User Panel
Posted: 10/27/2016 10:50:08 PM EDT
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[#1]
Looks like the paint was put on poorly. Won't affect performance, but BCM has excellent customer service give them a call.
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[#2]
So many reports of small stuff like this from seems like all companies nowadays reinforces my feeling that all companies, even those that usually have stellar ratings for quality are suffering in quality control issues lately. My only guess is that they are all allowing stuff to go out without checking it as closely so that they get as much product out the door as they can before the election and then they will fix it after.
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[#3]
Just iffy laser etching, BCM will fix it I'm sure if you so desire. I wouldn't worry about it that much. I can't say I've ever looked that closely at my T-Marks. They get covered by optics and BUIS anyways.
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[#4]
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[#5]
I've bought many of their Blem uppers lately and none of them had T-marks that looked that bad. I wouldn't worry about it if you will use the gun as it is intended, but if it's going to be a safe queen then I would get ahold of BCM. For the amount of money you paid for that upper, I can understand your frustration. That upper should have been thrown in the blem pile. If you're not happy, BCM will take care of it.
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[#6]
Damn that must be terrible.
It would be a shame if the small lack of paint in the T-Marks somehow caused a catastrophic failure. Just shoot the damn thing. It's not a beauty queen. You're embarrasing yourself. |
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[#7]
Quoted:
Damn that must be terrible. It would be a shame if the small lack of paint in the T-Marks somehow caused a catastrophic failure. Just shoot the damn thing. It's not a beauty queen. You're embarrasing yourself. View Quote I figured I'd get a response like this eventually. Embarrassing myself? I don't feel embarrassed. I was merely asking if it was common, as I've never seen it before and it didn't seem up par with the quality and quality control that I'm used to with BCM. Considering I've owned several. Yes it's a tool, it's going to get used and scratched up but it shouldn't be that way from the start, especially when you pay good money for a premium product that is NEW. It's different if you're the one scratching it up.. If I had paid for a blem upper then I would expect something like that but I didn't. I paid for a new one so I'm not wrong to expect the QC that's come with every other new BCM product I've owned. You go buy a new Corvette and the badges are coming off. It doesn't impede function, so just drive it, right? My biggest concern is why this got past QC.. Was everything else done properly? I probably won't send it back but it's just not what I've come to expect out of BCM. |
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[#8]
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[#9]
OP, no that is not normal. While in the greater scheme of things it will not make one iota of difference in how the gun performs; there was an OOPS in QA/QC of this piece. Contact BCM and let them know. I am positive they will make it right and do what it is necessary to tweak their quality controls. To my untrained eye it looks like the laser did not burn through all of the anodizing. I really do not know anything about this process and would enjoy hearing from a knowledgeable source how laser marking works.
As far as being embarrassed; IMHO no. You asked a legitimate question in a technical forum. I like the BCM CS model. IMHO they front load the user / consumer with information to make an informed decision through articles, publications and even this forum. They are literally buying good will before you even purchase from them. They define their processes and materials on their web site so the user can determine if they fit their needs. I honestly like the feedback from training professionals and the "been there" guys. Cuts out the fanboys and middle men in the information stream. You never have to ask what something is made of, how it was tested or what need it fills. They will answer emails, if nothing more than to point you towards the correct web page which answers your questions. I have had positive results and the highest level of satisfaction with all of my BCM products. so far five build guns and one complete carbine. Sorry I got long winded. |
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[#10]
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[#11]
Quoted:
I've been less than impressed with BCM as far as fit and finish. BCM will tell you it doesn't matter as far as function, however. While this may be true, I'll find others next time. http://i65.tinypic.com/25ridqo.jpg View Quote That's a bummer.. I noticed when I was taking pics for this thread that this upper matched up to my Mega lower had that going on too, just not quite as noticeable. I wouldn't have thought two bcm products would be so off. Are they from two different time periods? Maybe they changed their anodizing process. |
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[#12]
I believe these were bought around the same time, but the upper first.
My understanding is that's it's a quality control issue. You have to change out the acid or whatever "bath" they dip the parts into. If you don't keep an eye on it- it can vary. So I think most likely, it was somebody asleep at the wheel. Quoted:
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I've been less than impressed with BCM as far as fit and finish. BCM will tell you it doesn't matter as far as function, however. While this may be true, I'll find others next time. http://i65.tinypic.com/25ridqo.jpg View Quote That's a bummer.. I noticed when I was taking pics for this thread that this upper matched up to my Mega lower had that going on too, just not quite as noticeable. I wouldn't have thought two bcm products would be so off. Are they from two different time periods? Maybe they changed their anodizing process. View Quote |
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[#13]
Interesting, none of my BCM uppers (five so far) or complete carbine have the BCM logo on the port side. Mine are always on the starboard side only. Granted I have only been buying BCM uppers for about the last four years.
