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mp40arff
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Posted: 9/8/2011 11:42:49 AM
I have a CMMG .22 Evolution upper. It showed up and right out of the box the charging handle was broke, not a good omen to start. The charging handle was replaced right away, so thats a non-issue, just was really annoying.

Once I had a charging handle, I finally went out to use the upper. I ordered 2 BHOA mags, both the followers would push down, but never come up. Messed with them for a bit, and then was sent 2 new BHOA mags from CMMG, those were also trash with the same issue. They then sent me two more, so a total of 6, and those were also garbage. So what I have now is basically a .22 upper, with no working mags, all garbage. I can never get a hold of anyone from CMMG, and they aren't exactly very helpful when I did get a hold of them. I had a few people interested in a upper, but they are holding off until they see what kind of issues can be resolved. I know I am not the only person who got stuck with garbage mags from CMMG.
CBR240
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Posted: 9/8/2011 2:23:05 PM
I also have no love for the CMMG 1st GEN BHO Mags. That two piece follower design is very clever, it's amazing they got anything to BHO in a std "Black Dog" type mag at all. As a science experiment it is very interesting; but, as a real working long term solution, NO they do not work. All 3 of min are in my special box for "mags that do not work".

I put mine aside over a month ago, they are just never going to be reliable. You can use std Black Dog mags for now, they feed fine (we have a dozen for our Sig 522) but do not do Last Roiund Bolt hold Open (unless you count the bolt slams the too tall follower, which I do NOT). Hopefully the CMMG 2nd Gen BHO mags will be here soon. Hopefully.

I lost patience (I have very little), and have modified a BHO device to hold a S&W M&P15-22 mags in the right place (we also have a 15-22, love it and it's mags, so have about 20 mags for it). I use the Catch22 (discussed in vendors forum) which works great with the CMMG bolt, and with my adapter to hold the 15-22 mags in place, it all works PERFECT. Every single round of the last ~600 I've fired (all through the 15-22 mags into the CMMG upper, were all CCI Mini Mags), worked perfect. No failure to feed, no stuck followers, BHO on last round EVERY single time. Now I have my CMMG upper (and assembled one of thier lowers for it) running with good mags, I love it. Before I was wishing I had bought another 15-22.

There seems to be a lot of tollerance here for sub-par mags in order to have BHO on last round. As I already had that, working perfect in a S&W 15-22, I am not willing to accept less for more money. It needs to function as well as my 15-22 or I don't want it.

So if CMMG ever gets good BHO mags out, great. Otherwise I'll just keep using the S&W 15-22 mags, loading easy with the load assist buttons, always feeding perfect, and always holding bolt open on last round. It's not an easy mod, but if you happen to have some 15-22 mags around I think it's worth it. I will document it in the Catch22 sub-forum hopefull this coming weekend.

I can honestly say that with the 15-22 mags working so well, my CMMG .22 LR AR has gone from being my least favorite to my most favorite .22 LR rifle (and we have quite a few .22s).
shadowcop
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Posted: 9/8/2011 2:45:58 PM
[Last Edit: 9/8/2011 2:46:46 PM by shadowcop]
Not that you should have to but did you try sanding the follower channel to open it up a bit?
My early BHOA mags are still working. While not the best design, it did and does work. With the latest round of mags something has to be off.
The only thing that can be off is either the follower is too big or the channel is too small. Thats so long as there is no imperfection in the channel for the follower to hang on.
I would disassemble the mag, put the follower in one side of the channel and see if it's hanging any particular place. If it is, sand it smooth.

The Gen ll mags will have a one piece follower that takes care of this issue along with steel feed lips.
Dave N
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Casper507
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Posted: 9/8/2011 3:14:04 PM
Originally Posted By mp40arff:
I have a CMMG .22 Evolution upper. It showed up and right out of the box the charging handle was broke, not a good omen to start. The charging handle was replaced right away, so thats a non-issue, just was really annoying.

Once I had a charging handle, I finally went out to use the upper. I ordered 2 BHOA mags, both the followers would push down, but never come up. Messed with them for a bit, and then was sent 2 new BHOA mags from CMMG, those were also trash with the same issue. They then sent me two more, so a total of 6, and those were also garbage. So what I have now is basically a .22 upper, with no working mags, all garbage. I can never get a hold of anyone from CMMG, and they aren't exactly very helpful when I did get a hold of them. I had a few people interested in a upper, but they are holding off until they see what kind of issues can be resolved. I know I am not the only person who got stuck with garbage mags from CMMG.


