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Posted: 11/11/2015 3:05:21 AM EDT
[#1]
we train and qualify with both and it is up to you which you carry. We however try to have at least one shotgun out each shift. I only carry a rifle and there are a couple guys that carry both.
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Posted: 11/11/2015 3:52:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Does anyone carry both shotgun and rifle in car and train equally on both? Has anyone had/trained on both and switched to just rifle? We carry and train on both but I would like to focus on just rifle and have most cars equipped with just rifles. In my mind the benefits of training patrol on one weapon is much greater than continuing to incorporate shotgun which no one likes to shoot and which no one wants to deploy. I carry a rifle, but have both. |
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Posted: 11/11/2015 5:03:32 AM EDT
[#3]
We issue both and qualify with both.
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Posted: 11/11/2015 7:10:42 AM EDT
[#4]
We were carrying both up til about two months ago
The shotguns have been pulled to be transitioned into limited issue less lethal |
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Posted: 11/11/2015 10:30:29 AM EDT
[#5]
We issue both, if the officer wants a shotgun. Shotguns do still have a purpose.
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Posted: 11/11/2015 11:16:23 AM EDT
[#6]
Everyone in the agency qualifies on shotgun....state mandated. All patrol cars have shotguns. Rifles are an extra class for those that want to attend. Dept issued colt 6920s. Initially some officers were allowed to train and qual on their personal weapons however our new cheif decided he didn't like that ended the program. I carry both shotgun and rifle on patrol. Shotguns have their uses. Especially when it comes to injured deeer, rabid raccoons, etc. policy won't let us use rifles for that. If it's a situation where I need a long gun for barricaded subject or active shooter...rifle comes out. Shotgun would be adequate for most situations as well but I prefer the rifle.
Too me, our shotguns are incredibly under utilized by officers. But that's mostly because of a command staff that is more concerned with how we look then actually how we work. |
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Posted: 11/11/2015 12:14:49 PM EDT
[#7]
The shotgun and the rifle both have purpose. You need to be familiar with the capabilities and ballistics of both and how to use them to your advantage.
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Posted: 11/11/2015 2:45:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We issue both, if the officer wants a shotgun. Shotguns do still have a purpose. And that purpose is? I can think of breaching and animal destruction. Gun cars also have halligan tools and rams. Rifle does everything else better. Our main concern is an active killer and animal destruction is not a major occurrence for us. Our range/training time is compressed as is, I am just thinking it would make more sense to train all rifle and keep firearms instructors and a few others shotgun qualified so we still have that in the tool box if you needed to get it for something. |
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Posted: 11/11/2015 2:49:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Limiting yourself to just a rifle is a BAD idea....
1) Rifles were NEVER added to law enforcement to be used as a replacement for shotguns! Each has different purposes!
2) This has the benefit of putting multiple projectiles out the barrel, with a big punch, at once. Shotguns increase the overall trauma and decrease the requirement on fine accuracy. Accuracy...something that tends to be a little harder to achieve with some officers on range under stress courses of fire. 3) Shotguns are far more versatile: can deploy less lethal, OC, CS or be used to breach a door. 4) It is just as accurate at 50 yards as a rifle, with no worries that the irons are not sighted properly for the shooter or the batteries are dead in laser sight. This has been discussed in depth at ILEETA and the answer is always the same: you need both to be ready and do this job, and if you can only pick one, take the shotgun! I would suggest you do some speaking with your SWAT/ESU/CERT or special team. If you have folks who don't "want" or deploy it, it is because they have not been properly trained on it. If they can't get you the training you or others needs to fix the issue, take the LE NRA shotgun course, because that will fix everyone's line of thinking. If you have folks who don't "like" to shoot it, tell them to grow a set and remember this job is not about comfort or what they like. You are lucky you have both. Make the agency teach you how to use them. |
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Posted: 11/11/2015 3:03:23 PM EDT
[#10]
The patrol rifle has replaced the shotgun at my agency. The green machine breachers are the only shotguns I see these days.