Just curious, when was that carbine made? Quoted:
I've been less than impressed with BCM as far as fit and finish. BCM will tell you it doesn't matter as far as function, however. While this may be true, I'll find others next time. http://i65.tinypic.com/25ridqo.jpg View Quote |
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[#14]
Quoted:
Interesting, none of my BCM uppers (five so far) or complete carbine have the BCM logo on the port side. Mine are always on the starboard side only. Granted I have only been buying BCM uppers for about the last four years. Just curious, when was that carbine made? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Interesting, none of my BCM uppers (five so far) or complete carbine have the BCM logo on the port side. Mine are always on the starboard side only. Granted I have only been buying BCM uppers for about the last four years. Just curious, when was that carbine made? Quoted:
I've been less than impressed with BCM as far as fit and finish. BCM will tell you it doesn't matter as far as function, however. While this may be true, I'll find others next time. http://i65.tinypic.com/25ridqo.jpg Hmm. Mine have all been on the starboard side as well, minus the BFH logo of course. I've been running BCM for a few years now. |
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[#15]
Just got my upper in today. T marks are a little whompy like yours but not quit as bad. It also has some anodizing missing from there the charging handle would latch. It bothers me a little but not enough to go through the hassle of exchanging it. Everything else looks good.
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[#16]
The quality is dropping, but everyone seems to be ok with it.
Now I understand how half of the country, still votes for Clinton. |
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[#17]
Like I said, I think ALL the companies now, even the good ones, are taking 'a few' (not all) people off of their "quality control inspection" line and putting them to work on their production line to get as much product out the door as possible while the selling is good. I believe that their plan is that 99% of stuff will go out fine and the rest they will "make right for the customer" later when things come down. And stuff like this most customers won't send it back to be fixed anyways.
If they are ALL doing it then no one company reputation will suffer too much. As a matter of fact they probably figure that people out here are more concerned with getting product then some minor QC issues. Of course I am just totally talking out of my butt right now since I don't really know anything. Just a (conspiracy) theory) But it could be .... Would explain things a bit because we are seeing this in quite a few different brands that are usually 100% awesomeness. |
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[#19]
Quoted:
Like I said, I think ALL the companies now, even the good ones, are taking 'a few' (not all) people off of their "quality control inspection" line and putting them to work on their production line to get as much product out the door as possible while the selling is good. I believe that their plan is that 99% of stuff will go out fine and the rest they will "make right for the customer" later when things come down. And stuff like this most customers won't send it back to be fixed anyways. If they are ALL doing it then no one company reputation will suffer too much. As a matter of fact they probably figure that people out here are more concerned with getting product then some minor QC issues. Of course I am just totally talking out of my butt right now since I don't really know anything. Just a (conspiracy) theory) But it could be .... Would explain things a bit because we are seeing this in quite a few different brands that are usually 100% awesomeness. View Quote I have noticed this the last three election years. |
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[#20]
Quoted:
Interesting, none of my BCM uppers (five so far) or complete carbine have the BCM logo on the port side. Mine are always on the starboard side only. Granted I have only been buying BCM uppers for about the last four years. Just curious, when was that carbine made? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Interesting, none of my BCM uppers (five so far) or complete carbine have the BCM logo on the port side. Mine are always on the starboard side only. Granted I have only been buying BCM uppers for about the last four years. Just curious, when was that carbine made? Quoted:
I've been less than impressed with BCM as far as fit and finish. BCM will tell you it doesn't matter as far as function, however. While this may be true, I'll find others next time. http://i65.tinypic.com/25ridqo.jpg The early BCM uppers had the logo on both sides. |
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[#21]
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[#22]
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This plus the above comment about embarrassing yourself. Shoot the thing. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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EL OH EL This plus the above comment about embarrassing yourself. Shoot the thing. BCM fanboys are the worst part about BCM unfortunately. |
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[#23]
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BCM fanboys are the worst part about BCM unfortunately. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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EL OH EL This plus the above comment about embarrassing yourself. Shoot the thing. BCM fanboys are the worst part about BCM unfortunately. Whiney crybabies are the worst thing about America. I'd laugh at this no matter who made the upper. Once you have a optic and buis mounted it DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER because the tmarks are covered. Tmarks are stupid anyway. |
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[#24]
Quoted:
Whiney crybabies are the worst thing about America. I'd laugh at this no matter who made the upper. Once you have a optic and buis mounted it DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER because the tmarks are covered. Tmarks are stupid anyway. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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EL OH EL This plus the above comment about embarrassing yourself. Shoot the thing. BCM fanboys are the worst part about BCM unfortunately. Whiney crybabies are the worst thing about America. I'd laugh at this no matter who made the upper. Once you have a optic and buis mounted it DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER because the tmarks are covered. Tmarks are stupid anyway. I have an Aimpoint and Troy's on it... Like I said I'm probably not sending it back. No **** they're stupid, but if you're going to half *** it just don't do it in the first place. That's not BCM's style. |
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[#25]
I agree. It is not about whether it matters or not. It is about the fit and finish of a product (any product) relative to its cost and status in the industry. If I buy a used car or a cheap new car from a cheap car company known for making cheap crap cars that run, and the cigarette lighter doesn't work I figure oh well who cares. The car runs good and I knew up front that I was buying from cheapo cars inc and likely something wasn't going to be perfect. But if I buy a Ferrari and the lighter doesn't work I am pissed. Why? The lighter has no effect on the running of the car. It is the principle that I paid a heck of a lot for the car specifically because it was a Ferrari and as such I expect that everything is going to be perfect whether it affects the operation of the car or not. Other wise I could have saved a lot of money and bought a cheaper car.
And these companies (all companies of all products that sell higher end products) use this as part of their sales pitch! They tell you that they make better quality stuff and that if you buy their stuff you have a much lower chance of something not being right. This is part of their sales marketing in order to justify higher prices. If their marketing said hey we make stuff that works AND LOOKS like it has been in a war so if you get stuff from us and it's not pretty we don't care, then I would understand. But they don't. They spend tons of money on photographers that take sexy pics of their stuff for their websites and catalogs. They are trying to convince you that their products have better fit and finish and as such are worth higher prices than the competition. Seems to me that OP did not say that he was sending it back. Just that he was disappointed. I concur. I also can see how others could get the exact same thing and not give a crap. That makes sense to me too if that's your point of view. |
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[#26]
I have bought Colt, Spikes, Psa,Daniel Defense and Bcm Rifles, the past few Bcm uppers and lowers I have bought have pretty much looked like blems that I have bought from Psa and yes it a tool and not a glass case collectible but if I'm paying over $1,100 for a Bcm I expect it to come looking like a my Daniel Defense rifles I have bought. I believe the Bcm fan boys have become like the Arsenal fan boys and pretty much accepting the quality control issues.
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[#27]
Not normal, they'll take care of it, I wouldn't even bother with it, personally. I beat the shit out of mine anyways.
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[#28]
If you complain, they'll take it back, but then you'll likely get blacklisted as a customer, have your future orders cancelled, and they will politely tell you not to order from them again.
They have done this to me and others. I haven't posted about this experience before, but others have. I still own some of their stuff, but their attitude is kind of shitty and there are enough fanboys that it won't matter. I tell friends that are interested in BCM that they make good stuff, but to order/buy the blemmed items because you will likely get something with cosmetic flaws so you might as well get the discount. Or if you live near a dealer that carries their stuff, look at it in person before buying and there won't be any surprises. |
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[#29]
Quoted:
If you complain, they'll take it back, but then you'll likely get blacklisted as a customer, have your future orders cancelled, and they will politely tell you not to order from them again. They have done this to me and others. I haven't posted about this experience before, but others have. I still own some of their stuff, but their attitude is kind of shitty and there are enough fanboys that it won't matter. I tell friends that are interested in BCM that they make good stuff, but to order/buy the blemmed items because you will likely get something with cosmetic flaws so you might as well get the discount. Or if you live near a dealer that carries their stuff, look at it in person before buying and there won't be any surprises. View Quote They offered to take care of it, at my shipping expense. Meh. I'll keep it and just buy a DD or LWRC the next time I'll be spending good money on a rifle. |
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[#31]
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They made you pay return shipping? That's not right. View Quote That's how I felt too. They offered to inspect it for me if i shipped it back to them, which would cost about $30. Hopefully the cosmetic issue was the only thing that made it through QC and that they didn't skip that process entirely. |
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[#32]
Why do they need to inspect it in person, don't they have email? Your pics show that it's clearly a blem, I'd just forward the pics to them so they can see for themselves. I agree that cosmetically it doesn't matter, but if you didn't buy a blem then BCM shouldn't send you one. This was THEIR mistake and they need to make it right on THEIR dime. If their QC process misses something as clear to the naked eye as those janky T-Marks, how can anyone feel comfortable that their QC process isn't missing other aspects of the upper like the specific dimensions, tolerances, etc.? My money is too hard-earned not to get exactly what I pay for, and if I buy from BCM I'm supposed to be paying for quality.
