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I think Midas is going out of business... They have all closed in this town AFAIK.. I went into a certain wrecking yard a couple of weeks ago, I walked into it with a XD-40 under my shirt in an IWB holster, and an XD-40 subcompact in an ankle holster. Then I notice a sign saying "Firearms are not allowed on these premisis". I asked the gentleman at the desk about it, not mentioning I was carrying, and they said don't worry about it, if I have a permit, it's ok to bring it..... Still not too sure I will deal with them again.....
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It's also my understanding of the code is that the sign has to have the identical language as described in 30.06 in Texas at least. Is this not correct? He looks to have 2 out of 3 correct.
PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder: (1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and (2) received notice that: (A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or (B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart. (b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication. (c) In this section: (1) “Entry” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b). (2) “License holder” has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f). (3) “Written communication” means: (A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: “Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun”; or (B) a sign posted on the property that: (i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish; (ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and (iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public. (d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor. |
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That whole written or verbal communication thing...yeah, the part that says you have to be notified...wethet or not it is exactly 1" letters blah blah...
If there is a sign and you carry onto their property you don't stand a chance in court. |
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That whole written or verbal communication thing...yeah, the part that says you have to be notified...wethet or not it is exactly 1" letters blah blah... If there is a sign and you carry onto their property you don't stand a chance in court. View Quote Uhh did DPS tell you this word for word?? |
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Uhh did DPS tell you this word for word?? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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That whole written or verbal communication thing...yeah, the part that says you have to be notified...wethet or not it is exactly 1" letters blah blah... If there is a sign and you carry onto their property you don't stand a chance in court. Uhh did DPS tell you this word for word?? Yes. I believe what trooper Baumsh said was you can play semantics all you want with wording and letter size. The fact is if someone doesn't want you on their property with a firearm it is their right to do so. It's on you if they decide to prosecute... the court will decide. And that is not anything I would want to test. A responsible permit holder won't go looking for that fight. |
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The blah blah blah part is defined with great specificity, so in the eyes of the law, if the sign doesn't meet that specificity as per the code, then no, you have not been notified with "written notification" as it is explicitly defined.
If the owner or someone acting in that capacity verbally tells you to be removed from the premiss, then that counts, as there is no specified phrase as defined by law. They could say "you, no gun, leave" would suffice as meeting the requirements of as it reads. |
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That whole written or verbal communication thing...yeah, the part that says you have to be notified...wethet or not it is exactly 1" letters blah blah... If there is a sign and you carry onto their property you don't stand a chance in court. View Quote Sign on door doesn't count as written, if a sign is posted it must be the correctly worded 30.06 sign or it is not valid. AFAIK Written would be a document of some type stating you can't carry that you then sign |
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Sign on door doesn't count as written, if a sign is posted it must be the correctly worded 30.06 sign or it is not valid. AFAIK Written would be a document of some type stating you can't carry that you then sign View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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That whole written or verbal communication thing...yeah, the part that says you have to be notified...wethet or not it is exactly 1" letters blah blah... If there is a sign and you carry onto their property you don't stand a chance in court. Sign on door doesn't count as written, if a sign is posted it must be the correctly worded 30.06 sign or it is not valid. AFAIK Written would be a document of some type stating you can't carry that you then sign i would listen to 64...he is a certified CCW instructor in your state |
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Quoted: Any sign is a legit sign. Who was your chl instructor again? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Well at least it's not a legit sign, carry away. Any sign is a legit sign. Who was your chl instructor again? Now If am officer of the law, hypothetically speaking, I ask to see your CHL on this same property, possibly because I saw an imprint that the average person would not know was not a cell phone, etc, which is acceptable imprinting, do I have the legal right to arrest you for illegally carrying a handgun? The owner of the property is not involved in this scenario. My understanding is No Lastly I use my handgun in a legitimate self defense situation on property with a "no guns" sign that does not conform to 30-06 what are the legal pitfalls of this scenario? |
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The blah blah blah part is defined with great specificity, so in the eyes of the law, if the sign doesn't meet that specificity as per the code, then no, you have not been notified with "written notification" as it is explicitly defined. If the owner or someone acting in that capacity verbally tells you to be removed from the premiss, then that counts, as there is no specified phrase as defined by law. They could say "you, no gun, leave" would suffice as meeting the requirements of as it reads. View Quote Sorry, I was out and about and I wasn't about to post this from my phone. Covered under section 30.05 is Criminal Trespass...read below, the bolded areas. The part toward the end that says "it is a defense to prosecution" is what the Troopers are referring to. A defense is not an exemption...as outlined in the last paragraph (Law Enforcement). As I said earlier, ANY sign is a notification so long as it is clearly visible. While it may not apply to CHL holders, if the owner wanted to prosecute you will have to deal with it