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Posted: 11/11/2015 5:16:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Limiting yourself to just a rifle is a BAD idea.... 1) Rifles were NEVER added to law enforcement to be used as a replacement for shotguns! Each has different purposes! 2) This has the benefit of putting multiple projectiles out the barrel, with a big punch, at once. Shotguns increase the overall trauma and decrease the requirement on fine accuracy. Accuracy...something that tends to be a little harder to achieve with some officers on range under stress courses of fire. 3) Shotguns are far more versatile: can deploy less lethal, OC, CS or be used to breach a door. 4) It is just as accurate at 50 yards as a rifle, with no worries that the irons are not sighted properly for the shooter or the batteries are dead in laser sight. This has been discussed in depth at ILEETA and the answer is always the same: you need both to be ready and do this job, and if you can only pick one, take the shotgun! I would suggest you do some speaking with your SWAT/ESU/CERT or special team. If you have folks who don't "want" or deploy it, it is because they have not been properly trained on it. If they can't get you the training you or others needs to fix the issue, take the LE NRA shotgun course, because that will fix everyone's line of thinking. If you have folks who don't "like" to shoot it, tell them to grow a set and remember this job is not about comfort or what they like. You are lucky you have both. Make the agency teach you how to use them. This sums it up nicely. We run both: AR and 1187 |
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Posted: 11/11/2015 11:09:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And that purpose is? I can think of breaching and animal destruction. Gun cars also have halligan tools and rams. Rifle does everything else better. Our main concern is an active killer and animal destruction is not a major occurrence for us. Our range/training time is compressed as is, I am just thinking it would make more sense to train all rifle and keep firearms instructors and a few others shotgun qualified so we still have that in the tool box if you needed to get it for something. In my rural neck of the woods, where I've never heard of a gun car, and the only halligans I've seen are on firetrucks, the shotgun still has a purpose. We have no SWAT around here (only the state police SRT, with a long response time), and it's just another day on the job to cover the entire county by yourself. Therefore, some of the purposes off the top of my head: 1.) Simply another firearm handy if SHTF 2.) Say, around here, you're able to get another state trooper or two to assist with a call where a shooting may be likely, having one guy with a shotgun simply makes the "team" more well rounded for whatever may happen, such as... 3.) Heavy barricade situations where you may need good penetration and simple destruction of the barrier 4.) Attempting to stop a vehicle 5.) Multiple projectiles with each pull of the trigger 6.) I said above, my AO is rural. Very rural. Not uncommon to have to put down animals. Sometimes very large animals. Sometimes very small animals. The shotgun is versatile in that you can dispatch a nuisance chicken with birdshot (happened in my AO), or a very large and angry bull. A local officer tried to dispatch a large cow with his AR one night and the cow soaked up numerous (think 10+) rounds, with multiple head shots, and refused to die, though it eventually did. 7.) etc. We had an OIS here a few years back where one of the firing officers used a shotgun. I have a coworker who says in his previous agency, he used a shotgun in an OIS. Sometimes the situation calls for a higher dose of lead. YMMV |
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Posted: 11/12/2015 5:00:26 AM EDT
[#13]
All patrol units have both a patrol rifle and an 870 in the car. All non uniform patrol such as detectives have an 870. The shotgun is horribly neglected. Most new deputies coming on board now a days have no hunting background, and the shotgun scares them. They are usually marginally more competent with the rifle, so we spend our precious little training time focusing on the rifle. Like many cops, not many at my agency will go to the range on their own time and dime, but some do.
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Posted: 11/12/2015 6:20:13 AM EDT
[#14]
Personally owned rifle and agency 870 in my car. I feel my rifle, with the red dot and weapon-mounted light and greater range, is an important tool but it isn't everything.
The shot gun has many uses, as has already been discussed here. One I haven't seen mentioned is that in our somewhat poor rural county, not all patrol units even have long guns, due to money issues, or that some cops simply check it out of the armory. Having a second long gun to pass out to a backup unit can be helpful. "Here, take this and watch my back" |
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Posted: 11/12/2015 9:35:30 AM EDT
[#15]
I carry both a personal LMT patrol rifle and an 870. Many here only carry the rifle. I choose both for a lot of the above reasons above including having a second long gun for when we might be doubled up. I've also got a lot of large animals around my AO. Since not every department has the 3 day rifle class, our agency's only policy statement on the matter is that staff must have one long gun available. As a FI, I'm torn. No one gets enough training to achieve much more than the minimum competency with any of our weapons. This is even more so with the shotgun. I honestly wouldn't mind shelving the shotguns if it meant double the AR training time (but I know it wouldn't work like that). Also, we are agency mandated to train with frangible ammo and 12 gauge frang is expensive as hell. |
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Posted: 11/12/2015 10:04:55 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a FI, I'm torn. No one gets enough training to achieve much more than the minimum competency with any of our weapons. This is even more so with the shotgun. I honestly wouldn't mind shelving the shotguns if it meant double the AR training time (but I know it wouldn't work like that). Also, we are agency mandated to train with frangible ammo and 12 gauge frang is expensive as hell. One benefit to us no longer issuing shotguns was that we were able to put together a fall training program that gives us more trigger time on the rifles than in any previous year I agree that peoples lack of intimate familiarity with their weapons is an issue. |
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Posted: 11/12/2015 1:32:28 PM EDT
[#17]
In my opinion shotguns are only useful for three things. 1. Less Lethal. 2. Breaching. 3. Animals.
