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 omd
I would post more but I'm too busy shooting
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Posted: 4/19/2012 11:47:24 AM
Soldier systems is reporting that Polish SpecOps are fielding some ACRs in Afghanistan.
Poles with ACRs A more detailed writeup is in SpecOps Magazine SpecOps Poland story Looks like one gun is dipped in Multicam . I'm sure there is a Polish joke in there somewhere. Bottomline...I know we all covet their short ACR barrels. They should have been ours.  |
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Lumpy196
Pink Mofo
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Posted: 4/19/2012 12:36:54 PM
Google "MSBS 5.56"
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Posted: 4/19/2012 8:16:16 PM
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Google "MSBS 5.56" Look closer  |
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sinlessorrow
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Posted: 4/21/2012 4:54:46 PM
[Last Edit: 4/21/2012 4:56:17 PM by sinlessorrow]
you know what else i see in that picture?
I see rifles that are spotless like they have never seen combat and a backwards ARMS #71L-F on the right hand rifle i mean cmon why cant people figure out how to put BUIS on? why is that such a challenge? |
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cmeyer001
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Posted: 4/22/2012 9:54:18 AM
I dont know, those Polish special ops guys are no joke, they have a very solid reputation.
If they are carrying them, they will be using them. |
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Blackwind
Semper Fi - Recon Monkey
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Posted: 4/25/2012 10:25:21 PM
Originally Posted By cmeyer001:
I dont know, those Polish special ops guys are no joke, they have a very solid reputation. If they are carrying them, they will be using them. This. I'll be curious to see what their opinions are once they have a chance to really run them. Till then......I'll play wif mine. 
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Posted: 4/25/2012 11:09:16 PM
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
Originally Posted By cmeyer001:
I dont know, those Polish special ops guys are no joke, they have a very solid reputation. If they are carrying them, they will be using them. This. I'll be curious to see what their opinions are once they have a chance to really run them. Till then......I'll play wif mine.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/johndal21/Weapons/ACR015.jpg http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/johndal21/Weapons/ACR011.jpg Accentuated the M4 profile 
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Blackwind
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Posted: 4/25/2012 11:49:34 PM
Originally Posted By BoovarBjarki:
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
Originally Posted By cmeyer001:
I dont know, those Polish special ops guys are no joke, they have a very solid reputation. If they are carrying them, they will be using them. This. I'll be curious to see what their opinions are once they have a chance to really run them. Till then......I'll play wif mine.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/johndal21/Weapons/ACR015.jpg http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/johndal21/Weapons/ACR011.jpg Accentuated the M4 profile
Blame Bushmaster for the M4 profile.  Not a fan of pencil barrels so not something I was interested in. |
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Posted: 4/25/2012 11:53:53 PM
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
Originally Posted By BoovarBjarki:
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
Originally Posted By cmeyer001:
I dont know, those Polish special ops guys are no joke, they have a very solid reputation. If they are carrying them, they will be using them. This. I'll be curious to see what their opinions are once they have a chance to really run them. Till then......I'll play wif mine.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/johndal21/Weapons/ACR015.jpg http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/johndal21/Weapons/ACR011.jpg Accentuated the M4 profile
Blame Bushmaster for the M4 profile. Not a fan of pencil barrels so not something I was interested in.<just keeping the immaturity going strong. Seriously though, it looks good and I was just giving you crap. |
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omd
I would post more but I'm too busy shooting
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Posted: 4/26/2012 11:50:41 AM
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
Blame Bushmaster for the M4 profile. Not a fan of pencil barrels so not something I was interested in.Actually blame the Freedom Group bean-counters, Remington Machine shop and then the Bushmaster guys. The M4 profile barrel allows substantial savings in their manufacturing costs. I was told the numbers but have forgotten the exact figures. Also, just as critical at that time, the M4 profile barrels saved a good bit of machine time when Remington was still getting their plant to full capacity. For them , when the program started, it was a no-brainer to go with the M4 profile. |
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Alien
Not the illegal kind...
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Posted: 4/26/2012 7:11:23 PM
Originally Posted By omd:
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
Blame Bushmaster for the M4 profile. Not a fan of pencil barrels so not something I was interested in.Actually blame the Freedom Group bean-counters, Remington Machine shop and then the Bushmaster guys. The M4 profile barrel allows substantial savings in their manufacturing costs. I was told the numbers but have forgotten the exact figures. Also, just as critical at that time, the M4 profile barrels saved a good bit of machine time when Remington was still getting their plant to full capacity. For them , when the program started, it was a no-brainer to go with the M4 profile. And it probably cost them a lot of sales. One of the major gripes people have about it is the 1/9 twist and M4 profile. |
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Blackwind
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Posted: 4/26/2012 7:42:18 PM
Originally Posted By Alien:
And it probably cost them a lot of sales. One of the major gripes people have about it is the 1/9 twist and M4 profile. This. But this is what happens when bean counters make business decisions. |
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Posted: 4/27/2012 3:16:27 PM
Who ever made the decision was definitely not a shooter.
