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Actually it may help me get agencies to adopt, and or allow, BCM rifles on duty. Cops don't clean anything.
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Quoted: Actually it may help me get agencies to adopt, and or allow, BCM rifles on duty. Cops don't clean anything. That would be awesome. |
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Guys- the reason i run the T&E guns like this is purely to see how they will function over the long term with minimal maintenance (think lube- specifically SLiP2000 EWL here), I know the guns run well clean and well lubed.
I want to see how well they run when not cleaned. These guns are not carried/ used for real. They are purely range guns. While using multiple AR's for extended periods with high round counts over the years, trend become obvious. The first is that not all AR's are equal. To even consider that is madness. The second is that the myth of obsessvive cleaning is exactly that. We have seen posts on this forum where people claim they clean that AR every time they fire a single round, this cleaning taking up to 8 hours. Absolute stupidity... Regular maintenance provides a side benefit. It allows for parts inspection. If you use the gun for real, you need to keep it reasonably clean and well lubed. You just don't have to act like a field mouse on crack when you do clean it. |
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Quoted: Guys- the reason i run the T&E guns like this is purely to see how they will function over the long term with minimal maintenance (think lube- specifically SLiP2000 EWL here), I know the guns run well clean and well lubed. I want to see how well they run when not cleaned. These guns are not carried/ used for real. They are purely range guns. While using multiple AR's for extended periods with high round counts over the years, trend become obvious. The first is that not all AR's are equal. To even consider that is madness. The second is that the myth of obsessvive cleaning is exactly that. We have seen posts on this forum where people claim they clean that AR every time they fire a single round, this cleaning taking up to 8 hours. Absolute stupidity... Regular maintenance provides a side benefit. It allows for parts inspection. If you use the gun for real, you need to keep it reasonably clean and well lubed. You just don't have to act like a field mouse on crack when you do clean it. Great advice and an excellent experiment to be sure. Thanks Pat! While my experience is certainly less than yours (by a wide margin), I have noticed this to be true as well. When I got my first AR I was super anal about cleaning it and making sure it was the cleanest thing in the world. Now I do a real basic cleaning. Clean out the important areas but don't be obsessive about it. Put a few patches through the bore. Maybe I'm wrong but I've never been able to "keep putting patches through the bore until they come out clean." My cleaning has gone from 3 hours to 45 minutes and I haven't noticed any big change in reliability or performance of the firearm. The limiting factor is still my ability to shoot it. Filthy 14 seems to show that it is much more important to replace wearable parts at proper intervals and keep the darn things lubed. On a random note: Pat, have you gotten any of those Fail Zero (or other similar coating) products to T&E? I'm curious if those actually work as advertised. It seems like they are unnecessary based on what we have learned from #14, but I suppose a chance at improvement shouldn't be dismissed without a close look. |
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Quoted:
Regular maintenance provides a side benefit. It allows for parts inspection. If you use the gun for real, you need to keep it reasonably clean and well lubed. You just don't have to act like a field mouse on crack when you do clean it. |
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I have never used FZ or any of the other type parts. Sorry...
My strong feeling is that if you are taking more than 10-15 min cleaning your AR you are probably watching a porn movie while you are doing it. What is taking you so long |
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Pat,
Besides the times after just cleaning this gun, what reservations would you have about using it as your "go to" gun in a normal combat zone setting? You know, dirty and all. |
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The older I get, the less time I want to spend cleaning guns. I knock the heavy stuff off of them, let some Wipe-Out foaming bore cleaner do the work for me, and spend more time shooting. Heck, I've done enough shooting in my life to make the observation that some guns shoot much better with a little copper in the bore, and carbon in their gassy places to help seal things up.
We had a guy on our sniper team who would spend hours cleaning his bore, only to see his CBS go crazy every time we'd go back out to the range. His groups would improve after about 10rds, and hold tight the rest of the day. His bbl liked to have some fouling in it, otherwise it got cranky. |
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I've addressed this in print a few dozen times.
I don't carry a gun for a living anymore, so moot. However, if i did, i would give a field cleaning every few thousand rds or when environmental conditions warrented cleanining. |
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Strongly suggest you read the SWAT article about Filthy 14, or the multiple AAR's on LF. They detail everything about Filthy 14. Short answer, broke bolt lugs around 16k, replaced extractor/ spring a few times, action spring a few times- all wear items. It went way past what i had believed realistic Would that include gas rings |
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My strong feeling is that if you are taking more than 10-15 min cleaning your AR you are probably watching a porn movie while you are doing it. What is taking you so long Tough to clean using only one hand. |
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We have replaced Bolt Rings every 5-7k rds Thanks Pat By the way every time I order from BCM I always put " Pat Rogers sent me " in the comments |
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Hey Pat,
What ended up happening to "Filthy 14?" Did it go back to Paul at Bravo Company? If you guys are done with it, I'd consider buying it for the awesomeness. |
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Paul looked it over while we were at the Dane County Class- tightened up the rail.
It is back in the rotation, and we'll keep shooting it until drops dead. I imagine then it will go on the wall in the armory in the new Bravo Company World Headquarters! In the meantime we have #70 (which is EAG carbine serial number 10) doing the same deal as Filthy 14. |
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Pat, in your experience what causes an AR bolt to fail to return to battery? Is it carbon, dirt, lack of lube or a combination? I've not had issues but enough people report issues that I'm thinking it's about lubrication.
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Quoted: Pat, in your experience what causes an AR bolt to fail to return to battery? Is it carbon, dirt, lack of lube or a combination? I've not had issues but enough people report issues that I'm thinking it's about lubrication. Just an educated guess... Probably a combo of the 3 and a weak buffer spring. |
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Jack- off topic. But.