in court. You may state PC 30.05 as a defense, but it is not ironclad, it will be up to the judge. Hope you don't live in a libtard county. As a responsible CHL holder, it is up to you to decide what you are going to do. FWIW, I will not risk a court battle over semantics (signage). I don't have that kind of money. Do you? Think before you act...after all, you don't have to go to places like Midas. Looking for a fight (in court or otherwise) will never help win the hearts and minds of the non-CHL holding public. And yes, I am a TX CHL instructor. PC §30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person: (1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or (2) received notice to depart but failed to do so. (b) For purposes of this section: (1) “Entry” means the intrusion of the entire body. (2) “Notice” means: (A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner; (B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock; (C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden; (D) the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are: (i) vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width; (ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground; and (iii) placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than: (I) 100 feet apart on forest land; or (II) 1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land; or (E) the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry. (3) “Shelter center” has the meaning assigned by Section 51.002, Human Resources Code. (4) “Forest land” means land on which the trees are potentially valuable for timber products. (5) “Agricultural land” has the meaning assigned by Section 75.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code. (6) “Superfund site” means a facility that: (A) is on the National Priorities List established under Section 105 of the federal Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980 (42 U.S.C. Section 9605); or (B) is listed on the state registry established under Section 361.181, Health and Safety Code. (7) “Critical infrastructure facility” means one of the following, if completely enclosed by a fence or other physical barrier that is obviously designed to exclude intruders: (A) a chemical manufacturing facility; (B) a refinery; (C) an electrical power generating facility, substation, switching station, electrical control center, or electrical transmission or distribution facility; (D) a water intake structure, water treatment facility, waste - water treatment plant, or pump station; (E) a natural gas transmission compressor station; (F) a liquid natural gas terminal or storage facility; (G) a telecommunications central switching office; (H) a port, railroad switching yard, trucking terminal, or other freight transportation facility; (I) a gas processing plant, including a plant used in the processing, treatment, or fractionation of natural gas; or (J) a transmission facility used by a federally licensed radio or television station. (8) “Protected freshwater area” has the meaning assigned by Section 90.001, Parks and Wildlife Code. (9) “Recognized state” means another state with which the attorney general of this state, with the approval of the governor of this state, negotiated an agreement after determining that the other state: (A) has firearm proficiency requirements for peace officers; and (B) fully recognizes the right of peace officers commissioned in this state to carry weapons in the other state. (10) “Recreational vehicle park” means a tract of land that has rental spaces for two or more recreational vehicles, as defined by Section 522.004, Transportation Code. (11) “Residential land” means real property improved by a dwelling and zoned for or otherwise authorized for single - family or multifamily use. (c) *[as repealed by Acts Effective September 1,2009, 81st Leg., R.S., HB 2609 §4.] (d) An offense under this section is: (1) a Class B misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivisions (2) and (3); (2) a Class C misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivision (3), if the offense is committed: (A) on agricultural land and within 100 feet of the boundary of the land; or (B) on residential land and within 100 feet of a protected fresh - water area; and (3) a Class A misdemeanor if: (A) the offense is committed: (i) in a habitation or a shelter center; (ii) on a Superfund site; or (iii) on or in a critical infrastructure facility; or (B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense. (e) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor at the time of the offense was: (1) a firefighter or emergency medical services personnel, as defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty under exigent circumstances; (2) a person who was: (A) an employee or agent of: (i) an electric utility, as defined by Section 31.002, Utilities Code; (ii) a telecommunications provider, as defined by Section 51.002, Utilities Code; (iii) a video service provider or cable service provider, as defined by Section 66.002, Utilities Code; (iv) a gas utility, as defined by Section 101.003 or 121.001, Utilities Code; or (v) a pipeline used for the transportation or sale of oil, gas, or related products; and (B) performing a duty within the scope of that employment or agency; or (3) a person who was: (A) employed by or acting as agent for an entity that had, or that the person reasonably believed had, effective consent or authorization provided by law to enter the property; and (B) performing a duty within the scope of that employment or agency. (f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that: (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and (2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying. (g) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor entered a railroad switching yard or any part of a railroad switching yard and was at that time an employee or a representative of employees exercising a right under the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. Section 151 et seq.). (h) At the punishment stage of a trial in which the attorney representing the state seeks the increase in punishment provided by Subsection (d)(1)(C), the defendant may raise the issue as to whether the defendant entered or remained on or in a critical infrastructure facility as part of a peaceful or lawful assembly, including an at tempt to exercise rights guaranteed by state or federal labor laws. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative by a preponderance of the evidence, the increase in punishment provided by Subsection (d)(1)(C) does not apply. (i) This section does not apply if: (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun or other weapon was forbidden; and (2) the actor at the time of the offense was a peace officer, including a commissioned peace officer of a recognized state, or a special investigator under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator was engaged in the actual discharge of an official duty while carrying the weapon. |
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Seems like TX has a lot of rules for carrying concealed....
