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tvfreakarms
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Posted: 6/6/2010 1:17:42 AM
I'm sure people have asked this question plenty of time but I need to be reassured. I need to restock on ammo but the price of brass is way to expensive. I'm thinking of getting wolf ammo. But some people would rather drown to death or be burned alive rather than use a steel cased ammo. I've read that people won't use steel case because it scratches the inside area of the ejection port area or the coatings on the ammo can leave residue which can lead to problems. If that's the case and your
the type that don't clean your rifle every time you shot ( i have a POF and i will admit i don't clean it every time i shot) that could cause problems i assume.

Has anyone that used steel case ammo have any issues? What are other reason for people that won't use steel case ammo?

Thanks.
badness
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Posted: 6/6/2010 6:36:58 AM
I never had issues yet. But at one point Wolf was all I could get my hands on. I haven't shot wolf through my .223 yet, but I did get some scratches around my ejection port and brass deflector on my P-308. And it does leave some reddish residue inside the bolt. I'm just guessing, but it looks like the primer sealant. I have shot Federal XM193 through my P-415 and i found that the inside the bolt it had similar residue. Different color though. So what i found was wolf is ok for blasting ammo, but it groups extremly bad. Like 3 MOA bad. Bottom line is I would much rather have brass ammo like Hornady, Federal, or Black Hills. But I haven't had problems with Wolf other than accuracy, a few scratches, and a dirty gun. But I do clean my gun almost everytime I shoot it. I hope this helps.
tvfreakarms
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Posted: 6/6/2010 10:32:47 PM
Thanks.
775Patriot
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Posted: 6/7/2010 1:10:04 AM
[Last Edit: 6/7/2010 1:14:59 AM by 775Patriot]
The steel casings also swell after discharge and are known for breaking an extractor or two because the casing gets stuck. It's not good for the barrel either.

ETA: All my experiences are with the .223/5.56 round not with .308
"I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders" Ted Nugent
Manny2_0
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Posted: 6/7/2010 2:05:53 AM
There's LC on the EE going for like 50cents

buy it all up, isn't that what wolf costs anyways
0612Devil
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Posted: 6/7/2010 2:12:48 AM
Originally Posted By 775Patriot:
The steel casings also swell after discharge and are known for breaking an extractor or two because the casing gets stuck. It's not good for the barrel either.

ETA: All my experiences are with the .223/5.56 round not with .308


You Sir have no idea what you are talking about. Are you saying Brass doesn't expand when fired? I currently have between 9k and 10k rounds of wolf/brown bear through one of my uppers. Still on the original extractor and have only had 1 stuck case in that time. Also explain to me why you think steel cased ammunition is "bad on barrels"...

Pack a pillow and blanket. Go. See the world. You will never regret it...
775Patriot
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Posted: 6/7/2010 8:48:48 PM
[Last Edit: 6/10/2010 2:10:52 AM by 775Patriot]
Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
Originally Posted By 775Patriot:
The steel casings also swell after discharge and are known for breaking an extractor or two because the casing gets stuck. It's not good for the barrel either.

ETA: All my experiences are with the .223/5.56 round not with .308


You Sir have no idea what you are talking about. Are you saying Brass doesn't expand when fired? I currently have between 9k and 10k rounds of wolf/brown bear through one of my uppers. Still on the original extractor and have only had 1 stuck case in that time. Also explain to me why you think steel cased ammunition is "bad on barrels"...



No. Brass is just softer. I didn't say it doesn't shoot, I have had cases that I had no problem with and I have had cases that all 1000 rounds sucked ass and every round stuck after firing. In one rifle I broke the extractor trying to pull the bolt back. My experience.... take it for what it's worth. For you to say I have no idea what I'm talking about is a little harsh don't you think? Your entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine, don't turn this into something it doesn't need to be. Your going to get people that swear by steel cased and your going to get people that won't touch it. I had a bad experience with it and got rid of the rest, you obviously haven't.....congrats. As for the "bad on the barrels" after I had four rifles go down in one range trip from the steel case getting stuck and one extractor breaking I asked a local gunsmith WTF and he said, it also wasn't a good idea to be shooting wolf through an ar15 as it was very bad for the barrel. So for you I will get back to you on that as I am going to see him this weekend and I will ask and I will let you know. For the future, I am willing to explain anything I ever post, all you have to do is ask.............But, don't be a dick about it.

