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Posted: 4/10/2014 8:21:28 AM EDT
Sure enough now the Sgt Maj of the Marine Corp is agreeing.    How do these guys get to where they are at?  What a loser.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20140409/NEWS05/304090064/Sgt-Maj-Marine-Corps-Barrett-Less-pay-raises-discipline


Sgt. Maj. of the Marine Corps Barrett: Less pay raises discipline


Lower pay and slimmed-down benefits will make Marines more disciplined and less wasteful, according to the Corps’ top enlisted Marine.

In comments before a Senate Armed Services Committee panel on Wednesday, Sgt. Maj. of the Marine Corps Micheal Barrett dismissed lawmaker concerns that proposed compensation trims in the Pentagon’s fiscal 2015 budget proposal would hurt troops’ morale or desire to serve.

“Marines don’t run around asking about compensation, retirement modernization,” he said. “That’s not on their mind. As I talk to thousands of audiences, they want to know into whose neck do we put a boot next.

“They want to know about what new equipment are we getting, are we continuing to modernize. Just because the budget sucks, does that mean we’re not going to get our new gear?”

Barrett’s comments came in contrast to his counterparts in the other services, who conceded to senators that lower pay raises, scaled-back commissary offerings and smaller housing stipends would be problematic for many servicemembers.

Instead, Barrett argued that the lower quality of life would be beneficial to Marines.

“I truly believe it will raise discipline,” he said. “You’ll have better spending habits. You won’t be so wasteful.”

Both Barrett and the other leaders emphasized that without changes in compensation, force readiness will suffer. Pentagon leaders have said that they need to trim a host of benefits and family assistance efforts to ensure that training and equipment modernization funds aren’t compromised.

“In my 33 years, we’ve never had a better quality of life,” Barrett said. “We’ve never had it so good. If we don’t get ahold of slowing the growth, we will become an entitlement-based, a health care provider-based Corps, and not a war fighting organization.”

So far, that’s been a tough sell for Congress.

On Wednesday, several senators said they objected to any changes in troops’ pay and benefits until after the Military Compensation and Retirement Modernization Commission offers its recommendations on overhauling the system. Their report is set for early 2015.

Lawmakers are expected to begin marking up their versions of the fiscal 2015 defense budget next month.

When asked whether a smaller compensation package could be seen as a broken promise by servicemembers, Barrett said few Marines use pay and benefits as a factor in enlisting.

“They don’t want an easy life,” he said. “They want to be tougher people. They want the pride of belonging, being something bigger than themselves.”
View Quote
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:23:26 AM EDT
[#1]
I usually would not speak out against a high ranking senior Non Commissioned Officer, but that statement is utter bullshit.

Service members sacrifice more than your average citizen, and deserve every penny of the compensation we get.

Free
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:28:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Logical conclusion: if less pay raises morale, would they not be super-loyal if we stop paying them at all?

What does that Sergeant-Major take home? Would he be  a better NCO if he worked for free?
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:32:13 AM EDT
[#3]
NCOs and officers looking to suck up to the administration would say shit like that.  He is one ass hat not looking after the best interests of his men.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:36:18 AM EDT
[#4]
I wouldn't disagree that some of us are overpaid but this is just ridiculous.

Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:38:31 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I wouldn't disagree that some of us are overpaid but this is just ridiculous.

View Quote


Yep.  Sort of like the stunning silence from our entire senior leadership when Paul Ryan tried to fuck us all on our retirement pay (well all of us except the four stars).
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:42:10 AM EDT
[#6]
He has clearly forgotten where he came from.

ETA; on second thought Fuck You Asshole.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:43:34 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yep.  Sort of like the stunning silence from our entire senior leadership when Paul Ryan tried to fuck us all on our retirement pay (well all of us except the four stars).
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I wouldn't disagree that some of us are overpaid but this is just ridiculous.



Yep.  Sort of like the stunning silence from our entire senior leadership when Paul Ryan tried to fuck us all on our retirement pay (well all of us except the four stars).


As a guy that will separate in June with just over five years... I would have made out with that deal...

