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Posted: 12/27/2001 2:32:12 PM EDT
Had a gunshot victim last week, the shooter was presumeable still around the premises and although the perimeter was sealed by LEO's they were not able to find him or the weapon. All LEO's were in bodyarmour and while carrying the man to our ambulance it suddenly struck me what to do when the shooter returns to finish up things. It got me thinking and found out more of my colllegues are doing the same, has the time come for EMS to have bodyarmour as a standard in their kit. Are there any EMT's/Paramedics who have been provided with bodyarmour. If so what did you look at, Level II, Level III. Or did you find antistabbing fibres more important and went with something completely else. Kuiper
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 2:54:32 PM EDT
My agency gave all of its old vests (a few hundred) to local firefighters and EMS. It sounds like a good idea to have one, too me. I would recommend talking to your local PS/SO guys and see what kind of threats they run into most often and what body armor works best for them in your climate. Get several opinions, decide on what you need to deal with the most likely weapons for your area, and then go to a LE supply store, and get fitted by someone who is trained to fit vests.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 3:35:14 PM EDT
Kuiper, In the later 80s early 90s I worked EMS part time for a 911 service in a large city. They encouraged body armor especially on the night shift, but didn't provide it. A lot of the EMT-Ps went out and we got our own. I wore mine whenever I was assigned to certain stations, especially on overnight tours. We often found ourselves very close to the police and very close to the action. I encourage all EMS/FFs and of course LEOs to wear body armor. It can also help protect you in an accident.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 5:58:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2001 6:00:14 PM EDT by Pthfndr]
Not LEO or EMT, but I would think as an EMT you would want to wear not only body armor, but a cup [:)], for those who are violent or unstable due to narcotics or alcohol and might try to get in a lick if not securely restrained. I know the USMC issue armor the reserves gave my son is only supposed to be flak/shrapnel protection but in impromtu tests from 40 feet it prevented penetration by 9mm FMJ out of a Beretta 92fs. And those things are readily available as cheap surplus. Would probably leave a good bruise but that beats a hole in your back or chest.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 7:52:51 PM EDT
Get body armor now. Ask the local cops what company they contract with, and see if they'll discount one for you. As an aside, bad guys don't differentiate between firefighters/EMS and police. if its a uniform, it's the enemy to them. Our EMS folks actually have a personal assault rate about the same as the police dept.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 10:34:07 PM EDT
The FDNY issues Point Blank IIIa to us. available as an option is an over the shirt carrier at $100 extra. I have worked out there for a while, and I havent worn a vest since the wild wild west days of the early '90's
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:55:32 AM EDT
I say if you have access to armor, wear it.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 9:01:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Waverunner: I say if you have access to armor, wear it.
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Tragically, I dont do alot of things that are good for me either. [BD]
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 9:12:10 AM EDT
Used to work in Kansas City, MO, and it was an option to purchase body armor. I recall that the company would pay a certain percentage of the cost of vest, they would also let you deduct it from your paycheck every two weeks. The bulk of the people who wore them worked night shifts, and they wore them more so for protection from blunt trauma (ie. combative patients), but we also carried 3 D cell mag lights, also when we worked. The vest were mainly Level II with a hard trauma plate. I would suggest a vest if your working in an inner city environment, only because the LEO's have enough problems protecting themselves, you need to take precautions for your crew safety also.[thinking]
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 10:41:43 AM EDT
As a side note, Congress just added corrections agencies and agencies employing corrections officers to the Bureau of Justice Affairs body armor grant program. Congress also renewed the program and doubled the amount of money available. While this doesn't directly help EMS and firefighters, it does make it easier for cash-strapped agencies to get body armor for their employees. This program typically pays half of the cost of new body armor and is a very good deal. You can get more information at: [url] http://vests.ojp.gov/[/url].
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 8:33:02 PM EDT
A lot of the local guys are slowly getting vests for them. I think they should wear them
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 5:35:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LtMac313:
Originally Posted By Waverunner: I say if you have access to armor, wear it.