Not that it matters here, but in Wyoming all you have to be is a resident of the state to carry concealed...no permit required. That being said, my Wyoming Concealed Firearms Permit list 10 types of places you cannot carry. (Federal buildings, schools, bars..etc) Every business has the right to refuse service to anyone (for the most part). If the business owner asks you to remove your weapon or leave, you must do that or face criminal trespassing laws. This includes signage. No responsible person who carries for the right reasons would go looking for that fight. If you don't want me to carry in your business..you don't want my money and I will happily go somewhere else. I carry everyday (when I am offpost - military installations are victim rich environments for some reason) and I make sure that I maintain my "law-abiding citizen" status by knowing the laws of the states I live in and travel through. (interesting tidbit, the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo has signs that state "NO OPEN CARRY") |
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So Ah64, I assume you are not a lawyer but as an instructor you must know precedents that have been set or previous cases where a CHL holder used deadly force on property where a non 30.06 compliant sign said "no guns". What was the outcome, directly related to that aspect of the shooting? Were illegal handgun possession charges pressed? This is really what it boils down to. I am interested to know what has happened with this obviously Gray area before? If any hodgepodge sign says no guns what is the purpose of 30.06? Understand I am not being condescending here, I honestly want to know the right/wrong of this situation. No instructor I have taken a course with has taken your stance or had any respect for a sign not 30.06 compliant. Obviously I am not the only one in this boat when more than a handful of the posts above are on the same page as myself by reading their comments. So if we are all wrong, carrying handguns legally in a fashion we all believe to be perfectly legal then there is a problem with the Texas licensing program. Specifically with instructor training.
I can and did read the criminal trespass post. I feel like I understand criminal trespass. In my questions above my point was not an issue with criminal trespass. It was if I carry a HIDDEN, CONCEALED weapon on property of a hodgepodge sign displaying anti gunner, can I be arrested for carrying that weapon based on my legal right to have it on his property, without the owner/agents knowledge? Example: you cannot carry in a courthouse, if a police officer searches me and finds the handgun I will be arrested. If a police officer searches me on a property legally displaying a 30.06 sign I will be arrested for carrying. Now If a police officer searches me on a property with a non compliant 30.06 sign can he arrest me if the property owner is not involved? Is it automatic grounds for arrest to be carrying on property displaying a hodgepodge "no guns" sign?
