User Panel
Posted: 9/22/2014 3:19:20 PM EDT
With Larue announcing that they plan to release stripped lowers again into the wild sometime soon, I want to get a 12" stealth upper to go with that lower... to have an SBR to complete my Larue family.
Can someone walk me through the process because I cannot seem to get a clear picture... and my dealer has me very confused about the process so I wanted to go to the experts. I assume once lower is in hand via FFL, I fill out Form 1. Once approved and have stamp in hand I can order a 12" stealth upper and I'm ready to go? Somebody tell me it is this simple... Does that upper need to go through a class 3 dealer at that point if I have the stamp? Do I need to then have the lower engraved? Seems like I must be missing something here... Sorry if these questions seem simple, but I'm fairly new to class 3 paperwork and rules... I assume they make it confusing because they don't want us to have them. Thanks |
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[#1]
Get the stripped lower and do a form 1. You can go ahead and get the upper, but only if you do not build the lower as a "rifle", I.e. no buttstock for it. Don't even buy the buttstock until you have the stamp in hand. What I do is make the lower into a pistol with the sig brace and shoot it. Once the stamp arrives put a buttstock on it and you are gtg. The upper will not have to go through an ffl, just the lower as it has the serial #.
Edit: I have my lowers engraved before I submit paperwork in case the engravor makes an error. |
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[#2]
Quoted: With Larue announcing that they plan to release stripped lowers again into the wild sometime soon, I want to get a 12" stealth upper to go with that lower... to have an SBR to complete my Larue family. Can someone walk me through the process because I cannot seem to get a clear picture... and my dealer has me very confused about the process so I wanted to go to the experts. I assume once lower is in hand via FFL, I fill out Form 1. Once approved and have stamp in hand I can order a 12" stealth upper and I'm ready to go? Somebody tell me it is this simple... Does that upper need to go through a class 3 dealer at that point if I have the stamp? Do I need to then have the lower engraved? Seems like I must be missing something here... Sorry if these questions seem simple, but I'm fairly new to class 3 paperwork and rules... I assume they make it confusing because they don't want us to have them. Thanks View Quote You can efile the form 1 yourself and pay the $200 tax stamp online. Super easy. Helpful links: |
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[#3]
efiled Form 1's (if you have a trust) are coming back in a few weeks. almost not worth it to spend the cash on a pistol buffer tube and Sig brace to just take it back off after a few weeks. just build the lower sans buffer tube, then finish the build in a few weeks with your stock/buffer tube after the stamp comes in.
also remember the engraving must be done to the lower and you have to add the SBR to your Schedule A in your trust before you assemble the SBR. |
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[#4]
any recommendations on who to do the engraving?
thanks for the info guys - this sounds all too simple - exactly what i was hoping - i do have a trust in place, so i did hear that turnaround times were pretty good as of late. again - much appreciated - my FFL was trying to make it much more complicated than it needed to be... just waiting on those larue lowers to go on sale... |
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[#5]
Quoted: efiled Form 1's (if you have a trust) are coming back in a few weeks. almost not worth it to spend the cash on a pistol buffer tube and Sig brace to just take it back off after a few weeks. just build the lower sans buffer tube, then finish the build in a few weeks with your stock/buffer tube after the stamp comes in. also remember the engraving must be done to the lower and you have to add the SBR to your Schedule A in your trust before you assemble the SBR. View Quote I thought they already came back a month or two ago?
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[#6]
Quoted:
Did they go away again? I thought they already came back a month or two ago? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
efiled Form 1's (if you have a trust) are coming back in a few weeks. almost not worth it to spend the cash on a pistol buffer tube and Sig brace to just take it back off after a few weeks. just build the lower sans buffer tube, then finish the build in a few weeks with your stock/buffer tube after the stamp comes in. also remember the engraving must be done to the lower and you have to add the SBR to your Schedule A in your trust before you assemble the SBR. I thought they already came back a month or two ago? He means the approvals & stamps are coming back in a few weeks. |
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[#7]
Here is what I did, X2...