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Posted: 4/30/2012 7:30:55 PM
[Last Edit: 4/30/2012 7:37:39 PM by wikioutdoor]
Originally Posted By Alien:
And it probably cost them a lot of sales. One of the major gripes people have about it is the 1/9 twist and M4 profile. Because to those people facts don't matter other peoples idea of a 1 size must fit all spec does - these are facts with the standard 1/9 twist barrel Ammunition Bullet Weight Velocity Group Size Lake City SS109 62 3067 1.5" Winchester FMJ 55 3012 1.87" Winchester FMJ 62 2954 0.75" Black Hills Match HP 69 2800 0.68" Buffalo Bore Sniper HP 77 2745 0.87" Handload TSX 62 2931 1.25" Wolf Gold Match HP 75 2639 1.18" Looks pretty accurate to me. Also the m4 profile reduces barrel harmonics which makes follow up shots like double taps inherently more accurate. BTW it's not a standard bargain basement mass production barrel. Also I know we in America are jaded because our military constantly buys untested over priced garbage that doesn't work. But in other countries they actually do and they maintain weapons to a fairly high standard. Because they can't afford to beat the crap out of there weapons. And it looks unprofessional, which the Polish would rather avoid for obvious reasons. |
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Alien
Not the illegal kind...
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Posted: 4/30/2012 8:09:42 PM
Originally Posted By wikioutdoor:
Originally Posted By Alien:
And it probably cost them a lot of sales. One of the major gripes people have about it is the 1/9 twist and M4 profile. Because to those people facts don't matter other peoples idea of a 1 size must fit all spec does - these are facts with the standard 1/9 twist barrel Ammunition Bullet Weight Velocity Group Size Lake City SS109 62 3067 1.5" Winchester FMJ 55 3012 1.87" Winchester FMJ 62 2954 0.75" Black Hills Match HP 69 2800 0.68" Buffalo Bore Sniper HP 77 2745 0.87" Handload TSX 62 2931 1.25" Wolf Gold Match HP 75 2639 1.18" Looks pretty accurate to me. Also the m4 profile reduces barrel harmonics which makes follow up shots like double taps inherently more accurate. BTW it's not a standard bargain basement mass production barrel. Also I know we in America are jaded because our military constantly buys untested over priced garbage that doesn't work. But in other countries they actually do and they maintain weapons to a fairly high standard. Because they can't afford to beat the crap out of there weapons. And it looks unprofessional, which the Polish would rather avoid for obvious reasons. I know they're purpose built, cold hammer forged, and melonited high quality barrels. I'm just saying the market the ACR appeals to would have preferred more consistent profile (no M4 notch) and a 1/7 twist barrel. It made absolutely ZERO sense to do what they did. They went to a lot of effort to do what most people that wanted the gun didn't want. And I don't know about barrel harmonics. I'm no expert, but I've read that the M4 notch is detrimental, not beneficial in that regard. |
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Blackwind
Semper Fi - Recon Monkey
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Posted: 4/30/2012 8:26:13 PM
Originally Posted By wikioutdoor:
Because to those people facts don't matter other peoples idea of a 1 size must fit all spec does - these are facts with the standard 1/9 twist barrel Hate to break it to you but no, accuracy has not been consistent with ACR's. This has been attributed to barrel twist, locking collar, piston harmonics to the color of the sunset.  |
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Posted: 5/1/2012 9:56:04 PM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2012 9:58:49 PM by wikioutdoor]
I don't waste my time speculating on off hand shooters - gun blast did bench rest and that's the only true way to accurately test a rifle. I don't have any problem with the barrel system and to be honest it's much more accurate with the crap tula that I use than I could have imagined it would be.
