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Posted: 12/12/2014 12:47:01 PM EDT
[#1]
What is your question? If you fulfill the requirements of LEOSA, are qualified by your department, you can carry anywhere in the USA except the Postt Office or Federal properties
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Posted: 12/12/2014 1:08:44 PM EDT
[#2]
TheWind,
I went back to make the 2 questions clear. Question 1 -> Since the photo id (or departments not issuing them) is the main sticking point, how can we get more states to become "shall issue"? Question 2 -> What is taking other states so long? It is odd that concealed carry is "shall issue" almost every state so far, but H R 218 LEOSA lags so far behind... |
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Posted: 12/12/2014 2:22:16 PM EDT
[#3]
CCW has no bearing, NJ is a May and never does, I only have to show my LE ID. Our last inservice said it is reccomended to have a neck chain or belt badge off duty also
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Posted: 12/12/2014 3:01:41 PM EDT
[#4]
AL is shall issue but the actual permit format varies by county.
Some counties it's a photo ID and in others it is simply a paper permit with no picture. |
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Posted: 12/12/2014 5:28:20 PM EDT
[#5]
How could a agency not be issuing photo I.D. to it's officer?
You guys must get arrested a lot for impersonation until you're chief comes and vouches for you. I know of one State Trooper that got locked up because of no I.D. when he tried to pick up a prisoner even though he was in uniform. A Lt.had to come claim him. 
After 9/11 I thought everybody had to have photo I.D. even for retired officers. |
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Posted: 12/12/2014 6:03:24 PM EDT
[#6]
I think he is referring to a retired ID card. If a department refuses to issue a retired ID card, the retired officer is screwed as far as LEOSA.
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Posted: 12/12/2014 7:58:22 PM EDT
[#7]
That makes sense, NJ has specifications to keep their cards uniform, Retired has a red stripe saying retired
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Posted: 12/12/2014 8:59:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think he is referring to a retired ID card. If a department refuses to issue a retired ID card, the retired officer is screwed as far as LEOSA. Steve_in_PA, Yes, I was referring to the photo ID for retired/separated officers under LEOSA. As you mentioned if the department refuses to issue it, the retired/separated officer is out of luck. When I first started looking in to this I was surprised that it seems more states have a "may issue" requirement on this instead of a "shall issue." Wondering why this hasn't been pushed in other states so far? The only other state that I know of which has changed its wording recently (2013) has been Colorado. http://www.coloradofop.org/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&homeID=276917 |
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Posted: 12/13/2014 1:17:44 AM EDT
[#9]
It's not a state thing for issuing retired I'd cards, it's a department issue. In PA, it's up to the department to issue retired I'd cards as the state doesn't do it.
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Posted: 12/13/2014 1:02:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not a state thing for issuing retired I'd cards, it's a department issue. In PA, it's up to the department to issue retired I'd cards as the state doesn't do it. True, that the department issues the photo id cards, but lets look at pa code: http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/037/chapter221/s221.23.html "§ 221.23. Identification card issuance. (a) A public agency shall provide each retired law enforcement officer with an identification card, within 60 days of the officer’s retirement, provided the officer has paid the requisite fee. (b) If a law enforcement officer has retired prior to September 12, 2009, upon request of the retired law enforcement officer, a public agency shall provide the law enforcement officer with an identification card, within 60 days of the officer’s request, provided the officer has paid the required fee. (c) A public agency may charge a reasonable fee, not to exceed $15, for each identification card, or replacement card. The identification card may not be issued until the retired law enforcement officer has paid the fee." Other states, such as N.C. do not list a requirement that an agency "shall" provide or issue a photo id card. Some list "may" and others are silent on the issue. In order for LEOSA to be effective and open to everyone who is qualified, we need to work on getting more states to become "shall issue" for those qualified. |
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Posted: 12/14/2014 2:17:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think he is referring to a retired ID card. If a department refuses to issue a retired ID card, the retired officer is screwed as far as LEOSA. That's what happened in my case. I was commissioned by the FD cause I was a Fire Marshal and required to be certified as a police officer by the state. When I retired, the Fire Chief refused to sign off on LEOSA. |
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Posted: 12/14/2014 8:23:02 PM EDT
[#12]
A related semi-sidetrack. While many in Illinois point to Mary Shepard as the "face of CCW" for having been the nice older female church treasurer denied her right to self defense and suffering a horrific attack as a result, we often forget another party in the fight.