Ordered Pistol Buffertube kits (to avoid possible intent) Ordered and received a Larue Lower and another brand... Built them as a pistol. Called Guntrustlawyer,com, got trust Filed 2 Form 1s Trust, Paper, no efile back then. Ordered a 10.5" and 12" Upper Put on lowers (had too shoot'em. Got Form 1s back approved. Dropped off at the LGS, that does engraving for the NFA requirement Picked up, put Magpul stocks on Been Shooting since... |
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[#8]
Quoted:
He means the approvals & stamps are coming back in a few weeks. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
efiled Form 1's (if you have a trust) are coming back in a few weeks. almost not worth it to spend the cash on a pistol buffer tube and Sig brace to just take it back off after a few weeks. just build the lower sans buffer tube, then finish the build in a few weeks with your stock/buffer tube after the stamp comes in. also remember the engraving must be done to the lower and you have to add the SBR to your Schedule A in your trust before you assemble the SBR. I thought they already came back a month or two ago? He means the approvals & stamps are coming back in a few weeks. Pretty sure this is what he means. |
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[#9]
I sent mine to grey laser in TX. If you are in the Charlotte area I will be happy to meet you and let you see it. My efiled form 1 took 31 days and I hear they are only a few weeks now.
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[#10]
Quoted:
I sent mine to grey laser in TX. If you are in the Charlotte area I will be happy to meet you and let you see it. My efiled form 1 took 31 days and I hear they are only a few weeks now. View Quote Thanks man - not too far from Charlotte - thanks for the tip. Hopefully we will see those Larue lowers available soon and can get the ball rolling on this process. |
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[#11]
JointDoc, for what it's worth, I would suggest the following. You say you have a LaRue family, well then eFile against 1 or more now and you'll have a valid lower to use with any SBR upper. Cost is $200.00 plus 65.00 or so for engraving. Grey Laser engraving did 1 of my 4 SBRs and I highly recommend their work and work ethics.
Secondly, get a new stripped lower and because it will be registered as an "other" you can easily use it as a transition pistol when acquiring new "uppers". I highly doubt you'll ever be satisfied with a single SBR or upper for that matter. 5.56 and 300BO are the perfect companions as they use the same receiver and magazine and for that matter the same cartridge at least at the beginning. Once you've built a .22LR upper and especially if you've suppressed it, you'll want a dedicated platform for it as well. By all means purchase a LaRue stripped lower and stealth upper but while you are waiting for these to come to market, take advantage of the 21 day turn around for eForm1s and get into the game quickly. I practice what I just suggested, my latest SBR is my TOBR lower |
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[#12]
Quoted:
Get the stripped lower and do a form 1. You can go ahead and get the upper, but only if you do not build the lower as a "rifle", I.e. no buttstock for it. Don't even buy the buttstock until you have the stamp in hand. What I do is make the lower into a pistol with the sig brace and shoot it. Once the stamp arrives put a buttstock on it and you are gtg. The upper will not have to go through an ffl, just the lower as it has the serial #. Edit: I have my lowers engraved before I submit paperwork in case the engravor makes an error. View Quote 1+ to all of this. This is exactly what I do. Also, form a trust as explained by another poster. The main advantages of the trust are: 1. You don't have to bother with fingerprints or LEO sign off and 2. You can use the Efile system for your form 1. I e-filed 2 lowers recently and they took 3 weeks for stamp to become approved. I did paper form last year for SBR and it took 7 months. Big difference. Times on paper are slowly getting better but at it's worst after the 13ers started filing I had one suppressor that took almost 10 months. I've got one in the system now that is projected to take 6 months or so. Check the forum on Class 3 on ARF. There are guys there who can walk you completely through the process. WARNING: Collecting stamps becomes very addictive. With a SBR you will certainly want/need a suppressor. After getting that suppressor you will want one for all of your firearms. Then, you will want another SBR or two. I started like you a few years ago and now have 10 stamps. It never ends. |
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[#13]
Grey Laser did the engraving for all of mine. Sent 2 to him a couple weeks ago. Sent on Monday, had them back to me in TN by Thurs. Very, very nice work and great guy to deal with.