What they did by going to 1/9 makes alot more sense than 1/7. The ammo listed above is extremely popular and represents the bulk of the average shooters ammo choices overall. I have a couple of 1/7 twist ar's and they arent as accurate off hand - i have never bench rested them but I don't shoot like that and I am not trying to get precise moa evaluations like a reviewer might. A friend of mine works in the .mil industry and he point blank told me after shooting mine he didnt think the hk416's were as accurate - another friend laughed this ass off but when I pressed him all he could fall back on is that the seals use them which kinda discounts the whole skill set of being a seal and doesnt really do much for the rifle in real terms except hype. It's interesting to see the polish use the .mil acr in lieu of HK since they have such a rich tradition with them in the past. I've asked bm reps if they would do a shoot off but I have only spoken to some low level lackeys who are not authorized but I bet that would show alot of haterz up. As far as the barrel goes it should be obvious to start off with a pencil barrel if it was a simple matter of cost, way less machining = way less money. But the m4 design has been proven by other manufacturers too in the past so I think it was the best move - I would love to see a fluted or dimpled version - I even sent mine out for the service but adco said the carbon content in mine was too high so they couldn't. |
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Blackwind
Semper Fi - Recon Monkey
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Posted: 5/2/2012 12:59:21 AM
[Last Edit: 5/2/2012 1:00:57 AM by Blackwind]
Originally Posted By wikioutdoor:
I don't waste my time speculating on off hand shooters - gun blast did bench rest and that's the only true way to accurately test a rifle. I don't have any problem with the barrel system and to be honest it's much more accurate with the crap tula that I use than I could have imagined it would be. Yes because the other gun writers/gun experts : A) Are off hand shooters B) Did not bench rest for testing 
Many of them have cited and found issues with accuracy. In one case getting and testing three different rifles for the same article. Groups varying with one shooting a 4 inch group at 100 yds, (it should be noted 5 inch groups is acceptable for the M4) the second turning in a 1.5 in group and the final turning in something in between. I squeeze every ounce of accuracy out of my personal rifle, I give it a healthy thump with a rubber mallet and crank it down a notch or two. From the bench, after a light beating, (it seems to like it) I was typically seeing groups in the 1.2 in range. What they did by going to 1/9 makes alot more sense than 1/7. Makes zero sense considering this was a weapon from the beginning being targeted for military use. The ammo listed above is extremely popular and represents the bulk of the average shooters ammo choices overall. I have a couple of 1/7 twist ar's and they arent as accurate off hand - i have never bench rested them but I don't shoot like that and I am not trying to get precise moa evaluations like a reviewer might. You've made little to no sense with the above. On one hand you declare that bench shooting is the only way to truly ascertain a weapons accuracy and the next state you've never bench rested the 1/7. Ehhhh ok. So you are speaking and declaring something as fact and then declaring you haven't actually done it. 
A friend of mine works in the .mil industry and he point blank told me after shooting mine he didnt think the hk416's were as accurate - another friend laughed this ass off but when I pressed him all he could fall back on is that the seals use them which kinda discounts the whole skill set of being a seal and doesnt really do much for the rifle in real terms except hype. It's interesting to see the polish use the .mil acr in lieu of HK since they have such a rich tradition with them in the past. 10.4" HK416 in tests at HK in 2004 fired @ 1" groups at 100 meters from a fixture shooting 77 grain MK262 MOD 0 ammo AFTER firing 12,500 rounds. They are, in fact, accurate rifles. Cold hammer forged barrels usually are. I've asked bm reps if they would do a shoot off but I have only spoken to some low level lackeys who are not authorized but I bet that would show alot of haterz up. As far as the barrel goes it should be obvious to start off with a pencil barrel if it was a simple matter of cost, way less machining = way less money. Doubtful considering again, this weapon was tracked for military use from the beginning so a pencil barrel would have been unacceptable. But the m4 design has been proven by other manufacturers too in the past so I think it was the best move - I would love to see a fluted or dimpled version - I even sent mine out for the service but adco said the carbon content in mine was too high so they couldn't. |
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Posted: 5/2/2012 3:01:27 AM
I don't really care about the 1/9 twist barrels, but the M4 profile seems to make the rifle a tad unbalanced. Its not terrible, but just seems kind of half-assed on such an expensive rifle.
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Posted: 5/2/2012 12:23:05 PM
[Last Edit: 5/2/2012 12:30:02 PM by wikioutdoor]
Honestly you need to get your facts straight - the SCAR is considered a military rifle it has a pencil barrel even in 308.
