.

I knew it [mine] was extremely tight where even federal ammo wouldn't drop in by hand so I wouldn't recommend doing it this way for the average person. In all honesty I probably should have sent it back to Spikes. But, I honestly felt like this was something I should have done on day 2 of fighting with it. Instead of peckering around with it and putting it off as long as I did.

I'm still in the process of drop testing from various lots of ammo at random to be certain I'm not binding when I drop them in by hand, then at a normal feed angle. So far I've gotten everything to go but Remington Subsonics and CBee22's. I would REALLY like to get the standard Rem Subs to fire with 75% or better consistency. As I was able to get 40% or so before doing anything. And they do have enough energy to cock the hammer so its a matter of taking out any chambering resistance at this point IMO. The federal auto match and bulk pack I still have limited quantities of feeds so well I can literally drop the shell from an inch above the chamber and the weight of the round falling is enough to bottom it out in the chamber. Rounds will actually extract now as well without using a blade to hold the extractor paw tight against the rim while drawing back the bolt.

I think I'm getting some where but I don't want to go much further without testing its operation in the rifle first.


My current problem with the Remmy subs is that it binds on the actual casing and not the nose as you would expect. They almost seem bulged. And I'm not opening a chamber to account for that. I will just try Aguila subs or someone else's instead.
marshs313
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Posted: 4/25/2009 3:29:13 PM
Ive seen as the aboved metioned suggestions on my friends st22 and it did work only problem was that the round wants to hangup on the first round. however it did feed ok afterwards when the charging handle was manually pushed forward with the catch pressed until the bolt was all the way forward then once fed it ran fine with golden bullets.
badazzar15
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Posted: 4/25/2009 3:50:36 PM
Originally Posted By marshs313:
Ive seen as the aboved metioned suggestions on my friends st22 and it did work only problem was that the round wants to hangup on the first round. however it did feed ok afterwards when the charging handle was manually pushed forward with the catch pressed until the bolt was all the way forward then once fed it ran fine with golden bullets.


Charging handle latch to stiff?
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Vinosaur
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Posted: 4/25/2009 6:05:36 PM
I am glad this is here.

I finally got to take my Spikes 22 upper to the range today. I had quite a few problems. I was trying Remington "Thunderbolt" as well as several CCI types including Mini-mags hollow point, CCI mini-mag round nose and CCI Velocitor rounds. None ran especially well, and I did have problems with first round loading. I could tell it liked the "hotter" loads better. I also had some fail to eject and empty shell hang ups inside the receiver. It would eject the round, but the round would hang up above the new round. I will disassemble the upper since I have to clean her anyway and try this to get her working better.

I will say that when she ran, it was VERY accurate and smooth. All and all a good product and I look forward to more time with the upper. Especially at current .223 / 5.56 prices. Also looks as if I'll be buying some Federal Bulk ammo.

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FLRich
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Posted: 4/26/2009 11:50:49 AM
That's the issue Federal Bulk, I have not seen any locally since January and I stop by many stores at least 2-3 times a week. I get lucky sometimes with ammo but never have with the Federal Bulk, I have one box stashed away, I got to find it and try a few but hate to waste it all till' I can find another stash and stock up.

Anyone know where the Federal Bulk can be found mail order ?
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