Ran a medical call last night with a drunk ass that was not fun. No weapons were involved but leos were called.

i have a IIIA under carrier...but i never wear it and honestly i know one EMT who actually wears Armour.

After last night me and my shift partner are looking into it.
Level 3/4 plates under turn out gear hmm, somebody please tell me about comfort and mobility?

I would never want to wear plates under my bunkers.
Where i live leo are first responders to every call we go on.
So they will have us stand by in the area if crazies are being crazy.

Risk vs reward.  We have them, and the only SOG is to wear them on active shooter incidents.  It's your discretion otherwise.  Under bunkers would be a terrible idea in my opinion.  We as the fire department have our own job to do, I'm not going to be very effective on the fireground if I'm seriously worried about getting shot.

I'd say that if you feel the need for a vest or plates, you should probably wait for PD.  The exception being obvious victims that you can recover.

I have a set of infidel that I bought OOP. It's an overt carrier that I keep in the rig and only ever use on domestics or real shitty parts of town. Use it more for stab protection than gunshots after a drunk tourist pulled a knife on me a couple years back.

If you need a plate carrier under turnouts, fuck it. Let it burn.

None issued and none allowed, even personal purchases.
We ride Fire and EMS.

Zero. Frankly I'll take a bullet before I saddle myself with the burden. FWI my dept issues no body armor and risk is part of the job.

Department issued to each person, we must wear it on assaults weapons or not, domestic violence, gang violence, officer discretion.

The only time I felt like we needed it was on a chest pain, that was a result of a verbal domestic, we backed out and waited for PD

I have been on many shootings, I feel pretty safe with 20 plus cops MP5's old days now AR's protecting us.

I don't wear any and can't imagine wearing it while fighting fires . Hot, uncomfortable, flat out sucks. My dept. Is slowly switching to tactical carriers, so I'm probably going to finally use my panels. I've lugged around a plate carrier for several years, and use it for gun calls, etc.

I'm a FF/NREMT... If your SOPs don't require you to stage for PD to secure the scene with any kind of assault/ psychiatric/ penetrating trauma (shooting) suicide attempt etc, and your dispatchers aren't trained to pick up on those kind of calls to recommend you stage for PD, your at the wrong department. Our departments just ordered all FD vests, and IMO its a waste of money. As FF/EMT we should not be going into any kind of active shooter or active hostile scenes. That's what LEO and SWAT are for. Unless FF/EMT active shooter/ or (calls where you would need a vest) training is routinely carried out WITH LEO and FF/EMT are allowed to carry a side arm, FF/EMTs have no business being in that kind of Hot Zone where body armor is needed.

When you say, "that kind of Hot Zone,"  are you implying that there are differing threat levels of "Hot," and that they can always be identified without being on-scene?

It sounds like you believe that violence can be identified and dealt with before ending up in the sutuation at all.  If that is true, then why does ANYONE use armor?

1. When i stated "that kind of Hot Zone" was not implying there are different levels of "Hot" It was intended for the difference in call type. Clearly the Hot Zone of a Hazmat does not require a plated vest. The Hot zone of an electrical hazard does not require that of a level 3 hazmat suit. etc etc etc. We are talking about a Hot Zone that involves the need for Fire/EMS to wear a  plated vest due to an active shooting or risk of a shooting to occur.

2. Your ability to start identifying what your scene is going to look like or could look like should start the moment your dispatched for that call. After all someone has called 911 and gave some kind of an report of whats going on, which is constantly being updated by dispatch notes on your MVT ....

3. Violence can definitely be identified before Fire/EMS arrives, from the caller who is calling 911 and reporting the problem. (unless that said caller is calling in a false report to ambush Fire/EMS directly, which no one could predict, and you wouldn't have had your vest on anyways, because you were not told that this could be a call that required a plated vest.)

4. It is the LEOs job to secure a violent scene. Again, which comes from the dispatcher being trained to identify potential violent calls, and your departments SOPs to stage for PD on such calls.

5. I personally believe that if Fire/EMS need to wear a vest daily or because the call volume of shootings is that high in their area, then its a war zone, and Fire/EMS should have a side arm, be trained in the same tactical class as LEO are, as well as running multi jurisdiction drills with LEO for those kind of calls.

obviously you cant predict everything, but you should never not have an idea of whats going on until your in the middle of it.

Fire/EMS is Fire/EMS not LEOs. Its a false sense of security to slap on a vest and send Fire/EMS into an active shooter type call with a jump bag and no kind of tactical training or self protection. It is a disaster waiting to happen.


hope that clears up your questions....

Hooks in the cab next to the seats would be my suggestion. I feel you on a crowded engine. Rolling everything into on rig becomes a challenge.

I guess first off, big city full time paid department, top 10 busy engine in a rough part of town.

We have vests on all of our medic and ems coordinator's vehicles.  Most sit in the compartment smashed flat or wadded up in a ball.  Very few guys actually look at them or care that they are not stored properly.  SOP is for them to be worn on ALL violent EMS runs, injured in domestic, shooting/stabbing, attempts.  The department is better about making sure the vests are used but as I said when stored wrong they leave a large zone unprotected.  I think they are II or IIIA with stab protection if my memory is correct.