Michael Moore was a retired Cook County Sheriff's Corrections officer, who was refused a "retired" ID card - and thus the ability to participate in the Illinois Retired Officer Concealed Carry program and carry a firearm under LEOSA (HR 218) - by none other than Tom Dart, the Sheriff (a Dhimmocrat hack lawyer turned legislator but full time Machine pawn). Officially Moore and the other corrections deputies were refused ID's because they were assigned to the jail - but their having the title of "Deputy", having the same powers of arrest, undergoing the same training and qualifications for carrying a gun on and off duty just like the "road" deputies might lead one to think that the refusal was more likely to Dart's dislike for guns in general (one he has made no effort to conceal). His "because I can" attitude resulted in multiple lawsuits against him and ILETSB by several retirees (Including one in 2010 bearing his name: Moore v Trent et al), but they failed, the Courts holding that even if the retirees met the criteria, nothing in LEOSA or Illinois law could force an employer to offer a card to retirees. If not for Dart's arrogance, the case might not have had as qualified a plaintiff... one of those "highly trained police officers" that the liberals kept using as exemplars, suddenly unworthy of the same ability he had exercised for 30 years. So when you see Lawn Dart on TV ranting and raving about "the irresponsible Act" and blaming "us"? The only irresponsible act he is really ranting about might be his own short-sightedness that resulted in the eventual passage of the FCCA, and the target of his ire might be his own reflection in the lens of the TV camera. Quoted:
Quoted:
I think he is referring to a retired ID card. If a department refuses to issue a retired ID card, the retired officer is screwed as far as LEOSA. That's what happened in my case. I was commissioned by the FD cause I was a Fire Marshal and required to be certified as a police officer by the state. When I retired, the Fire Chief refused to sign off on LEOSA. That's the case with Arson Investigators here in IL. We're considered Peace Officers by statute, have powers of arrest and can carry on our badge, but we're not listed as "certified police officers" in the IL Law Enforcement Training and Standards database. I don't know if any of us have gone through the IROCC (Illinois Retired Officer Concealed Carry) program successfully or not. |
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Posted: 12/15/2014 8:37:59 PM EDT
[#13]
I think they need to make an amendment to 218 that states "shall issue" upon retirement.
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Posted: 12/15/2014 10:06:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know of one State Trooper that got locked up because of no I.D. when he tried to pick up a prisoner even though he was in uniform. A Lt.had to come claim him. .If I were that officer's LT I would have said, "Hold him for 30 days! If no one claims him, he's YOUR'S!" 
ETA: Sorry, guys. That was too juicy a target of opportunity to let slide. 