Yeah yeah yeah the marks don't really matter, but it begs the question, "What else was overlooked?". I wouldn't trust it, IMO. |
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[#33]
The reason I have switched to spikes. BCM has gone down hill and everything at one time was BCM for me. Their CS really sucks.
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[#34]
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[#35]
Quoted:
Damn that must be terrible. It would be a shame if the small lack of paint in the T-Marks somehow caused a catastrophic failure. Just shoot the damn thing. It's not a beauty queen. You're embarrasing yourself. View Quote |
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[#36]
Quoted:
I've been less than impressed with BCM as far as fit and finish. BCM will tell you it doesn't matter as far as function, however. While this may be true, I'll find others next time. http://i65.tinypic.com/25ridqo.jpg View Quote It would match my purple BCM "blem" upper perfectly. I use my stuff. (Not saying you don't), I really don't care about cosmetics. |
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[#37]
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[#38]
Necro thread, I'll bite though. You are paying for a top shelf item, not a blemished Anderson lower, even if they probably cost the same to make. Hence the expectation of perfection, not half-assery. It's not about whining, it's about getting what you paid top dollar for. It's funny how we saw the same thing in the Colt thread.
Sure it's cosmetic, but you paid a premium price for it assuming it's not used or Bubba'd. BCM's reputation should be worth the $30 return shipping. Then again you never know if you just got the half ass employee who didn't want to deal with you, when the company itself may value correcting it. |
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[#39]
I wish T marks didn't exist. I don't ever use them. With that said my BCM does not look like that.
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[#40]
I actually use T-Marks as a quick way to standardize locations of accessories between different carbines (RDS location, etc).
Regarding the OP's question... I assembled my first AR in '84 from a gun show polybag (USGI surplus) parts kit on a SGW Stop Sign lower. Later that year I bought my first "factory" AR...a Colt SP1 Carbine. Just for reference...that Colt had what can only be described as "nail polish" (black touch up paint) where the gun's finish was marred during assembly. Remember, these Colts had a gray anodized finish so that black paint stood out. We've gone from a group of hobbyist that could discern the difference between a XX Fancy Walnut Stocked luxury rifle and a mass produced rifle intended for military purposes. Does it matter if the etching in the T Marks looks slightly different? What about the color of the upper and lower? Are they perfectly matched? I'm guessing not, because they where anodized separately. Honestly, the "finish" concerns are getting out of hand...especially at the price point ARs are currently selling at. In 2005 I bought a Colt 6920 (Dealer New / I cut the box seal) for $1259. EGADS it had finish marks from teh factory! The lower was so poorly machined I could see swirls on the mag well! I can get a similar Colt 6920 today for around $800. $800 in 2017 Dollars vs $1259 TWELVE YEARS AGO (adjust that for inflation). If you want perfection be prepared to pay for it. If you want a serviceable product that is manufactured to a standard to support its intended use...be grateful for the DIRT CHEAP pricing and options currently available to you and stop nitpicking stuff that really doesn't matter. I don't want to come across as an ass, but seriously. Shoot the gun, and after you bump something at the range it'll have a nice scratch on it. You'll forget all about the t-marks. |
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[#41]
Quoted:
I actually use T-Marks as a quick way to standardize locations of accessories between different carbines (RDS location, etc). Regarding the OP's question... I assembled my first AR in '84 from a gun show polybag (USGI surplus) parts kit on a SGW Stop Sign lower. Later that year I bought my first "factory" AR...a Colt SP1 Carbine. Just for reference...that Colt had what can only be described as "nail polish" (black touch up paint) where the gun's finish was marred during assembly. Remember, these Colts had a gray anodized finish so that black paint stood out. We've gone from a group of hobbyist that could discern the difference between a XX Fancy Walnut Stocked luxury rifle and a mass produced rifle intended for military purposes. Does it matter if the etching in the T Marks looks slightly different? What about the color of the upper and lower? Are they perfectly matched? I'm guessing not, because they where anodized separately. Honestly, the "finish" concerns are getting out of hand...especially at the price point ARs are currently selling at. In 2005 I bought a Colt 6920 (Dealer New / I cut the box seal) for $1259. EGADS it had finish marks from teh factory! The lower was so poorly machined I could see swirls on the mag well! I can get a similar Colt 6920 today for around $800. $800 in 2017 Dollars vs $1259 TWELVE YEARS AGO (adjust that for inflation). If you want perfection be prepared to pay for it. If you want a serviceable product that is manufactured to a standard to support its intended use...be grateful for the DIRT CHEAP pricing and options currently available to you and stop nitpicking stuff that really doesn't matter. I don't want to come across as an ass, but seriously. Shoot the gun, and after you bump something at the range it'll have a nice scratch on it. You'll forget all about the t-marks. View Quote A car's purpose is to get you from point A to point B. Would you buy a new car with a messed up paint job? It's just aesthetics and doesn't affect the performance. |
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[#42]
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I have over 2 grand into this thing and it's taken a couple falls already. It's not bad if I'm the one doing it. I'm sorry I don't roll with cheap shit and expect what I paid for. Rude customer service on top of it. A car's purpose is to get you from point A to point B. Would you buy a new car with a messed up paint job? It's just aesthetics and doesn't affect the performance. View Quote |
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[#43]
Analogies are strawman arguments.