Velocity arms has 9-10 round mags that are based on Remington Mags with filler molded around them. great for bench shooting. I'm thinking of buying a few and modifying so they work with BHO device. Really don't care if hold open works at end of mag for these but would be nice if manual hold open was availible.
CBR240
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Posted: 9/8/2011 3:53:19 PM
Casper - If you use CMMG's excellent BHO device and std Black Dog Mags (Gen 2 or 4, lets not even get started on how horrible Gen 3 is), the std bolt catch release works fine (the BHO MAG follower is not needed for that). You only need mags that don't intefer with the CMMG BHO (the std Black Dogs do not interfer).

Before working out a solution for the S&W 15-22 mags, we used the Black Dogs mags we have (for our Sig 522) in the CMMG .22 without issue. The manual bolt catch release provided by the CMMG BHO adapter works fine; you just will not have Last Shot Bolt Hold Open when using the BD mags. You will have the bolt slaming against the too tall follower. You can get those Gen 2 Black Dog mags in 10 and 15 round version that work great for bench/bipod shooting.
shadowcop
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Posted: 9/9/2011 8:53:16 AM
The "too tall follower" is designed to hold the bolt back after the last shot is fired with the BDM and CMMG mags.
Dave N
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CBR240
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Posted: 9/9/2011 11:03:14 AM
I understand about the "too tall follower" Dave. I think it's a horrible 1/2 assed solution. What does that do for you? The mag will not drop free because the bolt against the follower is holding it. So now you have to either manually lock the bolt back, or yank the mag out. If you yank the mag out, then you still have to manually lock the bolt back unless you want to load on a closed bolt (in which case your still oging to have to pull the charging handle). The only thing it does for you is keep you from dry firing at the end of each mag.

On my 5.556 AR and my S&W 15-22, and all other fully functional AR platforms (including my CMMG modified to use 15-22 mags), when I am shooting off a bipod (laying on a mat):
- Fire last shot, bolt holds open.
- Hit magazine release, mag drops free of it's own weight.
- insert loaded mag.
- Hit bolt release.
- Continue fun.

This is the way an AR should function. It makes my shooting a very enjoyable experience. It's easy to do without shifting position. If I have to do the manually draw the bolt thing, ... I have to change position, and it's an annoyance. Since I have this on my 5.56 Ar, and on a S&W15-22, I will settle for no less. The too tall follower is what we have for the Sig 522, and I think that's a pathetic 1/2 assed solution. I am amazed that most people are willing to accept that.

And the too tall follower thing. You have a chunk of steel (the bolt) traveling at pretty hight speed, slamming right into that follow, that is held in place by the mag/feed lips. Seems like your asking for a cracked mag eventually. Is this why so many of those BD mags fail so soon? I don't know.

This is not rocket science. A fully working .22 LR AR is not that hard. Look at the S&W 15-22. It works right, all the time. ALL THE TIME. I got mine for $470 including Magpul MBUS. Why pay more for less funciton?

The "it's just a .22, so 1/2 functionality is good enough" attitude many of the manufactures (and many on this board) have just amazes me. I want all my guns to function properly. I mainly shoot .22 LR. 22s are real guns to me. Paying over $400 for a gun, I expect it to work.

That why I tried CMMG. They seemed to be the only conversion mfg that even attempted to do things right. I am very impressed with the bolt, the BHO adapter design, and everything but the Gen 1 BHO mags. They let down what would otherwise be and excellent plaform. They need to get working mags on the market. I could care less if they can be stack 2 deep to get 50 rounds. I don't care what they look like or what colors they are offered in. I just want them to work. Resonable price would be nice ($30 each is aobut 2x what I spend for 15-22 mags, pMags, and "GI mags"). Easy to load (like the 15-22) would be a plus. I'm not taking them to battle, so dirt possibly getting in side slots does not concern me. I hope most people are NOT carrying thier .22 LR ARs into battle.