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[#14]
FYI,
For those contemplating eFile vs. paper form, I recently filed a paper Form 1 in May and received it in less than 4 months. Wait times are declining on the paper forms, and I just like having the physical stamp for peace of mind. |
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[#15]
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[#16]
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[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
...just waiting on those larue lowers to go on sale... What lowers? Is something happening with lowers? A.W.D. You didn't get the memo?? Got it. Responded. Heard nothing else... ...still heard nothing else... ...still heard nothing else. A.W.D. |
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[#18]
Quoted: JointDoc, for what it's worth, I would suggest the following. You say you have a LaRue family, well then eFile against 1 or more now and you'll have a valid lower to use with any SBR upper. Cost is $200.00 plus 65.00 or so for engraving. Grey Laser engraving did 1 of my 4 SBRs and I highly recommend their work and work ethics. Secondly, get a new stripped lower and because it will be registered as an "other" you can easily use it as a transition pistol when acquiring new "uppers". I highly doubt you'll ever be satisfied with a single SBR or upper for that matter. 5.56 and 300BO are the perfect companions as they use the same receiver and magazine and for that matter the same cartridge at least at the beginning. Once you've built a .22LR upper and especially if you've suppressed it, you'll want a dedicated platform for it as well. By all means purchase a LaRue stripped lower and stealth upper but while you are waiting for these to come to market, take advantage of the 21 day turn around for eForm1s and get into the game quickly. I practice what I just suggested, my latest SBR is my TOBR lower View Quote I did not think you had to engrave anything on a Form 4 SBR... As you are not the manufacter or assembler of said SBR, like a Form 1... I thought Form 4 was for if it was made and is being transferred too you... |
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[#19]
Quoted:
I did not think you had to engrave anything on a Form 4 SBR... As you are not the manufacter or assembler of said SBR, like a Form 1... I thought Form 4 was for if it was made and is being transferred too you... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
JointDoc, for what it's worth, I would suggest the following. You say you have a LaRue family, well then eFile against 1 or more now and you'll have a valid lower to use with any SBR upper. Cost is $200.00 plus 65.00 or so for engraving. Grey Laser engraving did 1 of my 4 SBRs and I highly recommend their work and work ethics. Secondly, get a new stripped lower and because it will be registered as an "other" you can easily use it as a transition pistol when acquiring new "uppers". I highly doubt you'll ever be satisfied with a single SBR or upper for that matter. 5.56 and 300BO are the perfect companions as they use the same receiver and magazine and for that matter the same cartridge at least at the beginning. Once you've built a .22LR upper and especially if you've suppressed it, you'll want a dedicated platform for it as well. By all means purchase a LaRue stripped lower and stealth upper but while you are waiting for these to come to market, take advantage of the 21 day turn around for eForm1s and get into the game quickly. I practice what I just suggested, my latest SBR is my TOBR lower I did not think you had to engrave anything on a Form 4 SBR... As you are not the manufacter or assembler of said SBR, like a Form 1... I thought Form 4 was for if it was made and is being transferred too you... You were right the first time. Form 1= Engrave with Name (or trust, corp, llc, etc), City & State Form 4= No engraving required by the transferee |
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[#20]
Quoted:
JointDoc, for what it's worth, I would suggest the following. You say you have a LaRue family, well then eFile against 1 or more now and you'll have a valid lower to use with any SBR upper. Cost is $200.00 plus 65.00 or so for engraving. Grey Laser engraving did 1 of my 4 SBRs and I highly recommend their work and work ethics. Secondly, get a new stripped lower and because it will be registered as an "other" you can easily use it as a transition pistol when acquiring new "uppers". I highly doubt you'll ever be satisfied with a single SBR or upper for that matter. 5.56 and 300BO are the perfect companions as they use the same receiver and magazine and for that matter the same cartridge at least at the beginning. Once you've built a .22LR upper and especially if you've suppressed it, you'll want a dedicated platform for it as well. By all means purchase a LaRue stripped lower and stealth upper but while you are waiting for these to come to market, take advantage of the 21 day turn around for eForm1s and get into the game quickly. I practice what I just suggested, my latest SBR is my TOBR lower View Quote Great idea - thanks for all of the good advice guys - much appreciated... |
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[#21]
OK, quick questions on getting a Form1 done without the upper in hand.