Has the price of cars DECREASED? The price of quality AR15s have. I've seen NIB Colt 6920s for $719 (NOT OEM models). This is 40% less than they sold for 10 years ago. I think I'll drop by my Ford dealership to pick up a $18k Mustang GT tomorrow (I bought a new GT in 2005 that stickered at about $30k so it should only cost $18k now). AR prices have decreased while perfection expectations have increased. Many noobs want absolute flawless AR15s, but they don't realize this was never the case before. Some companies emerged that catered to the fit and finish crowd but skimped on the pefromsnxd side. Maybe the OP should look at RRA. |
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[#44]
BCM prices haven't decreased. They are one of the few companies that haven't budged in years.
This is my 3rd BCM over the years. It's not up to par with the rest and I questioned the quality. This is what I expect from ar15 though. Also: There's been a lot of garbage coming out of the Colt factory lately. I used to have an 05 GT. Yours definitely isn't worth 18 anymore. |
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[#45]
This is what you expected from AR15.com?!?
Take your complaint to TOS and see how you're treated. |
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[#46]
Fanboys? Pretty much.
Your argument of prices dropping doesn't really apply with bcm as their prices haven't. So wanting more and paying less isn't really a valid statement considering I paid the same as I always have for my bcm products and they've always been perfect. This was actually the most expensive upper I've purchased from them. I love bcm but not to the point where I won't question something that doesn't seem up to par with their usual products. The fact that companies sell blemished items for less money tells me that finish matters to people. Would you buy a brand new 1500+ dollar handgun that had a messed up finish? It's one thing if you're the one putting the wear on it but it shouldn't be that way from the factory. When you get into higher end stuff you have diminishing returns with performance with less room for improvement so little things like good quality control and customer service do come into play. Original post was me asking a question, not complaining. I don't know what TOS is. I guess I'm just not operator enough. |
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[#47]
TOS stands for "the other site". M4Carbine.net.
I've bought enough Ed Brown, Les Baer and other high end guns to know perfection isn't going to happen. Cosmetic issues have ALWAYS been present on "top shelf" production guns. After you've spent 30+ years of intense shooting, collecting and trading you're expectations will become reasonable. If you want a perfect gun (or perfect anything) ...life will be difficult for you. I don't care what it is ... no such thing as perfect. Except perhaps on the interwebs. |
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[#48]
It's not exactly perfection that I'm asking for. My ak's came with marks and stuff on them and that was fine. To be expected. I have guns with holster wear and marks from me being an idiot but I put them there. I've had a handful of AR's and this current bcm has marks on it that I put there and sharpied over.
I've just never bought a blem or a "cheap" AR so I didn't expect to get a blem item from a company that usually separates said items and sells them for a discounted price. They sell blems discounted for a reason. If I had paid for a blem I would be fine with it. In fact if they had blem uppers in the configuration I wanted I would have been all over it. Pay for new non blemished and I expect new and non blemished. And I'm not sure who posted it but the color of this bcm lower and upper match perfectly compared to my mega/spikes/riflegear lowers. Doesn't matter but it makes my brain quirks happy. |
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[#49]
It seems fair to me that some people don't care about the fit and finish of their guns.
It also seems fair that others do, and want their stuff the look like the expensive quality they paid for. Car comparison makes sense to me and doesn't fit my understanding of straw man argument. OP has a legitimate gripe and the "well I use my stuff" argument is the REAL straw man argument here because it has nothing to do with OP's concern about the finish of the thing he paid top dollar for. |
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