Sorry for the rant.
shadowcop
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Posted: 9/9/2011 12:41:50 PM
The 15/22 is a dedicted AR .22. The CMMG upper is designed to use with an existing 5.56 lower.
The CMMG upper was actually designed for L.E.O. and Military training. That is where the forward assist and BHOA came in. They needed a full function upper to use on an existing lower.
The bolt hold mag followers lets you know when the last round has been fired and keeps you from accidentally dry firing which can cause firing pin damage/breakage.

My original BHOA mags do and always have worked. Not the best design but they do function correctly. I would say as of late, specs are off on either the BHOA followers or the follower channel.
You will never have an easy to load BHOA mag because it takes spring pressure to overcome the bolt catch spring and operate the BHOA.
Again, this design is for use with a 5.56 lower.

If you want to convert your lower to a dedicated .22, there is a bolt hold open bolt catch designed for that purpose.
Dave N
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CBR240
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Posted: 9/9/2011 2:08:48 PM
Originally Posted By shadowcop:
...
You will never have an easy to load BHOA mag because it takes spring pressure to overcome the bolt catch spring and operate the BHOA.
Again, this design is for use with a 5.56 lower.

If you want to convert your lower to a dedicated .22, there is a bolt hold open bolt catch designed for that purpose.
Dave N


Incorrect. I get the feeling you think I'm trying to be difficult, but I am actually just astounded and frustrated by how limited the thinking is in the .22 AR conversion market.

I already do have easy to load BHO Mags, the 15-22 mags. The are not only possible, but with a good design it's not even hard. It has nothing to do with being a dedicated .22; the same design (but sized to fit to std mag well) would work fine in a std lower + the CMMG BHOA (my 15-22 experiment proves that). It's about a good design, that's all. This conversion industry is so obsessed with Black Dog Mag compatability, that it can NOT move forward. It is quite possible to design a mag that would be easy to load, and would work a bolt catch.

I use the Catch22 bolt catch currently to get the 15-22 mags to FULLY work in my CMMG .22 rifle, so yes, I know about and understand that. The problem with that is it has no mags to operate the last round BHO (the Gen 3 Black Dog mags that are supposed to work, don't, and they are poorly done in general). That's when I noticed, it is just right for the 15-22 mags if they were held in the correct place. So I modified an adapter to hold them in the right place. With that my CMMG now has easy to load mags that always BHO on last round. They feed always, perfect.
Unlike the CMMG mags:
- I don't need a mag stick to unstick the followers.
- I don't need to sand and polish the inside of the mags, or the followers.
- I don't need to only load 10 rounds in 25 round mags.
The CMMG mags have all these issues because they are a poor design, not because it is impossible to do it right.
shadowcop
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Posted: 9/9/2011 2:35:34 PM
Good luck
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aceranch
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Posted: 9/9/2011 8:54:22 PM
Originally Posted By CBR240:
Originally Posted By shadowcop:
...
You will never have an easy to load BHOA mag because it takes spring pressure to overcome the bolt catch spring and operate the BHOA.
Again, this design is for use with a 5.56 lower.

If you want to convert your lower to a dedicated .22, there is a bolt hold open bolt catch designed for that purpose.
Dave N


Incorrect. I get the feeling you think I'm trying to be difficult, but I am actually just astounded and frustrated by how limited the thinking is in the .22 AR conversion market.

I already do have easy to load BHO Mags, the 15-22 mags. The are not only possible, but with a good design it's not even hard. It has nothing to do with being a dedicated .22; the same design (but sized to fit to std mag well) would work fine in a std lower + the CMMG BHOA (my 15-22 experiment proves that). It's about a good design, that's all. This conversion industry is so obsessed with Black Dog Mag compatability, that it can NOT move forward. It is quite possible to design a mag that would be easy to load, and would work a bolt catch.

I use the Catch22 bolt catch currently to get the 15-22 mags to FULLY work in my CMMG .22 rifle, so yes, I know about and understand that. The problem with that is it has no mags to operate the last round BHO (the Gen 3 Black Dog mags that are supposed to work, don't, and they are poorly done in general). That's when I noticed, it is just right for the 15-22 mags if they were held in the correct place. So I modified an adapter to hold them in the right place. With that my CMMG now has easy to load mags that always BHO on last round. They feed always, perfect.
Unlike the CMMG mags:
- I don't need a mag stick to unstick the followers.
- I don't need to sand and polish the inside of the mags, or the followers.
- I don't need to only load 10 rounds in 25 round mags.
The CMMG mags have all these issues because they are a poor design, not because it is impossible to do it right.