But retention pretty much requires a gold plated retirement, because ain't nobody having a good time in uniform these days.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:43:53 AM EDT
[#8]
Disregard.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:48:08 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


As a guy that will separate in June with just over five years... I would have made out with that deal...

But retention pretty much requires a gold plated retirement, because ain't nobody having a good time in uniform these days.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I wouldn't disagree that some of us are overpaid but this is just ridiculous.



Yep.  Sort of like the stunning silence from our entire senior leadership when Paul Ryan tried to fuck us all on our retirement pay (well all of us except the four stars).


As a guy that will separate in June with just over five years... I would have made out with that deal...

But retention pretty much requires a gold plated retirement, because ain't nobody having a good time in uniform these days.


I'm not talking about the proposed new retirement scheme, I'm talking about the 1% annual decrease in COLA for retirees under the age of 62.  It wouldn't affect you.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:48:41 AM EDT
[#10]
“In my 33 years, we’ve never had a better quality of life,” Barrett said. “We’ve never had it so good. If we don’t get ahold of slowing the growth, we will become an entitlement-based, a health care provider-based Corps, and not a war fighting organization.”
View Quote



the ONLY part I'll agree with... just a little. Doesn't mean cut pay it means hold a fucking standard and boot the assholes who don't meet it

start taking money from Jr Marines and discipline and morale go down the shitter -  not up... I don't care how good your NCO/SNCO's are - who are also losing money.

Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:48:47 AM EDT
[#11]
Oh, that one.

Yeah, that whole thing was pretty disgraceful.

Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:50:10 AM EDT
[#12]
I think what he's saying is less pay will attract less "Free Shit Army" types and more people who just want to be Marines because they just can't fucking imagine not being a Marine. I can't say he's wrong.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:53:29 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think what he's saying is less pay will attract less "Free Shit Army" types and more people who just want to be Marines because they just can't fucking imagine not being a Marine. I can't say he's wrong.
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Quoted:
I think what he's saying is less pay will attract less "Free Shit Army" types and more people who just want to be Marines because they just can't fucking imagine not being a Marine. I can't say he's wrong.


That's not what he said though.  

Instead, Barrett argued that the lower quality of life would be beneficial to Marines.


Really?  The more it sucks, the better it is for the troops?  I guess that is the Marine's motto and modus operandi, make it suck so damn bad nobody wants to stay after their initial enlistment.  Grind them up and spit them out, so they can brag the rest of their lives about how hard and bad they were for four years (not that they had the fortitude to stick around).
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 9:57:32 AM EDT
[#14]
The Marines only let about 15% of first tour guys stay in.

It really cuts down on costs.

Of course there are some downsides.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 10:00:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The Marines only let about 15% of first tour guys stay in.

It really cuts down on costs.

Of course there are some downsides.
View Quote


It's easier to do when you let another branch provide your medical services, logistics services, and transportation infrastructure.

ETA:  I forget who said it here on the board but it's an absolute truism.  The Marine Corps has done something no other branch of service has managed.  They've given value (outside the .mil world) to being a former Marine.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 10:46:27 AM EDT
[#16]
All of those things are true.

I have a cousin that spent four years in the USMC Reserve.  He was a mortarman and deployed as a helicopter rigger.

That experience and a four year degree got him a job as a mid level executive at Target.  The guy that hired him told him that his service as a Marine was the key attribute which other applicants didn't possess.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 11:54:21 AM EDT
[#17]
Never could understand why officers made so much more money than enlisted. Especially junior officers, since they are so fucking useless for the most part.



Looks like the goal is to completely get rid of the military.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 11:57:16 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Never could understand why officers made so much more money than enlisted. Especially junior officers, since they are so fucking useless for the most part.

Looks like the goal is to completely get rid of the military.
View Quote


It has a lot to do with getting people to join.

As for the purported uselessness of officers, I don't think you know what you are talking about.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 12:14:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Medical and retiree benefits are eating the .mil budget alive, not the E-3 on the bottom of the food chain.

What a complete and utter tool.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 12:19:44 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Medical and retiree benefits are eating the .mil budget alive, not the E-3 on the bottom of the food chain.