Secondly the most recent article on the ACR was done offhand by SWAT and I know this because I contacted them about it. I am not a magazine used to make purchasing decisions about firearms, if I was I would include both kinds of testing done over an average of users. The only sense I don't seem to be making with you is smaller words that you can understand perhaps. Also at no point was the bushmaster ACR tracked for military use, ever. There has always been a divide between the civilian model and the Remington military model from day one. And finally the rounds HK tested were under there own test conditions not verified by anyone else. I think I would much rather trust a unbiased 3rd party with off the shelf ammunition tested in normal circumstances which also indicates similar accuracy from the ACR possibly better depending on how the reduction of barrel length would be performed. I can tell you how they might even be able to cheat on these tests based on some of the facilities that I have seen but that would be just speculation on my part. Originally Posted By Thrasymachus:
I don't really care about the 1/9 twist barrels, but the M4 profile seems to make the rifle a tad unbalanced. Its not terrible, but just seems kind of half-assed on such an expensive rifle. And yet no one has proven that any change to the barrel will produce better results. Sure you can probably build some one hit wonders for target shooting but that's a different kind of rifle than it's intended purpose. Try to double tap a 16 inch scar and see how accurate the second shot is. |
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Blackwind
Semper Fi - Recon Monkey
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Posted: 5/2/2012 9:18:12 PM
Originally Posted By wikioutdoor:
Honestly you need to get your facts straight - the SCAR is considered a military rifle it has a pencil barrel even in 308. Oh really?
First, it began with a heavier barrel. It was decided because of the weapons overall weight, to attempt a pencil barrel on the SCAR to bring it into an acceptable weight range. You're right, I know nothing about these topics. (cough cough) Weight Issues and Barrel profile decisions Please feel free cite any other pencil barrel military weapon in service. This is and was an exception, not the norm. Secondly the most recent article on the ACR was done offhand by SWAT and I know this because I contacted them about it. I am not a magazine used to make purchasing decisions about firearms, if I was I would include both kinds of testing done over an average of users. The only sense I don't seem to be making with you is smaller words that you can understand perhaps. Also at no point was the bushmaster ACR tracked for military use, ever. There has always been a divide between the civilian model and the Remington military model from day one. For attempting to question a persons intelligence, you are none to bright.
In point of fact, it very much was, from the very beginning. "Originally scheduled for release in the second quarter of 2008, Bushmaster announced on May 16, 2008, that the consumer release would be delayed until Q1 2009, owing to a focus on military projects." This on Bushmasters website and verbatim also announced right here on ARFCOM in the Bushmaster forum. And finally the rounds HK tested were under there own test conditions not verified by anyone else. I think I would much rather trust a unbiased 3rd party with off the shelf ammunition tested in normal circumstances which also indicates similar accuracy from the ACR possibly better depending on how the reduction of barrel length would be performed. I can tell you how they might even be able to cheat on these tests based on some of the facilities that I have seen but that would be just speculation on my part. Seriously, guy get off the Internet already!! 
In point of fact the testing was done in conjunction with and for US Special Forces. Going into service with Delta Force on 04. "In exhaustive tests with the help of Delta Force, the upgraded weapon was subjected to mud and dust without maintenance, and fired day after day. Despite this treatment, the rifle showed problems in only 1 of 15,000 rounds – fully 3 times the reliability shown by the M4 in US Army studies. The H&K 416 was declared ready in 2004." ~US Major Chaz Bowser (played a leading role in SCAR rifle design program) Originally Posted By Thrasymachus:
I don't really care about the 1/9 twist barrels, but the M4 profile seems to make the rifle a tad unbalanced. Its not terrible, but just seems kind of half-assed on such an expensive rifle. And yet no one has proven that any change to the barrel will produce better results. Actually, they have but keep telling yourself that. Sure you can probably build some one hit wonders for target shooting but that's a different kind of rifle than it's intended purpose. Try to double tap a 16 inch scar and see how accurate the second shot is. Hate to break it to you little fella, but I've done it out to 100 easy with a SCAR/ACR/AK/AR. Does a 45-70 count? LOL You might have heard of this guy below....he clearly is faking it.
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Posted: 5/2/2012 9:38:52 PM
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
Originally Posted By wikioutdoor:
Honestly you need to get your facts straight - the SCAR is considered a military rifle it has a pencil barrel even in 308. Oh really?
First, it began with a heavier barrel. It was decided because of the weapons overall weight, to attempt a pencil barrel on the SCAR to bring it into an acceptable weight range. You're right, I know nothing about these topics. (cough cough) Weight Issues and Barrel profile decisions Please feel free cite any other pencil barrel military weapon in service. This is and was an exception, not the norm. Secondly the most recent article on the ACR was done offhand by SWAT and I know this because I contacted them about it. I am not a magazine used to make purchasing decisions about firearms, if I was I would include both kinds of testing done over an average of users. The only sense I don't seem to be making with you is smaller words that you can understand perhaps. Also at no point was the bushmaster ACR tracked for military use, ever. There has always been a divide between the civilian model and the Remington military model from day one. For attempting to question a persons intelligence, you are none to bright.