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Midas...trust the Midas touch...or don't cuz they're gonna stick it in when you're not looking. So I'm sitting here waiting on Lisa's car to get an oil change. I normally do it myself but because I have a $19.99 coupon and they do a tire rotation it was cheaper to have them do it. Ok. No big deal. Their "SpeeDee Oil Change" has taken 30 min. so far because they inspect the ever living shit out of it to try and sell you on a blinker fluid change and window filter replacement. Still, not too worried about it. Getting a little peeved but nothing I can't deal with. Then I walk out front, you know, the door I didn't come in when I drove the car into the garage area. You mother fucking liberal assclowns! I will never be back to Midas, ANY Midas. Fuck you and your anti 2A bullshit with a gas station toilet scrubber you fucking pussy ass bitches. You just finished my car and are walking in here to sell me on a bunch of shit, FUCK YOU! Go back and rotate my tires you fucking cunt, you didn't do that part of the deal, it's on the coupon... on YOUR mother fucking coupon! And when you're done change your tampon and grow a pair of nuts you fucking pussy, "wah wah, oh noes a wittle gun...I need my sign to protect me..." FUCK YOU AND THE WOMAN WHO BORE YOU! PUSSIES! <a href="http://s60.photobucket.com/user/ah64pilot/media/Forums/LotD/20140422_085641.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/ah64pilot/Forums/LotD/20140422_085641.jpg</a> Total time 1hr. View Quote Well, based on your location you are free to ignore that sign, as it's not a legal 30.06 and concealed is concealed. |
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No instructor I have taken a course with has taken your stance or had any respect for a sign not 30.06 compliant. Obviously I am not the only one in this boat when more than a handful of the posts above are on the same page as myself by reading their comments. So if we are all wrong, carrying handguns legally in a fashion we all believe to be perfectly legal then there is a problem with the Texas licensing program. Specifically with instructor training. View Quote I've sat through 3 CHL classes with 3 different instructors. All of them at some point or another in the class mentioned that 30.06 is the ONLY sign that applies to TX CHL holders. So this is news to me and I guess my 3 instructors didn't know what they were talking about |
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And BTW.....you need some anger management classes. It's a stupid sign at an auto shop. If this gets your blood boiling so much, wishing someone to F themselves and F their mother, I'd hate to see you really get mad. Just move on and find another shop. If you really want to make a difference, send the corporate office a complaint asking them why their sign is posted and if they would consider removing. Coming on a public forum and telling everyone at Midas to F themselves and calling them a P accomplishes nothing and is quite childish. This is the kind rant that gets people fired from their jobs or lose important qualifications.....like say a CHL Instructor license.
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Quoted: I've sat through 3 CHL classes with 3 different instructors. All of them at some point or another in the class mentioned that 30.06 is the ONLY sign that applies to TX CHL holders. So this is news to me and I guess my 3 instructors didn't know what they were talking about View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: No instructor I have taken a course with has taken your stance or had any respect for a sign not 30.06 compliant. Obviously I am not the only one in this boat when more than a handful of the posts above are on the same page as myself by reading their comments. So if we are all wrong, carrying handguns legally in a fashion we all believe to be perfectly legal then there is a problem with the Texas licensing program. Specifically with instructor training. I've sat through 3 CHL classes with 3 different instructors. All of them at some point or another in the class mentioned that 30.06 is the ONLY sign that applies to TX CHL holders. So this is news to me and I guess my 3 instructors didn't know what they were talking about |
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Yes. I believe what trooper Baumsh said was you can play semantics all you want with wording and letter size. The fact is if someone doesn't want you on their property with a firearm it is their right to do so. It's on you if they decide to prosecute... the court will decide. And that is not anything I would want to test. A responsible permit holder won't go looking for that fight. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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That whole written or verbal communication thing...yeah, the part that says you have to be notified...wethet or not it is exactly 1" letters blah blah... If there is a sign and you carry onto their property you don't stand a chance in court. Uhh did DPS tell you this word for word?? Yes. I believe what trooper Baumsh said was you can play semantics all you want with wording and letter size. The fact is if someone doesn't want you on their property with a firearm it is their right to do so. It's on you if they decide to prosecute... the court will decide. And that is not anything I would want to test. A responsible permit holder won't go looking for that fight. Well Texas court rulings do not back up what Trooper Baumsh is saying. But pretty much par for the course for DPS. |
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And BTW.....you need some anger management classes. It's a stupid sign at an auto shop. If this gets your blood boiling so much, wishing someone to F themselves and F their mother, I'd hate to see you really get mad. Just move on and find another shop. If you really want to make a difference, send the corporate office a complaint asking them why their sign is posted and if they would consider removing. Coming on a public forum and telling everyone at Midas to F themselves and calling them a P accomplishes nothing and is quite childish. This is the kind rant that gets people fired from their jobs or lose important qualifications.....like say a CHL Instructor license. View Quote I was thinking the same thing. |
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I think some people are taking this rant way too seriously. Its a rant...not a blood boiling tirade of destruction. Have a beer and relax.