What a complete and utter tool.
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Medical costs are paid by the VA for retirees, not DoD.  Retirements are funded through accrual funding (have been since 1986) so those aren't eating the budget alive either.  In fact, personnel costs as a percentage of the DoD budget are the same as they have always been within a couple percentage points.  What is killing the DoD budget is sequestration, and programs like the $1.2T F-35.  They are using the "personnel costs are going up" lie to justify cutting benefits, reducing manpower, and trying to save their pet procurement programs from the budget axe.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 12:35:45 PM EDT
[#21]
People at that level, both Officer and Enlisted, are politicians.

They should be champions of their people to Congress, not champions of Congress to the troops.

I guess this $15/hour nonsense goes both ways, bring people UP to and DOWN to $15/hour.
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 8:21:12 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


As for the purported uselessness of officers, I don't think you know what you are talking about.
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Quoted:
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Never could understand why officers made so much more money than enlisted. Especially junior officers, since they are so fucking useless for the most part.

Looks like the goal is to completely get rid of the military.


As for the purported uselessness of officers, I don't think you know what you are talking about.


Obviously you're a ZERO!    Just to tack this on.....the Officer/Enlisted rank structure is an antiquated system that results in a pure CLASS society.  In that sense the officer corp is useless.  It only presents itself as a more privileged group within a group.   And before you shout "we need a rank structure"... we already have that within the system.  Any higher ranking individual has authority over lower ranking individuals whether they're an officer or enlisted.  You don't need officers and enlisted to accomplish this.    And if you think a college degree makes a difference...well you ARE part of the problem.   Can a degree be used as a discriminator?  Sure!   But it should apply to ALL.
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 10:37:25 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That's not what he said though.  



Really?  The more it sucks, the better it is for the troops?  I guess that is the Marine's motto and modus operandi, make it suck so damn bad nobody wants to stay after their initial enlistment.  Grind them up and spit them out, so they can brag the rest of their lives about how hard and bad they were for four years (not that they had the fortitude to stick around).
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I think what he's saying is less pay will attract less "Free Shit Army" types and more people who just want to be Marines because they just can't fucking imagine not being a Marine. I can't say he's wrong.


That's not what he said though.  

Instead, Barrett argued that the lower quality of life would be beneficial to Marines.


Really?  The more it sucks, the better it is for the troops?  I guess that is the Marine's motto and modus operandi, make it suck so damn bad nobody wants to stay after their initial enlistment.  Grind them up and spit them out, so they can brag the rest of their lives about how hard and bad they were for four years (not that they had the fortitude to stick around).

I fully believe that the USMC leadership thinks that in order to have a better force, they have to treat their people like shit. The quality of life for E3 and below would shock most people from other branches.
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 10:41:58 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I fully believe that the USMC leadership thinks that in order to have a better force, they have to treat their people like shit. The quality of life for E3 and below would shock most people from other branches.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think what he's saying is less pay will attract less "Free Shit Army" types and more people who just want to be Marines because they just can't fucking imagine not being a Marine. I can't say he's wrong.


That's not what he said though.  

Instead, Barrett argued that the lower quality of life would be beneficial to Marines.


Really?  The more it sucks, the better it is for the troops?  I guess that is the Marine's motto and modus operandi, make it suck so damn bad nobody wants to stay after their initial enlistment.  Grind them up and spit them out, so they can brag the rest of their lives about how hard and bad they were for four years (not that they had the fortitude to stick around).

I fully believe that the USMC leadership thinks that in order to have a better force, they have to treat their people like shit. The quality of life for E3 and below would shock most people from other branches.


I've toured junior Marine's barracks.  They had the doors removed from the rooms to cut down on shenanigans.  
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 10:50:00 AM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:
Obviously you're a ZERO!    Just to tack this on.....the Officer/Enlisted rank structure is an antiquated system that results in a pure CLASS society.  In that sense the officer corp is useless.  It only presents itself as a more privileged group within a group.   And before you shout "we need a rank structure"... we already have that within the system.  Any higher ranking individual has authority over lower ranking individuals whether they're an officer or enlisted.  You don't need officers and enlisted to accomplish this.    And if you think a college degree makes a difference...well you ARE part of the problem.   Can a degree be used as a discriminator?  Sure!   But it should apply to ALL.
View Quote


Enlisted leaders focus on leading their subordinates.  Officers integrate units into the bigger piece of the picture.

