http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/armin-nypd-officers-long-guns-wrong-response-shootings-article-1.2719904

TLDR,

Danny Modell, retired from TTU, claims all a cop needs is heart, and his 9MM to protect him from rifle armed threats.

I've got four little words for you Danny, F O A D.


Here's a description of TTU.  http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/training_nypd/Tactical%20Training%20_.shtml
Mostly HTH Combatives, empty hand tactics.
Never saw them at Rodman's Neck or Avenue X. Don't think they ever taught Rifle or Shotgun for that matter.

His one example of why not describes the assasination of officers Liu and Ramos, shot while sitting in an RMP from a distance of maybe ten feet. They had heart and a 9mm and still died. Maybe if RMPs were armored for real but that is a fantasy.
The five officers lost in Dallas had bigger pistols and still died. Their armor no match for either 7N6 or Wolf 60gr 5.45 x 39 at 10 to 100 yards.

The need for patrol officers to have rifles available on patrol is this; Baton Rouge and Dallas were ambushes at a distance where the average officer is not trained for his service pistol to handle, twenty five yards or more. Body armor on perps is now a fact of life. And if heart and a 9mm were enough, explain SRG and CRC. At that there's a thousand of them at most split between 5 boros and three shifts.

Ask someone in the know how long a Level 4 mobilization takes. While you're at it, tell me how long it takes 8 ESU trucks to respond if you drop #2 World Trade Center on the trucks.

Well, I don't agree 100% with his opinion. Although a long gun or shotgun would not have prevented the deaths of those officers by ambush, having one available would help to take on armed subjects from a distance. There are a lot of officers on foot patrol in NYC, compared to non-urban police departments, so I can see patrolling with a long gun a PITA, but to have one available in a unit with a patrol car would be useful.

Lawmen have had rifles since lawmen and rifles were in the same era.  

Not having rifles at least available is weapons grade retard.

It took Truck 8 twenty minutes to respond to a home invasion we had. The scene was two blocks south of Flushing Ave, about 1/2 mile from their base which is where they were at the time.

You probably interrupted their meal...

 
He is wrong.  But your disagreements with him are also wrong.




It is true that long guns wouldn't matter in ambushes.  He talks about police in the south and west needing them because they #1 work alone and #2 die more.  WTF kind of logic is that?  Once 'Eastern' deaths climb, then it will be okay?  Further, South and West have more PDs that have lone patrolmen covering large distances with help further away.  But life for PD in a large metro area (say Atlanta or Dallas) is going to be about the same, with most differences based on police styles that have developed.




Increasing the number of long guns in trunks in the NYPD (along with increased training) allows officers to engage threats more accurately and from longer distances plus defeats body armor which is becoming more common.  'Active shooter' that is a disturbed individual looking for glory is just one of the elements that might be encountered, and you can't count on them to commit suicide.




However your arguments are flawed.  Your Dallas argument has nothing to do with the presence or absence of long guns in the hands of the officer, and instead revolves on the fact that rifle beats almost all body armor.




Your argument about the distance at which any return fire would take place is correct.  However I'd not hang that on a single incident, but rather all the more ordinary incidents were the greater range AND ACCURACY could be a boon.




Finally, don't see how the extreme anomaly of world trade center plays a part.  Turning to that just makes it seem you are reacting emotionally and anecdotally as opposed to with solid data underlying your stance.  The GENERAL slowness of special units to respond is relevant. That's where your arguments should be originating from.


 

The news today says they're getting helmets and plate carriers that will be kept in the trunks of all vehicles. If they don't issue them to individual officers and just put them in the trunks I see them disappearing in the future.

Really? The average NYPD patrolman doesnt have a rifle option at the least? Hell even we have that, I dont leave home without it.

Im kinda surprised. Only an idiot would make such a statement, "heart and a 9mm". What is he? High?

Nope.
There was a plan put together back in the late '90s IIRC to have at least some guys on every shift with rifles, the rumor was that ESU brass got the plan scrapped.

Thats bad, real bad. Our problem is getting guys to take them out. Its hard to wipe out 125 years of mediocrity and stupidity with firearms. Not just that but with Obama's drones running around with the noose the implication is if you pull a rifle you "want" to get involved in a shoot. Every watch has the watch idiot who will say something stupid when a guy pulls a rifle. Even still.

Boy remember that video of the Dallas cop hiding behind the pillar totally helpless with that pea shooter while the shooter with the rifle just executed him? And thats at pistol range, imagine how helpless you are at 50yrds+.

We're talking about the same department that didn't authorize speed loaders for their revolvers until 1986 when one of their officers was killed while reloading from a dump pouch.

While in ambush, a rifle may not have done the officers any good.  It would even the odds of the responding officers.  Also, in Dallas , didn't the shooter have a vest that defeated the handguns used by the Pd.  
Danny should sit down and keep his opinion to himself

Yes the shooter had a vest. Not just that but by having a 5.56 he had every possible advantage including the most important, confidence. Being on the wrong end of a rifle barrel is much louder then a handgun, you have more rounds, with more energy, and also have the phsycological advantage.

That Dallas copper was both deaf and it looked in shock. Terrible video.

And yeah back in the '80s we had plenty of guys with wheelguns and one dump pouch. We had a guy get killed by a sniper a d everyone ran out of ammo.

That's because once they are removed from the streets, their memory fades on what equipment the men &women require to have a fighting chance. There were lots of discussions after Hollywood Shootout. Some departments followed thru with equipping the troops,while others fell back to the liberal mindset.