Its a larger, heavier, more awkward weapon system that carries less rounds in it and its harder to carry more rounds on your person. A good shot with a shotgun can be very accurate however I think if you do any amount of testing you'll find your average person is more accurate with an AR then a shotgun. Even after extensive training. And while shotguns have largely been considered the go-to weapon for a known aggressive dog, I still would prefer an AR in that scenario. Obviously for a larger animal I would pick a .12ga with slugs however. I think they should be in-service as less lethal options for sure. and as an option for a larger animal. But if it were me I wouldn't spend time making people believe its a good choice for an active threat incident. |
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Posted: 11/12/2015 11:07:41 PM EDT
[#18]
We carry and train on both, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Our shotguns carry buck shot, slugs, and breaching rounds on the gun and everyone in the department is trained on how to use them.
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Posted: 11/13/2015 3:40:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One benefit to us no longer issuing shotguns was that we were able to put together a fall training program that gives us more trigger time on the rifles than in any previous year I agree that peoples lack of intimate familiarity with their weapons is an issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
As a FI, I'm torn. No one gets enough training to achieve much more than the minimum competency with any of our weapons. This is even more so with the shotgun. I honestly wouldn't mind shelving the shotguns if it meant double the AR training time (but I know it wouldn't work like that). Also, we are agency mandated to train with frangible ammo and 12 gauge frang is expensive as hell. One benefit to us no longer issuing shotguns was that we were able to put together a fall training program that gives us more trigger time on the rifles than in any previous year I agree that peoples lack of intimate familiarity with their weapons is an issue. I pushed that idea forward.... but the dinosaurs prevailed... 
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Posted: 11/13/2015 9:02:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We issue both and qualify with both. Yep. 2 different guns and each have their own drawbacks and benefits. You should always need shotgun training, unless you are using something different for low lethal (37mm or 40mm). |
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Posted: 11/13/2015 9:07:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Our department carries both and we qualify on both. You decide which one to deploy in any given situation, and then get monday-morning quarterbacked on your decision later.
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Posted: 11/13/2015 11:18:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Limiting yourself to just a rifle is a BAD idea.... 1) Rifles were NEVER added to law enforcement to be used as a replacement for shotguns! Each has different purposes! 2) This has the benefit of putting multiple projectiles out the barrel, with a big punch, at once. Shotguns increase the overall trauma and decrease the requirement on fine accuracy. Accuracy...something that tends to be a little harder to achieve with some officers on range under stress courses of fire. 3) Shotguns are far more versatile: can deploy less lethal, OC, CS or be used to breach a door. 4) It is just as accurate at 50 yards as a rifle, with no worries that the irons are not sighted properly for the shooter or the batteries are dead in laser sight. This has been discussed in depth at ILEETA and the answer is always the same: you need both to be ready and do this job, and if you can only pick one, take the shotgun! I would suggest you do some speaking with your SWAT/ESU/CERT or special team. If you have folks who don't "want" or deploy it, it is because they have not been properly trained on it. If they can't get you the training you or others needs to fix the issue, take the LE NRA shotgun course, because that will fix everyone's line of thinking. If you have folks who don't "like" to shoot it, tell them to grow a set and remember this job is not about comfort or what they like. You are lucky you have both. Make the agency teach you how to use them. |
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Posted: 11/13/2015 11:27:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Rifle only here.
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Posted: 11/14/2015 12:10:26 AM EDT
[#24]
Each of our patrol vehicles have both a rifle and shotgun. Each officer is trained and qualified with each weapon. Choose the weapon that suits your immediate needs.