The training and preparation needed to do both is quite different.

That is why you will find that in many industries outside the military there are almost identical divisions of labor.

Those attributes which make an excellent NCO make a terrible officer, and vice versa.

The problem becomes most apparent after the Company Grade level.
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 10:58:36 AM EDT
[#26]
Does this really come as a surprise in Amos' Marine Corps?
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 10:59:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Enlisted leaders focus on leading their subordinates.  Officers integrate units into the bigger piece of the picture.

The training and preparation needed to do both is quite different.

That is why you will find that in many industries outside the military there are almost identical divisions of labor.

Those attributes which make an excellent NCO make a terrible officer, and vice versa.

The problem becomes most apparent after the Company Grade level.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Obviously you're a ZERO!    Just to tack this on.....the Officer/Enlisted rank structure is an antiquated system that results in a pure CLASS society.  In that sense the officer corp is useless.  It only presents itself as a more privileged group within a group.   And before you shout "we need a rank structure"... we already have that within the system.  Any higher ranking individual has authority over lower ranking individuals whether they're an officer or enlisted.  You don't need officers and enlisted to accomplish this.    And if you think a college degree makes a difference...well you ARE part of the problem.   Can a degree be used as a discriminator?  Sure!   But it should apply to ALL.


Enlisted leaders focus on leading their subordinates.  Officers integrate units into the bigger piece of the picture.

The training and preparation needed to do both is quite different.

That is why you will find that in many industries outside the military there are almost identical divisions of labor.

Those attributes which make an excellent NCO make a terrible officer, and vice versa.

The problem becomes most apparent after the Company Grade level.


I'd love to hear more detail on this point.  Which positive NCO attributes do you think make a "terrible" officer?  

In my career field 60% of our officers are prior Es.  They seem to function just fine, and I've known plenty who made it to O-6 as well.  

Link Posted: 4/11/2014 11:28:15 AM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:


I've toured junior Marine's barracks.  They had the doors removed from the rooms to cut down on shenanigans.  
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think what he's saying is less pay will attract less "Free Shit Army" types and more people who just want to be Marines because they just can't fucking imagine not being a Marine. I can't say he's wrong.


That's not what he said though.  

Instead, Barrett argued that the lower quality of life would be beneficial to Marines.


Really?  The more it sucks, the better it is for the troops?  I guess that is the Marine's motto and modus operandi, make it suck so damn bad nobody wants to stay after their initial enlistment.  Grind them up and spit them out, so they can brag the rest of their lives about how hard and bad they were for four years (not that they had the fortitude to stick around).

I fully believe that the USMC leadership thinks that in order to have a better force, they have to treat their people like shit. The quality of life for E3 and below would shock most people from other branches.


I've toured junior Marine's barracks.  They had the doors removed from the rooms to cut down on shenanigans.  

For about two months starting in August of 2010, everyone in my building slept outside because we didn't have AC.
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 11:38:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Which positive NCO attributes do you think make a "terrible" officer?

In my career field 60% of our officers are prior Es.  They seem to function just fine, and I've known plenty who made it to O-6 as well.
View Quote


NCOs do a great job of executing guidance.  They don't seem to like innovate. That's not an issue when they get good guidance.  

When I was a new PL they'd come to me all the time asking for guidance and I'd tell them to do whatever they normally do.  They were asking for permission to do their jobs.

Officers that need guidance and permission make life miserable for everyone around them.  Officers that focus on the things that they've always done, or who short change long term planning because they like to live in the moment don't typically get results.

For that matter, the kind of planning that NCOs do and the kind that officers do is very different.  In my experience, officers plan things to a much greater level of detail and NCOs count on being able to make it happen.  Which they are often able to do. But not always.

Almost all of my Commander's at the company level were prior service.  

I have no idea what the USAF is like.
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 11:43:02 AM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:
Logical conclusion: if less pay raises morale, would they not be super-loyal if we stop paying them at all?