Generally lack of lube, because there are still idiots who want to run their guns dry. Carbon- mixed with improper lube may be a contributory factor. We use ONLY SLiP 2000 EWL, for a reason. As stated above, worn action springs can contribute to the problem. Back to Filthy 14... |
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Mr. Rogers,
Thanks for the great extended T&E. The results and you articles have given me much confidence in my BCM upper and maintenance practices. Please keep us updated on the status of Filthy 14 as well as #70. |
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Quoted: Mr. Rogers, Thanks for the great extended T&E. The results and you articles have given me much confidence in my BCM upper and maintenance practices. Please keep us updated on the status of Filthy 14 as well as #70. He prefers to be called Pat. Just FYI. |
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That's amazing durability from a non-CHF barrel. A wag has suggested that the CL barrel on Filthy 14 shoots so well after so many rounds because we have never but a brush down the bore.. I may have put a patch down once after a sand storm, but the barrel has never been cleaned |
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So is that just a Filthy-14 thing that you haven't cleaned the barrel, or do you recommend not cleaning the barrel for any chrome lined gun?
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I don't carry a cabrine for a living, so how i maintain a carbine may be different from how someone else may do it.
I don't put a brush down the tube unless there is a blockage. This dates back to M14 High Power days. Then i only used a wet patch and a dry patch. With the M4, i don't punch the tube/ clean the chamber on any of the guns (which are mostly BCM ML now) |
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I don't carry a cabrine for a living, so how i maintain a carbine may be different from how someone else may do it. I don't put a brush down the tube unless there is a blockage. This dates back to M14 High Power days. Then i only used a wet patch and a dry patch. With the M4, i don't punch the tube/ clean the chamber on any of the guns (which are mostly BCM ML now) I typically punch the bore one time with a boresnake that has lube at the "front" tip of the rope. That said, I will have to say that every time I do it, I feel kind of silly trying to "clean" a chrome-lined bore that's going to get just as fouled up after one shot. I may just stop doing it altogether. |
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I don't have exact rd count with me- somewhere around 43,xxx
Most want to shoot the EAG carbines at class rather than Filthy 14, so not a lot more downrange. Pics? Of what?? A dirty gun? |
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Hey Pat,
A few questions, how is #70 doing? Is there a reason #14 got less than 2000 rounds in the last year? Last year in February it was at 42,xxx now its at 43,xxx. Are people in your classes reluctant to use #14 due to how dirty it is? Thanks for the info, I've been following this story for quite some time and its awesome. |
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Reluctent because it was dirty?
Not at all Nah, we took it OOS during a long run of classes to tighten up the rail and Paul wanted to inspect it It is back in the line up but most want to shoot the EAG carbine, possibly prior to buying the gun/ orupper. #70 has just over 12k on it, no cleaning and mo malfunctions. We keep iy libed with SLiP EWL and run ARC magazines in it |
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Reluctent because Filthy 14 was dirty?
Not at all Nah, we took it OOS during a long run of classes to tighten up the rail and Paul wanted to inspect it It is back in the line up but most want to shoot the EAG carbine, possibly prior to buying the gun/ orupper. #70 has just over 12k on it, no cleaning and mo malfunctions. We keep iIt lubed with SLiP EWL and run ARC magazines in it |
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Do you think bbl diameter affect it at all? Do you think a lightweight profile would wear out any faster?
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44k here, original BCG. I have changed the gas rings though, and clean it after I shoot it. Some day that thing is going to rock me when it finally breaks.
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Pat, Is 14 still on bolt number 2? That is correct,- still bolt #2 |
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Do you think bbl diameter affect it at all? Do you think a lightweight profile would wear out any faster? I have no idea. I just shoot guns, and don't get involved in guessing about them. |
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Makes you wonder how one can last soooo much longer than another?
Pat, do you or Paul have the original failed bolt? At some point, a forensic analysis on both bolts might prove very interesting! |
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I sent Paul the original a long time ago
It is not unusual to have bolt lugs crack at 16k with a harsh firing schedule. I have had several M4A1 (that is, Colt) bolts break at from 10k-16k) Lesser firing schedules would clearly make for increased longevity, but as Filthy 14 has only been used in class, i have no idea why it lasted this long |
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Wow i am impressed with high quality ar-15's like bcm and high quality lube like slip 2000. i will be buying more slip 2000 right now.
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Lol, a few years ago a guy laughed at me for using slip2000. I did a little feedback report on it and the guy told me I was wasting my money if I bought anything other than Break Free.
Pat, Have you tried frog lube yet ? I'm a hard core slip guy but I must say frog lube is gtg . |
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Does anyone have a copy of the Filthy 14 pdf? The link to it on the BCM website is broken, and I cannot seem to find it anywhere else. I can IM anyone my email address that may have it. Thanks.
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Does anyone have a copy of the Filthy 14 pdf? The link to it on the BCM website is broken, and I cannot seem to find it anywhere else. I can IM anyone my email address that may have it. Thanks. No link to the PDF but here's the article on the Slip2000 website: http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html |
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no pic's? I, too, would like to see her in all her dirty, beaten glory. |
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no pic's? I, too, would like to see her in all her dirty, beaten glory. I too would like to see it's current state I just bought a BCM about a month ago, mostly based on that article and lots of peer review. |
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Paul looked it over while we were at the Dane County Class- tightened up the rail. It is back in the rotation, and we'll keep shooting it until drops dead. I imagine then it will go on the wall in the armory in the new Bravo Company World Headquarters! In the meantime we have #70 (which is EAG carbine serial number 10) doing the same deal as Filthy 14. So pat how many rounds does the (BFH) EAG carbine have through it now and any parts replaced yet? thanks |
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