I'm also not sold on CMMG's BHOA mags. Other than that I think their products are great. Currently I employ BDM mags. I would prefer the 15-22 mags for ease of loading and bolt hold open. Please do a write up with pics for those of us who like to visualize our solutions.
mp40arff
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Posted: 9/14/2011 11:08:15 PM
CMMG stated for me to send all my mags back, then they will replace them with EVO's someday when they come out. I asked if I could keep the one that kind of works, and then their story changed to send back the 5, keep the best one, then they will work something out with me when the EVO's come out. So because I wanted to keep the one that kinda works until I get something that does work, that made their story change. Ill send them back the last crap one once I get something that works. I don't want a $450 dollar paperweight at my house for a month while they try to figure out their problems.
jerz_subbie
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Posted: 9/16/2011 12:25:16 PM
Man, I'm glad I didn't have these kind of mag issues and won't possibly have them for a while since I'm not planning on buying/building my .22 SBR upper until Christmas. Here's to hoping some nicer mags become available!


+1 on posting pics and details of how you modded the 15-22 mags, obviously not in the CMMG industry section
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shadowcop
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Posted: 9/18/2011 9:43:51 AM
The new BHOA gen ll are a completely different mag. One piece follower instead of the spring loaded 2 piece of the first gen.
In all fairness, my original BHOA first gen mags have always worked. I had one 10 round that wore the feed lips out. I had thousands of rounds on it.
So the design did work. Something else is going on with the latest gen l mags.
Dave N
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NorCalDustin
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Posted: 9/19/2011 1:18:45 AM
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 1:19:01 AM by NorCalDustin]
Originally Posted By shadowcop:
The new BHOA gen ll are a completely different mag. One piece follower instead of the spring loaded 2 piece of the first gen.
In all fairness, my original BHOA first gen mags have always worked. I had one 10 round that wore the feed lips out. I had thousands of rounds on it.
So the design did work. Something else is going on with the latest gen l mags.
Dave N

Same... I have 2 BHOA mags that were from the original batch and they work great.. I've got THOUSANDS of rounds through them...

It's just the other half-dozen mags from later batches that never worked right.
tvfreakarms
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Posted: 9/19/2011 3:12:43 AM
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 3:14:04 AM by tvfreakarms]
Here's my question if dry firing is bad for CMMG .22lr why doesn't the bolt lock back with any other type of mags other than CMMG mags? Unless your counting every round you shot so that you don't dry fire after the last round, it kind of doesn't make any sense to design the bolt like that. Especially if it's not good to dry fire it.

Is it impossible to make a bolt lock back with other mags? It seems like a design flaw. Not trying to say anything bad about CMMG cause i've heard good things about them but...it seems like a easy fix.

CBR240
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Posted: 9/19/2011 6:39:31 AM
Originally Posted By tvfreakarms:
Here's my question if dry firing is bad for CMMG .22lr why doesn't the bolt lock back with any other type of mags other than CMMG mags? Unless your counting every round you shot so that you don't dry fire after the last round, it kind of doesn't make any sense to design the bolt like that. Especially if it's not good to dry fire it.

Is it impossible to make a bolt lock back with other mags? It seems like a design flaw. Not trying to say anything bad about CMMG cause i've heard good things about them but...it seems like a easy fix.



It is impossible to make the bolt lock back CORRECTLY with other mags. Lets limit our discussion to .22 LR conversions (including dedicated uppers using mil-spec parts as much as possible). These mags (such as the first/second gen Black Dog Machine Mags) had no provision for BHO. The converisons themselves had no method of even bolt catch/release. The std "solution" to this was to use a "too" tall follower so that after the last round, the bolt slams into the too tall follower. So mag will not drop free (bolt pressing against follower will hold it here). When you pull the mag, the bolt will close, and you have to manually cycle the bolt I hate that, many people seem satified with that.
You can use these "too tall follower mags" with a CMMG upper, and it will function the same as with any other conversion upper.

That was the sad state of the AR .22 LR conversion bussness before the CMMG "Evolution"

I admire and support CMMG because they:try to move this industry foorward to a actual full functin AR. They brought us:
- A really good stainless steel bolt design.
- The excellent BHOA - this implements the bolt catch/release (huge step forward), and true Bolt Hold Open On Last Round with correct Mags. This is huge, and this part is excellent.
- Forward assist - no one else offers this for .22 LR AR conversions.
- Other imporvements I can't think of because it is too early in the morning I like thier little extras too, like thier quick change dust cover.