Edit for spelling...

Edit for Update: 0612Devil I talked to the gunsmith today and he said he was referring to non-chrome lined barrels and that wolf ammo is real hard on them. (One of the rifles I had had a non-chrome lined barrel. Obviously, not a POF.)
"I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders" Ted Nugent
14Kfgk14
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Posted: 6/8/2010 8:05:41 PM
Herters (that new stuff Cabelas is selling in bulk) has treated my P308 fine, though usually I use SA Surplus ammo from battlepacks. The Herters (aside from some residue) is pretty good ammo. Groups are okay (1.5-2 MOA, as good as I'll shoot most days, regardless of the load).
Wolf is the same deal. If you are just looking to put rounds down range and don't need precision, steel cases will treat you fine.
YMMV
POF-USA
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Posted: 7/31/2010 5:20:53 PM
Originally Posted By tvfreakarms:
I'm sure people have asked this question plenty of time but I need to be reassured. I need to restock on ammo but the price of brass is way to expensive. I'm thinking of getting wolf ammo. But some people would rather drown to death or be burned alive rather than use a steel cased ammo. I've read that people won't use steel case because it scratches the inside area of the ejection port area or the coatings on the ammo can leave residue which can lead to problems. If that's the case and your
the type that don't clean your rifle every time you shot ( i have a POF and i will admit i don't clean it every time i shot) that could cause problems i assume.

Has anyone that used steel case ammo have any issues? What are other reason for people that won't use steel case ammo?

Thanks.



There is no issue using steel cased ammo in our Chambers.
All of our barrels are Case Harden Nitrate Heat Treated to 68-70 RC.
The steel case is softer then our chambers. This is another big benefit
using our regulated short stroke gas piston weapon systems. You can shoot the
cheap ammo.

Concerns to be aware of when using steel cased ammo like wolf:
You may have light primer strikes on some cartridges due to harder primers.
Sometimes the primer pockets are deeper then spec which will also cause lite primer strikes.
Some old steel cased ammo are coated with lacquer which will cause cartridge at times to stick in chamber.
The new steel cased ammo have polymer coating which work much better but would suggest that
all shooters make sure to clean the chamber in the neck/throat area when cleaning your barrel.

Side Note:
All should look at the new Hornady training ammo which is steel case.
The prototype ammo for the .308 is very accurate. This is do to Hornady,
loading the cartridge, using their powder, and their bullets. Hornady will make believers
that steel case ammo can shoot accurate. Their is a benefit having a harden barrel / chamber.
Best regards,

Frank L. DeSomma
Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc.
www.POF-USA.com
Sales@POF-USA.com
623-561-9572 WK.
623-321-1680 Fax

Frank L. DeSomma
President
Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc.
www.POF-USA.com
623-561-9572 wk.
623-321-1680 Fax
[img]http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif[/img]
jimmy-buffett
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Posted: 8/3/2010 6:28:03 PM
This reminds me of the guys who buy luxury sports sedans and then don't run them on premium gas. Yeah you can do it, but when the knock sensor retards your timing and you lose 40-50 HP, is it worth it? Compared to the price of the car (or, our guns), the amount you save by going cheap on fuel/ammo is just stupid for all but the most active shooters (and those guys usually reload their brass before buying Wolf).

As a previous poster already said, just buy some Lake City in bulk. You can get it for $0.40 per round all day on Gunbroker. Divide the extra $0.15 you'll pay over Wolf into how long it takes for you to shoot the case, and then you'll realize that the price difference is trivial.