What does that Sergeant-Major take home? Would he be  a better NCO if he worked for free?
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According to his statement, the pinnacle of discipline is working without pay.  Therefore, if we want to make him a better NCO, he should do it gratis.  Hell, he should have to pay for the privilege.
Link Posted: 4/14/2014 6:05:19 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



the ONLY part I'll agree with... just a little. Doesn't mean cut pay it means hold a fucking standard and boot the assholes who don't meet it

start taking money from Jr Marines and discipline and morale go down the shitter -  not up... I don't care how good your NCO/SNCO's are - who are also losing money.

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Quoted:
“In my 33 years, we’ve never had a better quality of life,” Barrett said. “We’ve never had it so good. If we don’t get ahold of slowing the growth, we will become an entitlement-based, a health care provider-based Corps, and not a war fighting organization.”



the ONLY part I'll agree with... just a little. Doesn't mean cut pay it means hold a fucking standard and boot the assholes who don't meet it

start taking money from Jr Marines and discipline and morale go down the shitter -  not up... I don't care how good your NCO/SNCO's are - who are also losing money.



Agreed. Also good luck at keeping retention.
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 3:48:28 AM EDT
[#32]
In my opinion, most of the E-9s at senior levels are huge Uncle Toms. You cant get that high unless you put yes maning to Generals over the welfare of the enlisted men you are supposed to represent and advocate for.
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 4:10:44 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Enlisted leaders focus on leading their subordinates.  Officers integrate units into the bigger piece of the picture.

The training and preparation needed to do both is quite different.

That is why you will find that in many industries outside the military there are almost identical divisions of labor.

Those attributes which make an excellent NCO make a terrible officer, and vice versa.

The problem becomes most apparent after the Company Grade level.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Obviously you're a ZERO!    Just to tack this on.....the Officer/Enlisted rank structure is an antiquated system that results in a pure CLASS society.  In that sense the officer corp is useless.  It only presents itself as a more privileged group within a group.   And before you shout "we need a rank structure"... we already have that within the system.  Any higher ranking individual has authority over lower ranking individuals whether they're an officer or enlisted.  You don't need officers and enlisted to accomplish this.    And if you think a college degree makes a difference...well you ARE part of the problem.   Can a degree be used as a discriminator?  Sure!   But it should apply to ALL.


Enlisted leaders focus on leading their subordinates.  Officers integrate units into the bigger piece of the picture.

The training and preparation needed to do both is quite different.

That is why you will find that in many industries outside the military there are almost identical divisions of labor.

Those attributes which make an excellent NCO make a terrible officer, and vice versa.

The problem becomes most apparent after the Company Grade level.




I see you've elaborated on this already, so I'll just laugh again.

The next time I ask an officer for permission to do something I'll...  Oh wait.  I haven't asked an officer for permission to do something for over a decade, since I put on Anchors.  You don't even have the perspective to understand what they were doing to you, and it had nothing to do with whether or not they could do their job.  The "Sir, can we... " is a polite hint to you as to what needs to be done, giving you the opportunity to either watch and learn or provide your own perspective if you so desire, since you will be, after all, responsible for the outcome whether you like it or not or whether they told you about it or not.

I'm smarter and better educated than almost every officer I've worked for at any point in the last decade.

And as a JO with a couple of years in, I don't think you've got the perspective to comment on what makes either an excellent NCO or a terrible officer, or how the two are related.  Nearly every officer in my field is former enlisted, almost all former senior NCOs, and those who are not are essentially never successful.
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 11:01:39 AM EDT
[#34]
If you say so, Chief. Last month I had a LTC tell me (and he wasn't the first) that I got fucked by being put into units and situations that fell so far outside the norm for the Army that I was unqualified to speak on the subject.

It's enough to leave a guy bitter after five years of fixing problems for people that can't be bothered to do their jobs.





Link Posted: 4/16/2014 1:27:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




I see you've elaborated on this already, so I'll just laugh again.