And you guys are missing the point, FWIW I would err on the side of caution... if you wanna press the issue go right ahead, but I will never advise that you do so. |
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Quoted: I think some people are taking this rant way too seriously. Its a rant...not a blood boiling tirade of destruction. Have a beer and relax. And you guys are missing the point, FWIW I would err on the side of caution... if you wanna press the issue go right ahead, but I will never advise that you do so. View Quote |
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Sorry, I was out and about and I wasn't about to post this from my phone. Covered under section 30.05 is Criminal Trespass...read below, the bolded areas. The part toward the end that says "it is a defense to prosecution" is what the Troopers are referring to. A defense is not an exemption...as outlined in the last paragraph (Law Enforcement). As I said earlier, ANY sign is a notification so long as it is clearly visible. While it may not apply to CHL holders, if the owner wanted to prosecute you will have to deal with it in court. You may state PC 30.05 as a defense, but it is not ironclad, it will be up to the judge. Hope you don't live in a libtard county. As a responsible CHL holder, it is up to you to decide what you are going to do. FWIW, I will not risk a court battle over semantics (signage). I don't have that kind of money. Do you? Think before you act...after all, you don't have to go to places like Midas. Looking for a fight (in court or otherwise) will never help win the hearts and minds of the non-CHL holding public. And yes, I am a TX CHL instructor. PC §30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person: (1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or (2) received notice to depart but failed to do so. (b) For purposes of this section: (1) “Entry” means the intrusion of the entire body. (2) “Notice” means: (A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner; (B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock; (C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden; (D) the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are: (i) vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width; (ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground; and (iii) placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than: (I) 100 feet apart on forest land; or (II) 1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land; or (E) the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry. (3) “Shelter center” has the meaning assigned by Section 51.002, Human Resources Code. (4) “Forest land” means land on which the trees are potentially valuable for timber products. (5) “Agricultural land” has the meaning assigned by Section 75.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code. (6) “Superfund site” means a facility that: (A) is on the National Priorities List established under Section 105 of the federal Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980 (42 U.S.C. Section 9605); or (B) is listed on the state registry established under Section 361.181, Health and Safety Code. (7) “Critical infrastructure facility” means one of the following, if completely enclosed by a fence or other physical barrier that is obviously designed to exclude intruders: (A) a chemical manufacturing facility; (B) a refinery; (C) an electrical power generating facility, substation, switching station, electrical control center, or electrical transmission or distribution facility; (D) a water intake structure, water treatment facility, waste - water treatment plant, or pump station; (E) a natural gas transmission compressor station; (F) a liquid natural gas terminal or storage facility; (G) a telecommunications central switching office; (H) a port, railroad switching yard, trucking terminal, or other freight transportation facility; (I) a gas processing plant, including a plant used in the processing, treatment, or fractionation of natural gas; or (J) a transmission facility used by a federally licensed radio or television station. (8) “Protected freshwater area” has the meaning assigned by Section 90.001, Parks and Wildlife Code. (9) “Recognized state” means another state with which the attorney general of this state, with the approval of the governor of this state, negotiated an agreement after determining that the other state: (A) has firearm proficiency requirements for peace officers; and (B) fully recognizes the right of peace officers commissioned in this state to carry weapons in the other state. (10) “Recreational vehicle park” means a tract of land that has rental spaces for two or more recreational vehicles, as defined by Section 522.004, Transportation Code. (11) “Residential land” means real property improved by a dwelling and zoned for or otherwise authorized for single - family or multifamily use. (c) *[as repealed by Acts Effective September 1,2009, 81st Leg., R.S., HB 2609 §4.] (d) An offense under this section is: (1) a Class B misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivisions (2) and (3); (2) a Class C misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivision (3), if the offense is committed: (A) on agricultural land and within 100 feet of the boundary of the land; or (B) on residential land and within 100 feet of a protected fresh - water area; and (3) a Class A misdemeanor if: (A) the offense is committed: (i) in a habitation or a shelter center; (ii) on a Superfund site; or (iii) on or in a critical infrastructure facility; or (B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense. (e) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor at the time of the offense was: (1) a firefighter or emergency medical services personnel, as defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty under exigent circumstances; (2) a person who was: (A) an employee or agent of: (i) an