Supposedly the reasoning was more of  "That's our job".

Now hold on a minute. Why in the world would LEO's need rifles and body armor in NYC?  With the laws they have in place there, LEO's should need nothing more than a badge.

I love the south, if an officer is out numbered or outgunned the citizens will help them

I'll tell that to that Birmingham Detective who was repeatedly pistol whipped last year in a shopping center parking lot at 11am. Not only did no one help, they took pics of him unconscious on the ground afterwards and then mocked him online.

Similar situations still exist.

I can't believe they aren't armed with some sort of long gun already. It is pretty much a necessary piece of police equipment. And ever since the North Hollywood shootout Rifles as opposed to shotguns are the norm for the American Police Officer. All you have here is another liberal who doesn't understand the risks or the job of a police officer. A handgun is to fight your way to a long gun that's it. It's a defensive weapon. I can understand not equipping every officer but they should at least be trained on them and have access to them should the need arise.

Oh I'm sure they just love the whole SRG thing. The ones I've talked to aren't too thrilled.

Yup. From the few I've spoken to, they really aren't happy with the 2 new units with long arms. Some are okay with it,  others are really not happy.

This is what happens when you have a command staff that hasn't answered a 911 call in over 20 years.  When I came on the job in 05, they were talking about us getting rifles then.  They looked at Remington's 716, nice concept, rifle was junk.  They talked about letting us purchase our own rifle, but that went over like a lead balloon.  They got a grant for $25,000 to purchase some rifles, but swat blew that on ammo and toys for themselves.  So us getting rifles was off the table until three of my people get dead, one of which I watched bleed out and die because we had no rifles, (two shotguns with 00buck)  nor an officer down plan.  What we did have that day, was a naive and out of touch with reality command staff standing around and shiting  their pants.  So three dead officers latter, we get rifles and are able to buy our own rifles.

Unfortunately Dept. Incompetance is often our worst enemy.

Yes, yes they will.  

 

We still keep a plate carrier and helmet, riot shield and stick in each car.  We did inventory this week.  Guess how many were missing?


My team buys their own gear.  I just recently had to trade out helmets because my ass old Peltors rub my head raw during a recent expression of social justice.


Could have got it for free, but Ms Claire McCaskill doesn't want me to have a tank.... or a helmet.


FYI:  We carry AR-15's, 1187's, and two REM 700's.   I love my NYPD brothers and sisters, but MAN is the philosophy there F/U'ed!!!  

This reminds me of a certain supervisor I know.

We get a call of a guy beating the shit out of his girlfriend and threatening to shoot her and anyone that shows up if he hears sirens, and he's a violent asshole said supervisor dealt with 15 years ago before the guy went to prison until like a month or two ago.

Instead of sending 3-4 guys TO THE HOUSE to deal with this clown, he only takes one officer and himself and has another one driving around about a block away in case he runs on foot. Naturally he fights, they can't get a good taser deployment, the guy gets loose of them because he's been smoking crack all fucking day and books it into the woods and we chase him all over the place on foot. Ends up involving a K-9 track and about 12-14 of us total from two agencies before we suspend it and go back to what we were doing because we know he'll be back in a few days. They ended up getting him two days later I think.


Why you would go on patrol or prepare for a known bad situation without giving your people ALL of the tools to be successful and respond with overwhelming force, I'll never understand. If anyone gets hurt in the process the people that made those decisions should burn at the stake and be responsible...

NYC PD   ,1960 or thereabouts. New outdoor range opens practical training for all officers. Emergency Service are  first responders when needed. In addition all Highway and Mounted units are trained as back up "Swat units"  (300 men in Mounted units) War wagons available with Bar,s Thompsons rifles and cases of pistol ammo to be dispatched to the scene of an emergency. the city buys 800  Ithica  M-37 shotguns. More to be ordered. None ever distributed. They were to go to the Sergeants cars first and then to regular Patrol cars as men were trained and      qualified.  Years later officers   are equipped with high capacity semi-auto pistols in 9MM cal. but must use ball ammo ,Eventually they got approval for JHP. Originally swat units were to use ball ammo but the lily livered Liberals that influence Police procedures were convinced that ball ammo can ricochet and hit innocent by standers and all so penetrate the bad guy and hit others. In the 70,s There were many  armed robbery's with some  people shot.They formed a "Stake out Unit  with many successful encounters One officer was engaged in 17 shootouts they were doing a great job but they were disbanded  They were shooting too many minority .s ( Like they had a choice?)  The Liberal politicians that influence Police Department,s are no help to any one. 35 years ago I left town before the door hit me in the butt.  With todays  problems it appears that maybe  that some of those in charge are wising up.

Modern Policing. They give you a hand grenade, pull the pin, and then tell you to hold it until they say when.

A lot of suburban police departments in the Dallas/Ft. Worth metropolitan area have allowed their officers to purchase their own personally owned rifles. There were several shootings that prompted this permissiveness. One of which was a bank robbery crew that operated in the Dallas/Garland/Richardson/Plano area that used what appeared to be automatic weapons. A police cam video aired on local TV back then showed what appeared to be full auto fire through the back windshield of the bank robber's getaway SUV. This combined with the earlier North Hollywood bank robbers, Larry Phillips, Jr. and Emil Matasareanu, who had illegally modified automatic rifles while police had pistols and handguns, finally triggered some brain cells to finally operate in the brains of local police chiefs.