The next time I ask an officer for permission to do something I'll...  Oh wait.  I haven't asked an officer for permission to do something for over a decade, since I put on Anchors.  You don't even have the perspective to understand what they were doing to you, and it had nothing to do with whether or not they could do their job.  The "Sir, can we... " is a polite hint to you as to what needs to be done, giving you the opportunity to either watch and learn or provide your own perspective if you so desire, since you will be, after all, responsible for the outcome whether you like it or not or whether they told you about it or not.

I'm smarter and better educated than almost every officer I've worked for at any point in the last decade.

And as a JO with a couple of years in, I don't think you've got the perspective to comment on what makes either an excellent NCO or a terrible officer, or how the two are related.  Nearly every officer in my field is former enlisted, almost all former senior NCOs, and those who are not are essentially never successful.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Enlisted leaders focus on leading their subordinates.  Officers integrate units into the bigger piece of the picture.

The training and preparation needed to do both is quite different.

That is why you will find that in many industries outside the military there are almost identical divisions of labor.

Those attributes which make an excellent NCO make a terrible officer, and vice versa.

The problem becomes most apparent after the Company Grade level.




I see you've elaborated on this already, so I'll just laugh again.

The next time I ask an officer for permission to do something I'll...  Oh wait.  I haven't asked an officer for permission to do something for over a decade, since I put on Anchors.  You don't even have the perspective to understand what they were doing to you, and it had nothing to do with whether or not they could do their job.  The "Sir, can we... " is a polite hint to you as to what needs to be done, giving you the opportunity to either watch and learn or provide your own perspective if you so desire, since you will be, after all, responsible for the outcome whether you like it or not or whether they told you about it or not.

I'm smarter and better educated than almost every officer I've worked for at any point in the last decade.

And as a JO with a couple of years in, I don't think you've got the perspective to comment on what makes either an excellent NCO or a terrible officer, or how the two are related.  Nearly every officer in my field is former enlisted, almost all former senior NCOs, and those who are not are essentially never successful.


I'm not seeing how what combat jack wrote was laughably funny or incorrect, or disrespectful of NCOs.  As you stated, officers are ultimately responsible for mission accomplishment.  When an O-5 makes every decision based on troop welfare or biased towards one particular task because that's the only perspective they know, the mission will suffer.  You have to both accomplish the mission and take care of your people and NCOs are part of that equation; trusted to be a trainer and sanity check.  It's just a little disingenuous to state an officer won't be successful unless he's a prior NCO (or so weak he just rubber-stamps his NCO's decisions).
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 1:29:40 PM EDT
[#36]
You know you will not lose a dime, what they take away you can make up with your EBT card you will qualify for!

Enlisted service members are greatly under appreciated!
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 2:24:01 PM EDT
[#37]

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The

It has a lot to do with getting people to join.



As for the purported uselessness of officers, I don't think you know what you are talking about.
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Never could understand why officers made so much more money than enlisted. Especially junior officers, since they are so fucking useless for the most part.



Looks like the goal is to completely get rid of the military.


The

It has a lot to do with getting people to join.



As for the purported uselessness of officers, I don't think you know what you are talking about.


You've obviously never spent much time around Ensigns and JGs.  Don't make assumptions about my experience.



 
Link Posted: 4/17/2014 2:14:57 AM EDT
[#38]
Maybe the idiotic DoD should stop encouraging every new dumbfuck boot to go out and get married as soon as they get to their first duty station.  Absolutely worthless fucking dependents are the problem here.
Link Posted: 4/17/2014 2:22:50 AM EDT
[#39]
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Maybe the idiotic DoD should stop encouraging every new dumbfuck boot to go out and get married as soon as they get to their first duty station.  Absolutely worthless fucking dependents are the problem here.
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+87
Link Posted: 4/17/2014 3:27:26 AM EDT
[#40]
Also no single parents should be allowed to enlist.
Link Posted: 4/17/2014 3:32:08 AM EDT
[#41]
Cut their [higher up's]  pay significantly and do away with Officer housing. Also, cut their retirement pay by 50%.