electric utility, as defined by Section 31.002, Utilities Code; (ii) a telecommunications provider, as defined by Section 51.002, Utilities Code; (iii) a video service provider or cable service provider, as defined by Section 66.002, Utilities Code; (iv) a gas utility, as defined by Section 101.003 or 121.001, Utilities Code; or (v) a pipeline used for the transportation or sale of oil, gas, or related products; and (B) performing a duty within the scope of that employment or agency; or (3) a person who was: (A) employed by or acting as agent for an entity that had, or that the person reasonably believed had, effective consent or authorization provided by law to enter the property; and (B) performing a duty within the scope of that employment or agency. (f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that: (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and (2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying. (g) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor entered a railroad switching yard or any part of a railroad switching yard and was at that time an employee or a representative of employees exercising a right under the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. Section 151 et seq.). (h) At the punishment stage of a trial in which the attorney representing the state seeks the increase in punishment provided by Subsection (d)(1)(C), the defendant may raise the issue as to whether the defendant entered or remained on or in a critical infrastructure facility as part of a peaceful or lawful assembly, including an at tempt to exercise rights guaranteed by state or federal labor laws. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative by a preponderance of the evidence, the increase in punishment provided by Subsection (d)(1)(C) does not apply. (i) This section does not apply if: (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun or other weapon was forbidden; and (2) the actor at the time of the offense was a peace officer, including a commissioned peace officer of a recognized state, or a special investigator under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator was engaged in the actual discharge of an official duty while carrying the weapon. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The blah blah blah part is defined with great specificity, so in the eyes of the law, if the sign doesn't meet that specificity as per the code, then no, you have not been notified with "written notification" as it is explicitly defined. If the owner or someone acting in that capacity verbally tells you to be removed from the premiss, then that counts, as there is no specified phrase as defined by law. They could say "you, no gun, leave" would suffice as meeting the requirements of as it reads. Sorry, I was out and about and I wasn't about to post this from my phone. Covered under section 30.05 is Criminal Trespass...read below, the bolded areas. The part toward the end that says "it is a defense to prosecution" is what the Troopers are referring to. A defense is not an exemption...as outlined in the last paragraph (Law Enforcement). As I said earlier, ANY sign is a notification so long as it is clearly visible. While it may not apply to CHL holders, if the owner wanted to prosecute you will have to deal with it in court. You may state PC 30.05 as a defense, but it is not ironclad, it will be up to the judge. Hope you don't live in a libtard county. As a responsible CHL holder, it is up to you to decide what you are going to do. FWIW, I will not risk a court battle over semantics (signage). I don't have that kind of money. Do you? Think before you act...after all, you don't have to go to places like Midas. Looking for a fight (in court or otherwise) will never help win the hearts and minds of the non-CHL holding public. And yes, I am a TX CHL instructor. PC §30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person: (1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or (2) received notice to depart but failed to do so. (b) For purposes of this section: (1) “Entry” means the intrusion of the entire body. (2) “Notice” means: (A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner; (B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock; (C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden; (D) the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are: (i) vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width; (ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground; and (iii) placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than: (I) 100 feet apart on forest land; or (II) 1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land; or (E) the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry. (3) “Shelter center” has the meaning assigned by Section 51.002, Human Resources Code. (4) “Forest land” means land on which the trees are potentially valuable for timber products. (5) “Agricultural land” has the meaning assigned by Section 75.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code. (6) “Superfund site” means a facility that: (A) is on the National Priorities List established under Section 105 of the federal Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980 (42 U.S.C. Section 9605); or (B) is listed on the state registry established under Section 361.181, Health and Safety Code. (7) “Critical infrastructure facility” means one of the following, if completely enclosed by a fence or other physical barrier that is obviously designed to exclude intruders: (A) a chemical manufacturing facility; (B) a refinery; (C) an electrical power generating facility, substation, switching station, electrical control center, or electrical transmission or distribution facility; (D) a water intake structure, water treatment facility, waste - water treatment plant, or pump station; (E) a natural gas transmission compressor station; (F) a liquid natural gas terminal