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Posted: 12/31/2001 5:09:48 AM EDT
First post and I've got a question for the Law enforcement community. I have noticed fewer shotguns and more light carbines equipping patrol vehicles of late and wondered about your thoughts on this trend. Could you describe your ideal "Patrol Carbine". I'm especially keen on knowing what you find deficient in currently issued equipment and what you'd like to see issued. I know that translates largely as M4s or M4 clones. If at all possible, try to describe your needs relative to your operational environment (e.g. rural, urban, etc.). Thank you greatly; your input is appreciated.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 5:29:02 AM EDT
16" AR-15 Semi-Auto (NOT Full-auto capable because that's not good for Patrol use), Milenium light, EO-Tech or other holo sight, Detachable carry handle, Optional redi-mag, I especially like the Rock River Star safety (easy to operate with gloves) & NM trigger (very smooth)
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 5:40:02 AM EDT
Since your question refers to a patrol carbine then I'll interpret patrol,as meaning general patrol duties as first responding officer. For me , my optimal patrol carbine would be an M-1 Garand "tanker" in a scout configuration with an optical sight that can be used in daylight and low light, a flash suppressor and synthetic stock. Caliber would be 7.62 NATO. I would have clips loaded with various types of ammo for various situations. This is my choice because It is a reliable proven design can be abused and still function, is not prone to failure due to bad/abused magazines and has unquestionably effective stopping power and range. I don't feel the need for select fire for general patrol duties. Using the North Hollywood bank shoot out as an example; a few officers with semi auto rifles in .308 from behind cover would have had that situation in hand within seconds of their arrival. I don't choose to have a tac light or laser because if I'm working that close I still prefer a shotgun. In a perfect world that would be my choice for a patrol carbine. Simple, rugged, effective.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 6:20:11 AM EDT
As we are allowed to carry personally owned weapons if we meet the requirements I aquired what is for me the perfect patrol carbine. It started life as a Colt 16" with collapsible stock. It ended up with a flat top, ARM's flip up site, Aimpoint, tritium front post, Surefire M-500, and side sling swivels. I keep a 30 in it with soft points and use rubber bands to connect a 20 with SS109's to the stock. I work in a very rural county. I still have a shotgun as well.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 6:31:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2001 6:33:07 AM EDT by natez]
Optimum rifle: A Colt or BM 16" 1/9 carbine. 4-pos stock. Non-detachable carry handle. A2 sights. Surefire Millenium light. Tac sling. Mag cinch for two 30s. EO Tech Holosight. What I carry: Colt M16A2 carbine (14.5" 1/7). 2-pos stock. Non-detachable carry handle. A1 sights (with the rear aperture switched with a large hole aperture). Ancient Surfire light (but it works, with some help). Tac sling. Mag cinch for two 30s. EO Tech Holosight (for T&E; I do the purchase order for the rest of them this week). edited to add that I am trying to talk my armorer into drilling another hole in my buttstock so I can collapse it about two more inches for tactical body armor.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 6:58:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 11:23:45 AM EDT
Bushmaster M-4 A-3 14.5 with phantom F/S, green furniture to break up the outline, rear flip up KAC 600m for back up and TA01NSN mounted on throw lever mount with tactical taylor sling with 20 round mags two with TAP rounds and 1 with SS109 should handle most situations, my city is built up not many places for a 200 yard shot.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 8:35:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 8:52:48 AM EDT
Bushmaster Dissipator with white light and a spare mag located somewhere on the weapon.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:21:22 AM EDT
Now that you guys are on the topic, I want to configure my Armalite M15A4(t) to be a better SHTF weapon. This is how it is configured now: [img]http://www.armalite.com/shared/images/m15a4t_245.gif[/img] The scope is a Bushnell 6-18x 50mm elite model on a B-square detatchable mount...any thoughts would be helpful. Thanx!