FWIW, there is a reason I didn't say "I do" while I was in and it wasn't due to the lack of comely females. Saw WAY to much stupidity with young GI's and their wives.
Link Posted: 4/17/2014 3:45:54 AM EDT
[#42]
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I'm not seeing how what combat jack wrote was laughably funny or incorrect, or disrespectful of NCOs.  As you stated, officers are ultimately responsible for mission accomplishment.  When an O-5 makes every decision based on troop welfare or biased towards one particular task because that's the only perspective they know, the mission will suffer.  You have to both accomplish the mission and take care of your people and NCOs are part of that equation; trusted to be a trainer and sanity check.  It's just a little disingenuous to state an officer won't be successful unless he's a prior NCO (or so weak he just rubber-stamps his NCO's decisions).
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Enlisted leaders focus on leading their subordinates.  Officers integrate units into the bigger piece of the picture.

The training and preparation needed to do both is quite different.

That is why you will find that in many industries outside the military there are almost identical divisions of labor.

Those attributes which make an excellent NCO make a terrible officer, and vice versa.

The problem becomes most apparent after the Company Grade level.




I see you've elaborated on this already, so I'll just laugh again.

The next time I ask an officer for permission to do something I'll...  Oh wait.  I haven't asked an officer for permission to do something for over a decade, since I put on Anchors.  You don't even have the perspective to understand what they were doing to you, and it had nothing to do with whether or not they could do their job.  The "Sir, can we... " is a polite hint to you as to what needs to be done, giving you the opportunity to either watch and learn or provide your own perspective if you so desire, since you will be, after all, responsible for the outcome whether you like it or not or whether they told you about it or not.

I'm smarter and better educated than almost every officer I've worked for at any point in the last decade.

And as a JO with a couple of years in, I don't think you've got the perspective to comment on what makes either an excellent NCO or a terrible officer, or how the two are related.  Nearly every officer in my field is former enlisted, almost all former senior NCOs, and those who are not are essentially never successful.


I'm not seeing how what combat jack wrote was laughably funny or incorrect, or disrespectful of NCOs.  As you stated, officers are ultimately responsible for mission accomplishment.  When an O-5 makes every decision based on troop welfare or biased towards one particular task because that's the only perspective they know, the mission will suffer.  You have to both accomplish the mission and take care of your people and NCOs are part of that equation; trusted to be a trainer and sanity check.  It's just a little disingenuous to state an officer won't be successful unless he's a prior NCO (or so weak he just rubber-stamps his NCO's decisions).


It's the general concept of someone who has been a JO for a couple of years completely misunderstanding the relationship between NCO and officer and pontificating about it -- he does it regularly.

I was talking about one specific field that is populated almost exclusively with LDOs in my last comment if you read carefully, and I never suggested an officer should simply rubber-stamp anything.
Link Posted: 4/17/2014 4:43:14 AM EDT
[#43]
So you are essentially looking at your organization, without accounting for the differences present in other units or services and extrapolating that to the rest of the uniformed services?

Does that not illustrate my point?
Link Posted: 4/17/2014 6:14:03 AM EDT
[#44]
This makes about as much sense as telling someone to "stop fucking swearing."  

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You've obviously never spent much time around Ensigns and JGs.  Don't make assumptions about my experience.
 
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Never could understand why officers made so much more money than enlisted. Especially junior officers, since they are so fucking useless for the most part.

Looks like the goal is to completely get rid of the military.

The
It has a lot to do with getting people to join.

As for the purported uselessness of officers, I don't think you know what you are talking about.

You've obviously never spent much time around Ensigns and JGs.  Don't make assumptions about my experience.
 

Link Posted: 4/17/2014 7:23:51 AM EDT
[#45]
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So you are essentially looking at your organization, without accounting for the differences present in other units or services and extrapolating that to the rest of the uniformed services?

Does that not illustrate my point?
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No, I'm not.

I have a significant amount of experience with other branches of the military, particularly the Army.