or storage facility; (G) a telecommunications central switching office; (H) a port, railroad switching yard, trucking terminal, or other freight transportation facility; (I) a gas processing plant, including a plant used in the processing, treatment, or fractionation of natural gas; or (J) a transmission facility used by a federally licensed radio or television station. (8) “Protected freshwater area” has the meaning assigned by Section 90.001, Parks and Wildlife Code. (9) “Recognized state” means another state with which the attorney general of this state, with the approval of the governor of this state, negotiated an agreement after determining that the other state: (A) has firearm proficiency requirements for peace officers; and (B) fully recognizes the right of peace officers commissioned in this state to carry weapons in the other state. (10) “Recreational vehicle park” means a tract of land that has rental spaces for two or more recreational vehicles, as defined by Section 522.004, Transportation Code. (11) “Residential land” means real property improved by a dwelling and zoned for or otherwise authorized for single - family or multifamily use. (c) *[as repealed by Acts Effective September 1,2009, 81st Leg., R.S., HB 2609 §4.] (d) An offense under this section is: (1) a Class B misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivisions (2) and (3); (2) a Class C misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivision (3), if the offense is committed: (A) on agricultural land and within 100 feet of the boundary of the land; or (B) on residential land and within 100 feet of a protected fresh - water area; and (3) a Class A misdemeanor if: (A) the offense is committed: (i) in a habitation or a shelter center; (ii) on a Superfund site; or (iii) on or in a critical infrastructure facility; or (B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense. (e) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor at the time of the offense was: (1) a firefighter or emergency medical services personnel, as defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty under exigent circumstances; (2) a person who was: (A) an employee or agent of: (i) an electric utility, as defined by Section 31.002, Utilities Code; (ii) a telecommunications provider, as defined by Section 51.002, Utilities Code; (iii) a video service provider or cable service provider, as defined by Section 66.002, Utilities Code; (iv) a gas utility, as defined by Section 101.003 or 121.001, Utilities Code; or (v) a pipeline used for the transportation or sale of oil, gas, or related products; and (B) performing a duty within the scope of that employment or agency; or (3) a person who was: (A) employed by or acting as agent for an entity that had, or that the person reasonably believed had, effective consent or authorization provided by law to enter the property; and (B) performing a duty within the scope of that employment or agency. (f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that: (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and (2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying. (g) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor entered a railroad switching yard or any part of a railroad switching yard and was at that time an employee or a representative of employees exercising a right under the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. Section 151 et seq.). (h) At the punishment stage of a trial in which the attorney representing the state seeks the increase in punishment provided by Subsection (d)(1)(C), the defendant may raise the issue as to whether the defendant entered or remained on or in a critical infrastructure facility as part of a peaceful or lawful assembly, including an at tempt to exercise rights guaranteed by state or federal labor laws. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative by a preponderance of the evidence, the increase in punishment provided by Subsection (d)(1)(C) does not apply. (i) This section does not apply if: (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun or other weapon was forbidden; and (2) the actor at the time of the offense was a peace officer, including a commissioned peace officer of a recognized state, or a special investigator under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator was engaged in the actual discharge of an official duty while carrying the weapon. You may be an instructor, but you're clearly not a lawyer. § 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder: (1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and (2) received notice that: (A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or (B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart. (b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication. (c) In this section: (1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b). (2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f). (3) "Written communication" means: (A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or (B) a sign posted on the property that: (i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish; (ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and (iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public. (d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor. (e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035. Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1261, § 23, eff. Sept. 1, 1997. Amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, § 9.24, eff. Sept. 1, 1999; Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1178, § 2, eff. Sept. 1, 2003. 30.06 Wiki "The courts have yet to rule on any specific requirements of 30.06, but CHL permittees are generally instructed that signage which does not comply exactly with TPC Sec. 30.06(c)(3)(B) is not binding." |
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The courts have yet to pass a ruling...