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Tragically, I dont do alot of things that are good for me either. [BD]
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I forgot to mention that you should also take vitamins and get at least 8 hours of sleep a day[whacko]
Link Posted: 12/30/2001 7:32:34 PM EDT
I havent worn a vest since the wild wild west days of the early '90's
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Heehee [:D]
Link Posted: 12/30/2001 8:01:39 PM EDT
Like Lt Mac said FDNY gives 'em now, but that is with in the last few years. While I was there they didn't. So I laid out the $564 for my own Point Blant Genesis II. And we were lucky enough to not have any Line of Duty deaths until 94 when Chris Prescott from Sta 34 was killed by a drunk driver and his partner Carol Buffa seriously injured in the same accident while placing a patient in their bus.(ambulance for you non NYers) Also one death from a HIV infection transmitted from a patient to and EMS EMT through a torn glove and cut. But, I digress..... I wore it in NYC and I wear it in Nassau County(cupcake land compared to NYC). Just a few weeks ago a perp grabbed a gun from a cop's holster and almost killed her and her partner with it. All over a $48 shoplifting incident. When I was teaching at the Police Academy I always posed this question to new police recruits and medics. "What percentage of calls that you respond to have a gun at the scene?" They think about it. Go back in their minds to other lectures about firearms violence, crime trends and crime stats and make various guesses(usually between %10-%30) about the actual probability about having a firearm in their presence at the scene of a call. Then I tell them %100. You just walked in with one on your hip. Every cop I work with obviously has a weapon on them and it is really easy to get it away from them. The guns are everywhere and body armor is a little extra piece of security. Body armor is also great to the truly biggest threat to a medic's well being, auto accidents. Shock plates and the rest of the body armor offer great protection in an MVA. I always wear mine. Sherm
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 1:23:32 AM EDT
Thanks for the comments guys, a proposition has been forwarded to my chief and I am contemplating buying my own if this comes back negative.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 1:23:36 AM EDT
Thanks for the comments guys, a proposition has been forwarded to my chief and I am contemplating buying my own if this comes back negative.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 1:24:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By palmer:
I havent worn a vest since the wild wild west days of the early '90's
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Heehee [:D]
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Someone who knows of what I speak!!! Nothing like doing 5-6 'good' GSW jobs a night + the run in the mill aideds! I know I should wear my vest...and did on 7/4/01 when I was on patrol alone. I will start again when I go back out on patrol this week...boy talk about guilt!!
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 8:44:49 PM EDT
Hi guys, Couple areas you might want to check out on protective eqip. are government regs. and workman's comp and liability carriers. They're getting a lot more demanding. The LE, EMS, Fire, services have basic regs. to comply with such as DOT, ESDA, Public Health, EPA, Incident Command, OSHA, etc. These hit turnout gear, bloodborne, hazmat, etc., but I think a lot of areas are unknown as well as kicked under the table by city councils and county boards. OHSA says EMPLOYER HAS TO PROVIDE, personal protection equipment to meet hazards which might occur within the workplace. That's anywhere you are. Not only equipment but training is mandated. For example, confined space rescue would apply to fire, ems, Coroner if a death, and LE and Coroner if crime involved. Defensive driving, emergency vehicle driving, and pursuit driving fall under this area appropo to the specific agency. Also in vehicle area, is warning equipment state of the art. Rather than siren with 115 db output, are new rigs and squads equipped with Whelen's new 127 or so db output siren, which makes it louder than a Federal Q. Only pulls 10 amps too. Same with lights, blue and red each lose 70% light output if I remember right. Might want to consider more white and/or yellow. db's are logrythmic, increase OF 3 db doubles the sound output. Don't know about rest of States, but in Il. members of city councils and county boards can be sued as individuals as well as official members. This usually puts some to thinking new equipment expenditures might be worth the investment. Good luck.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 7:14:30 PM EDT
My EMS dept has been issuing body armor for well over 10 years and wearing is optional but encouraged by both the dept and union. We have a choice of either exterior or interior body armor when ordering. My agency responds to numerous incidents in the largest city in New England that would warrant wearing body armor, ie response with bomb squad , numerous calls for stabbings and shootings, accompanying special ops entry team on raids, also responding to requests from federal agencies for EMS support-Secret Service, FBI, ATF, DEA etc. We have been issued all kinds of individual protective equipment over the last two years. At this time we are starting to replace the original issue body armor with newer and lighter units.
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