So, to me CMMG does it better than any one else in the conversion market. This industry has been stuck on the BD mag design for too long. That old design will never work right. It's time for a new mag design. I think when CMMG's 2 Gen BHO mags are available this will be a first class solution (which no one else offers in this market).
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Posted: 9/20/2011 6:16:05 PM
Bolt hold open magazines for a .22 are NOT a simple issue. A 9mm or a 5.56mm have a much stiffer magazine spring in them than the lowly .22. Then there is the dimensional issues. There is far more variation in the "Mil Spec" lowers and their parts out there than one would believe. I applaud CMMG for stepping up to the challenge of make a true BHOA when others just avoided the issue. The BDM long follower was a step up from nothing but it was far less than perfect. As for the CMMG units, they will work in some lower configurations better than others. In my own sampling of nine different AR lowers I find some brands have big variations in them. For example, I have a couple of RRA lowers. In one the BHOA works perfectly while in the other it refuses to work. I need to work on the bolt release spring like others have done to correct that. Mean while CMMG has designed an all new magazines that has great promise. While the old mag was an update modification of a previously designed mag the new magazine was purposed designed from the start to work with a BHOA. I have used the new design mag and its wonderful, a great leap forward.

So, try to appreciate the challenges of making a last round BHOA. I know its no fun when yours doesn't work but there are things that can be done.
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CBR240
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Posted: 9/20/2011 11:33:08 PM
BHO mags for a .22 AR SHOULD be a simple thing. Thats the problem here is they (the first gen mags) are overly complex.

Only problem I've had with the CMMG Gen 1 BHO mags is the follower sticking in the feed tube (and that is the complaint that I read the most from others). Has nothing to do with stiff springs, "variation in the "Mil Spec" lowers ", or any of that. It was a follower design that is impressive from a "wow, they made that work" perspective, but not a realiable real world solution. They seem to have figured that out, and designed a proper one piece follower for the gen 2 mag.

I have a perfectly working solution for my CMMG upper now, I've modified my lower to use the S&W 15-22 mags (currently by far the best mags for .22 LR rifles). They BHO perfect everytime, and in amost 10,000 rounds (Most S&W 15-22, > 600 CMMG upper/lower), and I've never had a mag jam, or BHO fail to work. And they are very, very easy to load. This really is not rocket science.

As far as the gen 2 CMMG BHO mags, I ordered mine on 7/2 (both 10 and 25 round), and have heard nothing. I also had another order that was listed in stock, but has not shipped (not mags), so I called them today to find out when I could expect shipment. Thier line was busy, but they did have a message that says they no longer give order status by phone, and you have to e-mail them, So I e-mailed and got no response. I'm very sad to see such poor customer service as I used to really have high hopes for this company.


Any of you guys ever read the Magpul website? They are a company I greatly admire. Not just products, but product design attitude. I often quite them at work, sometime to great affect Here are some words about what is simple and what is hard from thier site:

Easy is hard, hard is easy.
Unnecessary complexity and expensive construction are the hallmarks of mediocre design. It is almost always easier to design a product that is complicated, confusing, and expensive rather than simple, intuitive, and affordable. Although it is more difficult, Magpul has chosen to take the latter of these two approaches to product

http://www.magpul.com/foundations.html
CBR240
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Posted: 9/21/2011 10:19:34 PM
Well CMMG finally answered my e-mail, and this is what they had to say:

"In regards to the Evolution magazines, there has been a production delay and we are now expecting to start filling back orders for the magazines in 30-45 days."

So yet another month or two. Glad I got the 15-22 mags working or I'd be REALLY disappointed.
mp40arff
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Posted: 9/25/2011 7:48:17 PM
I may just have to buy some BD mags. At this point I cant steer anyone to order anything from CMMG, they are losing quite a bit of business around my range. Quite a few guys want an upper like mine but aren't going to order anything until CMMG has their stuff figured out.
shadowcop
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Posted: 9/25/2011 8:26:03 PM
Uppers are not a problem. But at this point, I would advise to buy the BDM mags and if you want to use the BHOA, do so manually.
Can't have too many mags.
Dave N
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