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Posted: 11/14/2015 2:31:49 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. 2 different guns and each have their own drawbacks and benefits. You should always need shotgun training, unless you are using something different for low lethal (37mm or 40mm). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We issue both and qualify with both. Yep. 2 different guns and each have their own drawbacks and benefits. You should always need shotgun training, unless you are using something different for low lethal (37mm or 40mm). |
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Posted: 11/14/2015 12:31:55 PM EDT
[#26]
How about neither.
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Posted: 11/14/2015 1:02:21 PM EDT
[#27]
We used to only have shotguns & everyone had to qual w/ them whether they carried one or not. Then they finally authorized rifles & now you can choose to carry either one or none.
Now they only make people qual on the shotgun if they carry one & rookies in the academy only fire 4 rounds for familiarization. I have a feeling they are trying to phase them out because they told the last couple of classes they could only be issued shotguns if there was a rack in their car but then took all of the racks out of the cars before they were issued to them. . I carry both and will continue to do so. I like being able to choose, different tools for different uses. I carried a personal 870 for 10yrs because they didn't have one to issue me when I hit the street. Now I carry a department 14" 870. Last shooting I was in my zone partner dropped an armed robber w/ his 14" shotty. We had another shooting at the beginning of year involving both rifles and shotguns. |
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Posted: 11/14/2015 3:33:52 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How about neither. That would truly suck |
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Posted: 11/15/2015 3:39:13 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would truly suck Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How about neither. That would truly suck It doesn't until it will. On my shift, depending on the day of the week, we have 1 to 3 guys out of about 20 that are rifle qualified. No one with shotguns. Takes an act of Satan to get a slot in rifle school. If the big one happens, I'll be more prepared if I'm in my own car on the way home, as opposed to when I'm at work. 
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Posted: 11/16/2015 9:55:11 AM EDT
[#30]
we don't use less-lethal, we don't use a shotgun to breach (outside of tac), and we don't have any wounded moose to put down. Initial firepower (1 shot vs 1 shot) and those 3 things are all a shotgun does better than a rifle IMO.
Our dept issues 14" or 12" 870s to every car, and you can choose your array of slugs or 00 in the gun and the sidesaddle. Separate school for rifle certification, then you can carry a city rifle or personally owned. I still keep the shotgun in the trunk, just as another long gun for one of those real bad scenarios. |
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Posted: 11/16/2015 7:39:07 PM EDT
[#31]
I have not deployed a shotgun in years.
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Posted: 11/16/2015 11:15:49 PM EDT
[#32]
I agree with different tools for different uses. If my department would allow me to put a shorter buttstock on my issued shotgun i would use it even more to clear houses.
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Posted: 11/18/2015 2:58:02 PM EDT
[#33]
A good auto shotty like an M4, SLP, 930 or versamax is an invaluable tool on the street, for felony stops nothing comes close.
If I was forced to choose the carbine would win but I would lose by not having that option anymore. |
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Posted: 11/27/2015 1:11:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Every car here has an AR and a shotgun (mostly 870s). We qualify on both weapons every year.
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Posted: 11/27/2015 9:47:41 PM EDT
[#35]
We are issued a 14" 870 with either buck or slugs and have the option to purchase our own AR, qualify with it and use that. Some guys carry both, but I work in the projects here and I don't want a stray pellet causing my very own riots. Our department doesn't issue less lethal shotgun ammo so when it comes to slugs vs 5.56 I'll just settle for 5.56.
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Posted: 11/29/2015 7:02:58 PM EDT
[#36]
We used to carry both. Shotgun up front and rifle in the trunk. Since then we went to rifle only. Shotguns were taken out of the vehicles all together.
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Posted: 12/2/2015 12:18:55 AM EDT
[#37]
We qualified with both but it was your choice on what you wanted to carry. Some had a preference for one or the other but I carried depending on location. In town it was shotgun and in the country it was the M4 to have more range. Of course you could carry both but I don't know of anyone that did.
Firearms instructors stressed proficiency with both weapons. The idea was to be able to take over someone else's long gun in a critical situation and not worry if he was qualified or not. FYI if you didn't have a passing score you could not carry that weapon until you did. This also addressed a liability issue in case of a shooting with a weapon that you had not qualified with. |
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