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:59:54 AM EDT
I'd like a 14.5" AR-15 with an A2 or Phantom FH. A1 sized fixed stock, A1 upper with an A2 sight and a Tritium front sight post. Add some type of white light system. I don't know which sling I'd choose, there are arguments for either the carry sling or a tac sling. This carbine should be relatively inexpensive and reliable enough to withstand bouncing around in a cruiser. If the department issues a 14.5" bbl and it should get stolen the perp would be in bigger doodoo for possessing the sbr than for the theft. [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 12:06:32 PM EDT
A1 stock. C7 upper with A2 rear sight aperature and Tritium front sight post. 16" pencil thin chrome lined 1:9 brl. M16A2 compensator. Surefire M500A taclight. 20 round mag in rifle. 30 round mag in Eagle industries M16 stock pouch, connected to right side of stock.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 12:17:36 PM EDT
No fair! AR15fan copied off my paper, kinda. [:)] He's right the C7 upper makes more sense. I'd also like to see a fixed stock with a hollow in the toe area to hold a spare twenty round magazine in a horizontal position.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 3:17:00 PM EDT
I do agree that A1 sights are much more "grunt-proof" than A1 sights, but the A2 large aperture is much, much better for CQB. I do not personally see much need for scopes in LE unless you are in avery rural setting. My agency's take on it is that a person beyond about 100 yards is rarely going to pose a deadly force threat, and you are going to lack the ability to get a precision hit, anyway. 100 plus shots generally should not be taken, and a scope is just something else to get in the way for CQB. From 7-100 yards, an AR with iron sights (or a holo or reflex sight) is darned near unbeatable. Beyond that, you are going to have a difficult time articulating to the Grand Jury why you needed to use dealy force, or why you fired when you could not be sure of getting a hit.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 12:55:29 PM EDT
I'd think at 100 yards, the scenario would be the bad guy being a threat to someone else close to the bad guy, not to you. Rare, but it does happen.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 11:58:35 AM EDT
What I carry: Fixed stock, 20" HB, Giles sling, tritium F/R sights, TacStar light w/pressure switch, 20rd w/MagPul What I want: Fixed stock, 16" LWB, Ashly F/R, Surefire Millenium light w/new clickie switch, GemTech Pirahna suppressor (for indoors), ACOG TA31, Aimpoint, US Optics SN4 or EoTech, sling, KAC RAS, single stage match trigger I'd settle for the 16" w/a decent light and decent optics - all else is gravy. I wish departments would be a little more flexible and allow officers to carry personal guns, configured how they like them/train with them. Might keep costs down too. Oh, spare mag on the duty belt. I never developed the taste for hanging an extra one on the gun :)
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:11:25 AM EDT
NOT Full-auto capable because that's not good for Patrol use. If you don't trust your guys then its not good but if you have good guys then its a good thing. I like my set up . I have a 16 inch leo colt with a 1/7 heavy barrel with a collapsable stock, Eotech holo sight, surefire millenium light (250 500 model brightest) back up iron sights from arms, Giles sling, butt stock mag pouch, with ergo grips. As for the shotgun its good for breaching doors, less lethal applications and killing large game with slugs and thats it. PAT
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:15:29 AM EDT
would be an M-1 Garand "tanker" in a scout configuration with an optical sight that can be used in daylight and low light, a flash suppressor and synthetic stock. Caliber would be 7.62 NATO. I would have clips loaded with various types of ammo for various situations. This is my choice because It is a reliable proven design can be abused and still function, is not prone to failure due to bad/abused magazines and has unquestionably effective stopping power and range. End quote You can't be serious. Please a 8 shot military antiquity as a patrol gun no thanks. The 3006 is over penetitrates and offers no stopping power advantage over a 223 soft point inside 150 yards. As for the mags simpy use good mags and you will be fine. Practice with practice mags and use duty mags for duty. Wait next you will be telling me the ultimate patrol carbine is a flint lock. PAT
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:17:14 AM EDT
a few officers with semi auto rifles in .308 from behind cover would have had that situation in hand within seconds of their arrival. End quote A few officers with 223 could have done the same. Heck if they were allowed to have slugs in their shotguns it would have ended early too. PAT
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:22:19 AM EDT
There are many advantages to a carbine as well as a shotgun in police patrol work. The shotgun offers great stopping power potential of putting multiple projectiles on the intended target at once. The shotgun also offers the versatility a many types of ammo resulting in a multitude of uses such as breaching, precision and maximum penetration of slugs, birdshot, gas and oc type ferret rounds, gas and oc muzzle blast dispersion rounds, etc. The shotgun should not be replaced, imho, it is becoming more of a specialty weapon in the police arsenal. The shotgun as you said is a speciality weapon your breaher needs one. They are good for less lethal and for killing bears here in Alaska with slugs and thats about the end of their usfullness. They have no more stopping power than a good 223 softpoint load however with buckshot. SLugs are arguably better however but not by much. PAT
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:01:57 AM EDT
Glockfan, I'm not going to get into an arguement over preferences in weapons with you but since you felt the need to respond to my choice with three posts I'll say this. After reading your responses I noticed that they are full of ignorance, misinformation and contradictions. You are clearly impressed by gadgets and I get the feeling you see your weapons as cool toys rather than tools of the trade. Many police depatments only allow dept issue weapons to be used on duty. That means patrol weapons normally stay in the car until the rare occassion that they are actually needed. That means that they are negelected. That means that they must be nearly maintenance free. That means a design that can be abused, neglected and function very dirty. That means a pump shotgun or an M-1 based action if you want a semi auto(the public would never allow an AK in a police dept arsenal). That doesn't mean an M-16 based weapon with all sorts of gadgets. If your allowed to have your personal weapon and take it home and maintain it properly then your choice is a good choice if not a little over done for general patrol work in my opinion. Try getting some experience with a variety of weapons(a little police experience might help too) and think about real world general police patrol needs and not your ultimate fire fight fantasies. Don't expect me to go back and forth on this with you. I've already devoted more time and effort than it is worth.
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