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Posted: 12/16/2014 3:29:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what happened in my case. I was commissioned by the FD cause I was a Fire Marshal and required to be certified as a police officer by the state. When I retired, the Fire Chief refused to sign off on LEOSA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think he is referring to a retired ID card. If a department refuses to issue a retired ID card, the retired officer is screwed as far as LEOSA. That's what happened in my case. I was commissioned by the FD cause I was a Fire Marshal and required to be certified as a police officer by the state. When I retired, the Fire Chief refused to sign off on LEOSA. Have you tried to contact the entity that certified you as a police officer? |
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Posted: 12/16/2014 4:28:54 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think they need to make an amendment to 218 that states "shall issue" upon retirement. I think they should as well, hence my contacting my elected rep here in NC, requesting that this be done in the next long session. I started this thread with the hope of conversation on the issue, hence my questions of, "how can we get more states to become "shall issue" on LEOSA?", and "What is taking the states so long to do this?" As I understand the issue, and someone more knowledgeable may correct me, LEOSA sets a federal standard for what qualifies as an officer (retired/separated/active) and also sets some limits on where you may carry, but it doesn't overstep the states in everyway. As with the case that Tango7 mentioned Moore v. Trent, as well as other cases such as McKinley v. City of Topeka, and Johnson v. NY State Dept. of Corrections, even though the federal law portion of LEOSA requires a photo id and recent qualification to be covered under LEOSA, the federal law itself does not require a department to issue the photo id or provide a qualification. Rather it is left to the states to set forth requirements, which vary from "shall issue" to "may issue" to silence on the issue depending on the state in question. For an example of a "shall issue" requirement, look at the PA example I listed for Steve_in_PA. I can list some other states laws to show differences, though I do readily admit I do not have all 50 states. I do have several listing "shall issue" and "may issue" to show the difference. Unfortunately, when I mention "shall issue" vs "may issue" people tend to connect it to typical concealed carry, but it is an important part of LEOSA. It is evidently up to the states to adopt "shall issue" IMO so I wonder what interest level is there to do this? Is there a better way to address this issue? |
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Posted: 12/16/2014 9:12:23 PM EDT
[#17]
The problem, for us, is that the CLEO can decide whether or not to issue the HR218 credentials.
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Posted: 12/17/2014 2:47:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you tried to contact the entity that certified you as a police officer? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think he is referring to a retired ID card. If a department refuses to issue a retired ID card, the retired officer is screwed as far as LEOSA. That's what happened in my case. I was commissioned by the FD cause I was a Fire Marshal and required to be certified as a police officer by the state. When I retired, the Fire Chief refused to sign off on LEOSA. Have you tried to contact the entity that certified you as a police officer? Yes, I have. According to them, it's the responsibility of my employing agency. I spent several hours trying to talk to the Chief about it and he refused. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 9:36:11 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I have. According to them, it's the responsibility of my employing agency. I spent several hours trying to talk to the Chief about it and he refused. I bet he was just playing CYA. I'd bet a lot of CLEOs are afraid of turning former cops loose with CCWs for a number of reasons (all bullshit) |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 12:29:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That makes sense, NJ has specifications to keep their cards uniform, Retired has a red stripe saying retired I retired from a NJ municipal agency in 2011. No red stripe on my card. When I left there were no uniform requirements for Police ID cards. When did the new rules start? Mike |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:20:00 PM EDT
[#21]
The "retired" ID's we issue to our guys don't have a red stripe. I'm not aware if any statewide regulation. I assume its an individual department's policy.
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Posted: 12/22/2014 4:55:13 AM EDT
[#22]
I have seen them, said retired, I will let you know in about 3 years when I get mine, of course my deparetment is so cheap they may not afford a red stripe
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Posted: 12/22/2014 11:00:19 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I retired from a NJ municipal agency in 2011. No red stripe on my card. When I left there were no uniform requirements for Police ID cards. When did the new rules start? Mike Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That makes sense, NJ has specifications to keep their cards uniform, Retired has a red stripe saying retired I retired from a NJ municipal agency in 2011. No red stripe on my card. When I left there were no uniform requirements for Police ID cards. When did the new rules start? Mike Mine doesn't have a red stripe either. RETIRED is typed in red on an orange card. Active duty law enforcement I.D.s all look the same after some policy after 9/11 where medical info is bar coded on the back. |
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Posted: 12/22/2014 12:22:21 PM EDT
[#24]
That was an old retired ACPD cop, that was flashing it and acting like an ass
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Posted: 12/23/2014 8:18:41 PM EDT
[#25]
There should also be a requirement to let retirees shoot. Tons of places won't let "outsiders" shoot on their range. If your dept won't let you shoot,and no other dept will, you're screwed too.
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Posted: 12/25/2014 10:30:24 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There should also be a requirement to let retirees shoot. Tons of places won't let "outsiders" shoot on their range. If your dept won't let you shoot,and no other dept will, you're screwed too. I've heard of active firearms instructors who will qualify guys away from Department ranges, but yeah, opening facilities would be a nice modification to LEOSA, as would either removing the retired card requirement or mandating the issue of them. |
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