In point of fact, it very much was, from the very beginning. "Originally scheduled for release in the second quarter of 2008, Bushmaster announced on May 16, 2008, that the consumer release would be delayed until Q1 2009, owing to a focus on military projects." This on Bushmasters website and verbatim also announced right here on ARFCOM in the Bushmaster forum. And finally the rounds HK tested were under there own test conditions not verified by anyone else. I think I would much rather trust a unbiased 3rd party with off the shelf ammunition tested in normal circumstances which also indicates similar accuracy from the ACR possibly better depending on how the reduction of barrel length would be performed. I can tell you how they might even be able to cheat on these tests based on some of the facilities that I have seen but that would be just speculation on my part. Seriously, guy get off the Internet already!!
In point of fact the testing was done in conjunction with and for US Special Forces. Going into service with Delta Force on 04. "In exhaustive tests with the help of Delta Force, the upgraded weapon was subjected to mud and dust without maintenance, and fired day after day. Despite this treatment, the rifle showed problems in only 1 of 15,000 rounds – fully 3 times the reliability shown by the M4 in US Army studies. The H&K 416 was declared ready in 2004." ~US Major Chaz Bowser (played a leading role in SCAR rifle design program) Originally Posted By Thrasymachus:
I don't really care about the 1/9 twist barrels, but the M4 profile seems to make the rifle a tad unbalanced. Its not terrible, but just seems kind of half-assed on such an expensive rifle. And yet no one has proven that any change to the barrel will produce better results. Actually, they have but keep telling yourself that. Sure you can probably build some one hit wonders for target shooting but that's a different kind of rifle than it's intended purpose. Try to double tap a 16 inch scar and see how accurate the second shot is. Hate to break it to you little fella, but I've done it out to 100 easy with a SCAR/ACR/AK/AR. Does a 45-70 count? LOL You might have heard of this guy below....he clearly is faking it.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-e8nnoTLIg
Dude you read too far into shit. I have read your responses a few and I still don't know how you came up with some of your replies in those directions. |
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Posted: 5/2/2012 9:47:35 PM
Originally Posted By Thrasymachus:
I don't really care about the 1/9 twist barrels, but the M4 profile seems to make the rifle a tad unbalanced. Its not terrible, but just seems kind of half-assed on such an expensive rifle. I chopped my barrels to 16" oal with pinned fh. It helps with maneuvering and a little with balancing but the rifle balances out better with a loaded mag. I am thinking about sending a barrel in to get it profiled to a medium contour or fluted as is. Seems to help others with the balancing. I know with my LWRC rifles they put the VLTOR EMOD stock on to help counter the weight for better balancing. So the pistons definitely play a role in the weight. However, not as bad as some make it out to be. |
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Blackwind
Semper Fi - Recon Monkey
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Posted: 5/2/2012 9:55:11 PM
Originally Posted By BoovarBjarki:
Dude you read too far into shit. I have read your responses a few and I still don't know how you came up with some of your replies in those directions. BooverBjarki it would actually require your learning to be objective. Reading comprehension of course would also help. There is nothing obscure about the response. You would also be one of the last I'd waste my time attempting to explain it to. |
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Posted: 5/2/2012 10:32:04 PM
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
Originally Posted By BoovarBjarki:
Dude you read too far into shit. I have read your responses a few and I still don't know how you came up with some of your replies in those directions. BooverBjarki it would actually require your learning to be objective. Reading comprehension of course would also help. There is nothing obscure about the response. You would also be one of the last I'd waste my time attempting to explain it to. Blackwind, you sure do crack me up. When and where is your next carbine class? |
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Blackwind
Semper Fi - Recon Monkey
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Posted: 5/2/2012 11:23:01 PM
Originally Posted By BoovarBjarki:
Originally Posted By Blackwind:
Originally Posted By BoovarBjarki:
Dude you read too far into shit. I have read your responses a few and I still don't know how you came up with some of your replies in those directions. BooverBjarki it would actually require your learning to be objective. Reading comprehension of course would also help. There is nothing obscure about the response. You would also be one of the last I'd waste my time attempting to explain it to. Blackwind, you sure do crack me up. When and where is your next carbine class? I do not teach "carbine classes." I'd recommend your contacting a local instructor to address your "needs." |
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