1. One of the efile question is OAL, without the upper, how do you get the OAL? 2. Is OAL measured with or without the flash hider? I know it's measured with the stock fully extended. A useful post on efiling is here: Efile Form 1 I read through it when I did my only Form 1 & it helped a lot. Getting ready do to exactly when you want to do, 12" ish Stealth on a LT Lower, but my lower is already engraved. I used: Veritas Machining There is a post here about them: Michigan Hometown Forum |
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[#22]
Quoted: OK, quick questions on getting a Form1 done without the upper in hand. 1. One of the efile question is OAL, without the upper, how do you get the OAL? 2. Is OAL measured with or without the flash hider? I know it's measured with the stock fully extended. A useful post on efiling is here: Efile Form 1 I read through it when I did my only Form 1 & it helped a lot. Getting ready do to exactly when you want to do, 12" ish Stealth on a LT Lower, but my lower is already engraved. I used: Veritas Machining There is a post here about them: Michigan Hometown Forum View Quote I can look up what I put as my OAL on my Form 1 for my 12" Stealth later tonight if it'll help. |
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[#23]
coming back = form1 to stamp being sent to applicant after approval
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[#24]
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[#25]
Quoted:
I can look up what I put as my OAL on my Form 1 for my 12" Stealth later tonight if it'll help. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
OK, quick questions on getting a Form1 done without the upper in hand. 1. One of the efile question is OAL, without the upper, how do you get the OAL? 2. Is OAL measured with or without the flash hider? I know it's measured with the stock fully extended. A useful post on efiling is here: Efile Form 1 I read through it when I did my only Form 1 & it helped a lot. Getting ready do to exactly when you want to do, 12" ish Stealth on a LT Lower, but my lower is already engraved. I used: Veritas Machining There is a post here about them: Michigan Hometown Forum I can look up what I put as my OAL on my Form 1 for my 12" Stealth later tonight if it'll help. Measure one of your rilfe lowers with buttstock full extended. Add 12" for the barrel and 1/8" (give or take) for the barrel extension. |
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[#26]
Quoted:
You were right the first time. Form 1= Engrave with Name (or trust, corp, llc, etc), City & State Form 4= No engraving required by the transferee View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
JointDoc, for what it's worth, I would suggest the following. You say you have a LaRue family, well then eFile against 1 or more now and you'll have a valid lower to use with any SBR upper. Cost is $200.00 plus 65.00 or so for engraving. Grey Laser engraving did 1 of my 4 SBRs and I highly recommend their work and work ethics. Secondly, get a new stripped lower and because it will be registered as an "other" you can easily use it as a transition pistol when acquiring new "uppers". I highly doubt you'll ever be satisfied with a single SBR or upper for that matter. 5.56 and 300BO are the perfect companions as they use the same receiver and magazine and for that matter the same cartridge at least at the beginning. Once you've built a .22LR upper and especially if you've suppressed it, you'll want a dedicated platform for it as well. By all means purchase a LaRue stripped lower and stealth upper but while you are waiting for these to come to market, take advantage of the 21 day turn around for eForm1s and get into the game quickly. I practice what I just suggested, my latest SBR is my TOBR lower I did not think you had to engrave anything on a Form 4 SBR... As you are not the manufacter or assembler of said SBR, like a Form 1... I thought Form 4 was for if it was made and is being transferred too you... You were right the first time. Form 1= Engrave with Name (or trust, corp, llc, etc), City & State Form 4= No engraving required by the transferee ATF FORM 1 Box 4 a. Name and Location of Original Manufacturer of Firearm (Receiver) (If prototype, furnish plans and specifications) (See Instruction 2i) Instruction 2i from the Form reads: i. Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number . If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g. If you look at the BATFE NFA Handbook, it gives you a definition of "Manufacturer," I am not a manufacturer. Is a stripped lower receiver considered an existing firearm? The instructions of NFA being made from parts "name and address...serial number... implies I am machining out my own. From the NFA HAndbook: 6.2.1 Description of firearm. If an existing firearm or firearm receiver is being used, the name and location of the original manufacturer of the weapon should be entered in Block 4(a). If the applicant is making a completely new firearm, the applicant’s name and location should be entered in Block 4(a). The type of firearm being made, i.e., short barrel rifle, short barrel shotgun, any other weapon, silencer or destructive device, is to be entered in Block 4(b). The caliber or gauge of the firearm is to be entered in Block 4(c). If a model designation has been assigned to the firearm, that designation is to be placed in Block 4(d). If the weapon has no model designation, enter “none” in Block 4(d). The length of the barrel is to be entered, in inches, in Block 4(e) and the overall length of the firearm is to be entered, in inches, in Block 4(f). I am using an existing Firearm receiver, so Larue Tactical goes in box 4a, and I use the existing Serial number, I don't have to engrave anything. I think if you read the NFA Handbook as well as the definitions, there is no clear cut direction mandating that you have to engrave an existing manufactured receiver. |
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[#28]
Quoted:
After numerous phone calls to the NFA Branch, comparing notes with my local SOT, and bouncing around Arfcom, this is what my approved Form 1 looks like. http://i62.tinypic.com/dmd56b.jpg Box 4a gets the original manufacturer's name, their city & state. Box 4h gets your name (or trust, corp, llc), your city & state. The instructions on the Form and the word from the NFA handbook may lead you to believe one thing, but TRUST ME, if you don't engrave your lower, you do it at your own peril. The "original manufacturer" is the manufacturer of the TITLE I firearm. YOU (or your trust) are the manufacturer of the TITLE II firearm. Just please, trust me on this one, engraving is not that expensive, and it's some extremely cheap insurance against being hassled (and possibly having your SBR taken as contraband) for having an improperly marked NFA item. View Quote If you fill in box h with that, then yes, you would be obligated to engrave your receiver. My approved Form 1 does not have anything in Box h but 4a has the name of the original manufacturer of the receiver. Where did the idea of engraving come from originally, a "Gun Trust Lawyers" interpretation or direct from the BATFE? I read the NFA handbook and I am not a manufacturer by definition. If anyone looks at my SBR and my approved FORM 4, what is on the Form matches the Rifle for the manufacturer. |
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[#29]
Look, I'm not going to claim I am an expert on all things NFA, but everyone I know with a Form 1'd SBR has their lower engraved (and I know A LOT of those people).