I have my own IIIA overvest that I have started carrying on the engine with me every day (none provided for engines, rescues or ladders).  The world the way it is you never know when ANY scene is going to fall apart and become violent (BLM, cardiac arrest etc).  We have trained for 'active shooter' scenarios and we are definitely in the 'warm zone' plan, medic, engine, ladder it does not matter.  I have no problem with that, that is part of the risk that we assume every day but at the same time I can afford to buy a vest that may save my life.  You are fooling yourself to say that we will never be put in that position and it is just a police matter at that point.  Tell me that if you respond to an active shooter at your kids school that you are going to sit outside and wait for the police to give an 'all clear'.  Doubt it very much.  

Hanging on a hook is not going to be good enough without a little more effort.  What I read from the manufacturer is they should be stored like they were being worn.  At home this was on a hanger with a pillow inside to maintain shape.  Now it is over top of my backpack with misc crap (cold weather gear, dry socks, gloves and t-shirt, few granola bars etc).  And please don't be complacent in a small rural department.  Most places have automatic mutual aid and we even have a state wide mutual aid system in place, we could very well end up 150 miles away in our shift when the great meteor hits, LOL.  We are the ones who are supposed to be ready for anything, do ween NEED a vest to do that?  Nope, but I have been on plenty of chaotic shooting scenes that were anything but secure and I can do something to help me out so I will.

Ohio?

Your department policy sounds remarkably familiar.

I've been thinking about picking up a plate carrier to use on the medic now that we are allowed to use personally owned PPE that is approved by the chief. Those vests we are issued suck! I feel like a damn turtle.

And that would be the smart bet.
OP may benefit from some research on what is killing firefighters.  Firemen need to worry about cancer because they're not wearing their SCBA when they should, and heart attacks because they're fat, not shootings.  LODDs from gunfire wouldn't come close to the top 10 causes and I'd be shocked if it made the top 100.  Only numbers I've been able to find are anecdotal; a statistical zero.  

Any fire department would be wiser to spend that armour money on a peer fitness program, but I'm afraid the bragging rights ("we're so edgey we gotta wear body armour") are too seductive.

And this brings up the point that wearing body armor "at discretion" is about as smart as only carrying your CCW when you're going somewhere you think you may be shot.
The only way body armor is going to be effective if if it's worn on EVERY call.  I hope the weather is always cool and dry where the OP is...

I believe the Turtle effect is from the stab plates in the vest.  It is not that they are bad or under-rated vests, they are just stored poorly which is causing gaps in protection.  I looked into all the particulars once but forget them now but the stab protection is different than the bullet resistance.  An ice pick will go right thru my vest but it will stop a 9mm no problem.

First, proud of you guys for taking your personal safety seriously.

Secondly, storage:

Best way is on a fat, thick hanger, hanging vertically. They can be stowed horizontally, flat, as well. The issue is when they are allowed to pleat or accordion. Aramid-based panels are less susceptible, but the children of saran wrap panels can, potentially, be encouraged to delaminate if the panels are scrunched and left there.

The biggest killer of panels is bleach, followed by the sun, lastly by heat. To reduce degradation, all rated panels are encapsulated in a protective overbarrier. They used to be moisture resistant, then they found out this encouraged bacterial growth and increased degradation.

They even make little pizza box lockable containers for vests. Only thing to worry about there is putting them up sweaty and wet. If not allowed to dry, they can... stink. (shrugs)

This isn't something we talk about a great deal on my side of the fence on open forums, but basically, there are two ratings, one for stab protection and one for bullet resistance.

Bullet resistant vests have some resistance to stab and thrust attacks.
Stab resistant vests have almost no resistance to bullet penetration.

I don't know anything about hybrid vests; one jail I was at had them for the SORT team; they remarked about how uncomfortable and flexless they were.


Also, keep in mind law enforcement and security have just started coming around to the idea of hard protective armor for line troops only recently. You may consider some concealable soft body armor instead. It will protect you from the majority of the most common threats you'll face on calls, and you can even get it in the faux uniform shirt style to make it more comfortable.

I can understand the reticence of fire and ems to embrace armor. On the surface it seems counter intuitive to what you're about. But I'm betting your confidence levels would go up staging for riots, and for working in the more colorful parts of your jurisdictions.

I will share this: armor sucks to wear most days. It is hot, heavy, limits your range of motion, and it gave me what I called 'vest zits'. I have a vest, but rarely wear it now. Too damn hot (i'm fat... your mileage may vary).

My department has IIIa vests but they are only to be used in an active shooter scenario.  So pretty much never as the last time they thought they had an active shooter our wonderful dispatch decided not to notify the FD of what was going on although they did tell the cops.  They are stored somewhere and our captains are supposed to bring them to the scene.  Ideally if we get a SAVE team scenario we will have them but I have my doubts.

I use something similar to this: https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Hanger-Shoulder-Hangers-Natural/dp/B00F9VHVNO/ref=sr_1_61?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1484595097&sr=1-61-spons&keywords=hangers heavy duty&psc=1    (though mine's not that fat) then like I said put an old pillow in it to provide some girth thru the body.  Also found:

http://www.galls.com/underwater-kinetics-super-bc-body-armor-hanger?PMWTNO=000000000002115&PMSRCH=

It's been 4 years but it was what the L.A. Sheriffs wear. I couldn't imagine that under turnouts and your scba over that. We always had LE on our responses and they would hold us out until the scene was safe. We were issued after the L.A. Riots of 92 and a reissue in 2008 maybe.

Pretty sure wearing ballistic armour under turnouts would badly screw the fit of one's turnouts, never mind the likely NFPA violations of what's permitted to be worn under turnouts.  Adds up to a great way to lose workers comp following an injury.