If you're having cash flow problems, maybe you should sell the POF and buy a cheap DI gun instead?
therex
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Posted: 8/4/2010 6:36:32 PM

Originally Posted By jimmy-buffett:
This reminds me of the guys who buy luxury sports sedans and then don't run them on premium gas. Yeah you can do it, but when the knock sensor retards your timing and you lose 40-50 HP, is it worth it? Compared to the price of the car (or, our guns), the amount you save by going cheap on fuel/ammo is just stupid for all but the most active shooters (and those guys usually reload their brass before buying Wolf).

As a previous poster already said, just buy some Lake City in bulk. You can get it for $0.40 per round all day on Gunbroker. Divide the extra $0.15 you'll pay over Wolf into how long it takes for you to shoot the case, and then you'll realize that the price difference is trivial.

If you're having cash flow problems, maybe you should sell the POF and buy a cheap DI gun instead?
I never understood this attitude. I hear it all the time, but never really understood it.

Let's say you and I have a fixed shooting budget. I simply can't (or won't) spend more than oh let's say 1000 bucks a year on ammunition. (I have a P308, btw, so that affects my thinking)

A quick search on gunbroker (as you suggested) says the cheapest I can get Lake City .308 is 400 dollars for 500 rounds. $.80/round. So for my yearly budget, I can fire my weapon 1,250 times. We'll ignore shipping, for the time being, and we'll assume I can't for whatever reason pick up my brass. I'm not a bench shooter, I bought a semi auto so that I could move AND shoot, not set up a sandbag fort and concentrate on not moving (just so I can pick up my brass).

So how about wolf? That same 500 rounds costs only 250 dollars. Probably less if I really bothered to search. (But you told me to go to gun broker, so here we are.) So, now for my 1000 dollar budget, at 50 cents a round, I can fire my weapon 2000 times. Half again as much and then some! You don't think that's worth considering?

Your car example, by the way, is pretty flawed. Lets say you have a Porsche 911 Turbo, it makes 500 horsepower. It also gets 24mpg, both on 93 octane. Now in your example, you'd have be some kind of bleeding moron to save 30 cents a gallon and lose, let's say 10% horsepower. And I'd agree with you. But let's say you can go to your local Wolf Fuel station, and fill her up with a magic steel-infused 87 octane that drops your horsepower down 10%, but increases your fuel economy 10% (Oh, and costs 10% less). Now you've got a 450 horsepower 911 that gets 26 and a half miles to the gallon. Not to shabby. Perfectly acceptable, one might say. Not only that, but Porsche says "Hey man, if you want to use Wolf 87 in your car, she'll take it. We designed it to be robust enough that you won't have to worry about it."

Now, some people paid for 500 horsepower and by God they're gonna get 500 horsepower. And that's fine. But there's no reason to call people stupid for being ok with 450 horsepower, and enjoying the extra fuel economy every once in a while.

I mean, in the end, you take 2 shooters of equal skill & potential, have one shoot a gun 1200 times and the other shoot it 2000 times and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who's the better shooter in the end.

"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." -Major Mike Shearer
freddd
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Posted: 8/4/2010 6:42:20 PM
[Last Edit: 8/4/2010 6:43:28 PM by freddd]
Originally Posted By therex:

I never understood this attitude. I hear it all the time, but never really understood it.

Let's say you and I have a fixed shooting budget. I simply can't (or won't) spend more than oh let's say 1000 bucks a year on ammunition. (I have a P308, btw, so that affects my thinking)

A quick search on gunbroker (as you suggested) says the cheapest I can get Lake City .308 is 400 dollars for 500 rounds. $.80/round. So for my yearly budget, I can fire my weapon 1,250 times. We'll ignore shipping, for the time being, and we'll assume I can't for whatever reason pick up my brass. I'm not a bench shooter, I bought a semi auto so that I could move AND shoot, not set up a sandbag fort and concentrate on not moving (just so I can pick up my brass).