Link Posted: 4/18/2014 10:53:17 AM EDT
[#46]
Shit like this makes me glad I did not reenlist again. Barrett is just like Amos, ass-kissing political lackeys to the Obama administration. It really looks like this and the "reawakening" is their strategy to reach drawdown numbers, by treating Marines like shit and making them want to EAS.  Im not in the Army but SMA Chandler seems just as bad if not worse.
If they want to save money, maybe we should start with the E9s, especially the worthless uniform nazis standing post at the DFACs overseas.
Link Posted: 4/18/2014 2:13:26 PM EDT
[#47]
E-9's with over 26 yrs of service have a base pay of around $6400/month, +/-.  This does not include seperate rations, housing allowance, or other godies.  It's stupid for a E9 of any branch make the statement that this ass clown did....hell, his lower ranking enlisted and junior level NCO's would appreciate a big raise.  I know E9's now who were E6 rank when I retired as a E7 back in 2003, and I sometimes wonder what the hell the military has come to.  Was that all they had to choose to promote?  Rant off....
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 4:39:25 PM EDT
[#48]
Getting rid of anybody's on-post housing option is as sensible as cutting pay and that's regardless of rank.  As a SNCO turned WO I've lost money on two houses over the years due to PCS moves.  Had equity in both until housing market dumped on one and a shortened assignment on the other.  That's not an O problem, it's an EVERYONE problem.  

With privatized on-post housing the way it is these days, it allows people to live in a decent place without losing money on selling a house when PCSing.  All of this US vs. THEM shit is dumb anyway since it's really guys in DC who are the issue...

ETA: This is in response to the previous comment to get rid of O housing.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 12:02:36 PM EDT
[#49]


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Obviously you're a ZERO!    Just to tack this on.....the Officer/Enlisted rank structure is an antiquated system that results in a pure CLASS society.  In that sense the officer corp is useless.  It only presents itself as a more privileged group within a group.   And before you shout "we need a rank structure"... we already have that within the system.  Any higher ranking individual has authority over lower ranking individuals whether they're an officer or enlisted.  You don't need officers and enlisted to accomplish this.    And if you think a college degree makes a difference...well you ARE part of the problem.   Can a degree be used as a discriminator?  Sure!   But it should apply to ALL.


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Never could understand why officers made so much more money than enlisted. Especially junior officers, since they are so fucking useless for the most part.





Looks like the goal is to completely get rid of the military.






As for the purported uselessness of officers, I don't think you know what you are talking about.






Obviously you're a ZERO!    Just to tack this on.....the Officer/Enlisted rank structure is an antiquated system that results in a pure CLASS society.  In that sense the officer corp is useless.  It only presents itself as a more privileged group within a group.   And before you shout "we need a rank structure"... we already have that within the system.  Any higher ranking individual has authority over lower ranking individuals whether they're an officer or enlisted.  You don't need officers and enlisted to accomplish this.    And if you think a college degree makes a difference...well you ARE part of the problem.   Can a degree be used as a discriminator?  Sure!   But it should apply to ALL.





If you think the white-collar/blue-collar distinction doesn't exist in the civillian world, well...





(The officer/enlisted split replicates this reality in the .mil)





 
Link Posted: 5/23/2014 12:41:39 AM EDT
[#50]
SgtMaj Barrett wasn't all wrong.  But, he needs to look bigger picture.  

The growth of retired servicemembers (usually senior officers and SNCOs) who create a civilian position in their organization and then retire and return to fill that position is staggering.  We have a BUNCH of retired officers and SgtMaj types who are doing some do nothing civilian job in the DOD while also collecting their retirement pay.  They then have to justify their existence by creating new programs that cost mega bucks (suicide awareness anyone?).   Go to the regimental level and higher and you'll see what I mean.

What do you think SgtMaj Barrett will do when he retires?  If he doesn't come back to work in some civilian job in DOD, I'd be shocked.  Many of them do. That's part of the reason that the civilian employee rolls have become so bloated within DOD.  We have a servicemember AND a civilian or three doing the same job that one servicemember used to do.  

Chop the civilian rolls, freeze the highest rank pay, force a bunch of the do nothing officers (colonels are frequently the worst offenders) and SNCOs to retire, and leave the E-3s and below alone.  That'll go a long way to fixing some of DOD's finances.  

The only civilians who should be kept are the ones who are true geniuses in their field.  All the old retirees need to go.  

I retire from the reserves in a couple years and I will have nothing to do with DOD once I'm gone.
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