I'm only trying to pass on what I know and have observed. Just because box h has nothing in it does not mean you don't have to engrave it. I once saw a guy whose approved Form 1 has ".556" written in the caliber box. There's no such thing as ".556" but BATFE approved the form. I serously think they just spot check the paperwork when it comes in, because I have seen some positively retarded and sometimes down right incorrectly filled out Form 1 apps that received approval. If you don't believe me, try calling the NFA Branch: (304) 616-4500 Even if you do call the NFA Branch, I would still call an SOT and your local ATF feild office before reaching a conclusion. Being out of compliance with the NFA (or the ever changing BATFE interpretation of it) is not something you want to mess around with. ETA: Checkout this thread; http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/257740_Complete_Guide_of_how_to_complete_a_Form_1.html |
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[#30]
Quoted: If you fill in box h with that, then yes, you would be obligated to engrave your receiver. My approved Form 1 does not have anything in Box h but 4a has the name of the original manufacturer of the receiver. Where did the idea of engraving come from originally, a "Gun Trust Lawyers" interpretation or direct from the BATFE? I read the NFA handbook and I am not a manufacturer by definition. If anyone looks at my SBR and my approved FORM 4, what is on the Form matches the Rifle for the manufacturer. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: After numerous phone calls to the NFA Branch, comparing notes with my local SOT, and bouncing around Arfcom, this is what my approved Form 1 looks like. http://i62.tinypic.com/dmd56b.jpg Box 4a gets the original manufacturer's name, their city & state. Box 4h gets your name (or trust, corp, llc), your city & state. The instructions on the Form and the word from the NFA handbook may lead you to believe one thing, but TRUST ME, if you don't engrave your lower, you do it at your own peril. The "original manufacturer" is the manufacturer of the TITLE I firearm. YOU (or your trust) are the manufacturer of the TITLE II firearm. Just please, trust me on this one, engraving is not that expensive, and it's some extremely cheap insurance against being hassled (and possibly having your SBR taken as contraband) for having an improperly marked NFA item. If you fill in box h with that, then yes, you would be obligated to engrave your receiver. My approved Form 1 does not have anything in Box h but 4a has the name of the original manufacturer of the receiver. Where did the idea of engraving come from originally, a "Gun Trust Lawyers" interpretation or direct from the BATFE? I read the NFA handbook and I am not a manufacturer by definition. If anyone looks at my SBR and my approved FORM 4, what is on the Form matches the Rifle for the manufacturer. |
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[#32]
Quoted:
Here is how I filled two of mine out and they were approved... http://s25.postimg.org/ozg1se98f/Form1_LT_SBR_SNIP_Athru_H.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
After numerous phone calls to the NFA Branch, comparing notes with my local SOT, and bouncing around Arfcom, this is what my approved Form 1 looks like. http://i62.tinypic.com/dmd56b.jpg Box 4a gets the original manufacturer's name, their city & state. Box 4h gets your name (or trust, corp, llc), your city & state. The instructions on the Form and the word from the NFA handbook may lead you to believe one thing, but TRUST ME, if you don't engrave your lower, you do it at your own peril. The "original manufacturer" is the manufacturer of the TITLE I firearm. YOU (or your trust) are the manufacturer of the TITLE II firearm. Just please, trust me on this one, engraving is not that expensive, and it's some extremely cheap insurance against being hassled (and possibly having your SBR taken as contraband) for having an improperly marked NFA item. If you fill in box h with that, then yes, you would be obligated to engrave your receiver. My approved Form 1 does not have anything in Box h but 4a has the name of the original manufacturer of the receiver. Where did the idea of engraving come from originally, a "Gun Trust Lawyers" interpretation or direct from the BATFE? I read the NFA handbook and I am not a manufacturer by definition. If anyone looks at my SBR and my approved FORM 4, what is on the Form matches the Rifle for the manufacturer. http://s25.postimg.org/ozg1se98f/Form1_LT_SBR_SNIP_Athru_H.jpg that's exactly how I filled my latest Form1 for an existing TOBR lower |
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