Which is why I would err on the side of caution. As an instructor I will NOT assume any liability for telling you to carry where any sign, 30.06 compliant or not, is posted because legal precedent in the courts has not been set. You guys have fun with this one, I think this horse has been beaten enough. |
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Quoted: The courts have yet to pass a ruling... Which is why I would err on the side of caution. As an instructor I will NOT assume any liability for telling you to carry where any sign, 30.06 compliant or not, is posted because legal precedent in the courts has not been set. You guys have fun with this one, I think this horse has been beaten enough. View Quote |
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Sign is binding under 30.05 for non-CHL handgun carry and all other firearms. In other words, OC of AR-15, can get you hosed.
CHL handgun carry is GTG, though like OP I would knowingly never set foot on place that posts that nonsense. |
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The courts have yet to pass a ruling... Which is why I would err on the side of caution. As an instructor I will NOT assume any liability for telling you to carry where any sign, 30.06 compliant or not, is posted because legal precedent in the courts has not been set. You guys have fun with this one, I think this horse has been beaten enough. View Quote The courts don't have to rule on something to make it legit. You only have to know how to read. If you don't understand how to read and interpret what is possibly the most important point regarding where you can legally carry, you probably shouldn't be an instructor. At the very least, you should be informing your students that you are the single instructor in the state of Texas that doesn't take the time to understand what is written in the law that you are about to be teaching them., or at least the only one that doesn't teach that a sign has to be very specific to be binding. |
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You guys are doing a great job of copying and pasting ch30.06. But some of you are not comprehending it.
The sign shown is NOT effective notice. It has to be the verbage described in 30.06 posted at all entrances. They could give effective notice if they verbally told you not to carry inside or handed you a note stating that you cannot carry as a CHL inside. The sign is not correct. It's not posted at all entrances. Keep your gun concealed . If you are too timid or uncomfortable carrying in a place that has a sign like that, then leave your gun at home or give up your license. THis isn't that big of a deal. ..and old omd is a plankowner in the Texas CHL program. I was in the very first instructor class in July of 1995. Ch 30.06 and the sign language and posting has been fixed since '97 and '99. THat's been over 15 years. THis should not be a big deal but it has come to my attention this week that a number of my fellow instructors clearly don't have a f#@%^&g clue what they are doing. My partner went to his renewal class this past monday and an instructor had trained students after his instructor certificate expired on Dec 31st. He thought that since his own CHL was good he could just keep on training even when his instructor creds expired. The students will have to retake their CHL course. Bet their glad its not 10 hours anymore. Also , you might check out texaschlforum.com operated by attorney , CHL instructor and NRA director Charles Cotton of Pearland. More than you will ever want to know. |
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Ok I think this is where my confusion is... in our class they did say that any sign notifying that handguns were prohibited can hold water...for a business that derives 51% or more of their income from the sale and consumption of alcohol. They said this because under section 43.035 it states the bolded part below (b1). "It is a defense to prosecution...". Because it is not a "does not apply" they were saying that even though the sign does not conform to 411.204 you can still take a ride for going past a "gunbuster" sign at a 51% establishment.
I mistook that to be any establishment. Thanks for the debate, it got me back into my notes and helped me clarify this portion of the law. And dude several posts above, your words mean more when you're not a dick about things. Presumably we're all here to learn something, not flame each other. (i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06. (j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission. (k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code. And thanks for the link omd... |
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Well I'm glad to hear my 3 instructors weren't out of their minds. I always figured it was pretty cut and dry until I found this ridiculous thread that had some of us questioning ourselves and multitude of CHL instructors.
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I think some people are taking this rant way too seriously. Its a rant...not a blood boiling tirade of destruction. Have a beer and relax. And you guys are missing the point, FWIW I would err on the side of caution... if you wanna press the issue go right ahead, but I will never advise that you do so. View Quote I dont think you can use language the way you did and then come on later and say "you guys are taking this rant too seriously....have a beer and relax" and expect people to understand that it was a joke or harmless rant. I think I'd still edit your original post. I mean come on man....you told someone to F off and F the mother that bore them. That's pretty classless and just fuel for the antigunners. We've all seen how rants like this can come back to bite you. Think about how many athletes have run into this. Its amazingly simple to "google" people these days. You have your picture in your profile If I'm interviewing you and somehow tie this post to you.....you can be 100% sure you won't be hired. Heck, I'm not sure I'd even want to meet up with your for an EE. |
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Back on topic you apes....
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So I'm sitting here waiting on Lisa's car to get an oil change........ View Quote Turn in your man card rotor head. |
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