So how about wolf? That same 500 rounds costs only 250 dollars. Probably less if I really bothered to search. (But you told me to go to gun broker, so here we are.) So, now for my 1000 dollar budget, at 50 cents a round, I can fire my weapon 2000 times. Half again as much and then some! You don't think that's worth considering?

Your car example, by the way, is pretty flawed. Lets say you have a Porsche 911 Turbo, it makes 500 horsepower. It also gets 24mpg, both on 93 octane. Now in your example, you'd have be some kind of bleeding moron to save 30 cents a gallon and lose, let's say 10% horsepower. And I'd agree with you. But let's say you can go to your local Wolf Fuel station, and fill her up with a magic steel-infused 87 octane that drops your horsepower down 10%, but increases your fuel economy 10% (Oh, and costs 10% less). Now you've got a 450 horsepower 911 that gets 26 and a half miles to the gallon. Not to shabby. Perfectly acceptable, one might say. Not only that, but Porsche says "Hey man, if you want to use Wolf 87 in your car, she'll take it. We designed it to be robust enough that you won't have to worry about it."

Now, some people paid for 500 horsepower and by God they're gonna get 500 horsepower. And that's fine. But there's no reason to call people stupid for being ok with 450 horsepower, and enjoying the extra fuel economy every once in a while.

I mean, in the end, you take 2 shooters of equal skill & potential, have one shoot a gun 1200 times and the other shoot it 2000 times and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who's the better shooter in the end.



THAT was awesome.
POF-USA
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Posted: 8/4/2010 11:29:50 PM
All points are valid here.

The use Quality ammo like Hornady to acheive best group sizes.
The use XM193 ammo which has many dings and / or dents in the cases your group sizes will be larger.

Best regards,

Frank L. DeSomma
Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc.
www.POF-USA.com
Sales@POF-USA.com
623-561-9572 WK.
623-321-1680 Fax



God Bless America
jimmy-buffett
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Posted: 8/5/2010 4:28:40 AM
Originally Posted By therex:I never understood this attitude. I hear it all the time, but never really understood it.


Not to cut your well-spoken opinion short, but this is all that really needs addressing.

My issue with spending $2K+ on a higher-end piston gun and then running crap ammunition through it is that your priorities seem inconsistent. You already spent more than double what you'd pay for a base DI gun (or, another $500 or so above a Ruger SR556 if you want to compare piston guns) to get the POF. Now we all love our POF guns and can cite the reasons for justifying the extra cost, and most of that comes down to quality and reliability.

Why pay the price premium to buy one of the most reliable rifles when you won't pay the price premium to buy good ammo for it? Is Wolf ammo 10% less consistent, 20% less consistent? Who knows. Do you know how old the batch you bought is, can you know what coating they used? Frank said above that the older stuff uses a coating that doesn't cycle well. I'd rather not get used to kicking out bad ammo so often that I overlook a legitimate problem with the gun, for me running LC through my POF any failure is a "wtf?" moment that causes a stop and some serious checking (expectedly rare), I'd rather not run the risk of getting used to poor performance to save a few cents per round.

It's not viable for everybody to police their brass, I agree. However, if you're going to shoot a lot ($1000/year to use your threshold), reloading is the best way to stretch those dollars out. For people who don't shoot a lot, the price difference is negligible. If your argument for cheap ammo is "I shoot a lot but in scenarios where I can't save brass", then buy what you like and remember that you get what you pay for. I'll be the guy next to you justifying the ammo budget to buy 2000 rounds of Lake City (just like how I justified the price premium for the rifle).

We're all here because we paid a premium to buy reliability via POF, it seems inconsistent to then suggest that it isn't worth paying a premium to run better quality ammunition through it.
timkel
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Posted: 8/5/2010 7:33:51 AM
To each, his own.
Steel cased 5.56 is all I use.
One time I had a shell stuck in the chamber. But this was a 5.45x39 in an AK-74. The cause was dried oil or cosmoline in the chamber(weapon was new). I used a wire brush on chamber to clean.