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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 7/9/2001 7:44:16 PM EDT
Liberal socialists in America always call the conservatives they disagree with "Fascists". Actually both Mussolini and Hitler's parties were very socialist. They took over any industries they wanted or needed for their purposes. The Nazi platform wanted to tax the rich, and attacked the aristocracy.
Link Posted: 7/9/2001 8:13:12 PM EDT
May stem back to Russia (Communism) vs Germany (National Socialism) & liberals being Communists at heart...just like labor unions
Link Posted: 7/9/2001 8:39:18 PM EDT
hmmm. so, i'm not the only one to have pondered this contradiction. in my experience it's because "liberals" rarely know what the hell they are talking about, and merely want to use the most bombastic terms- for maximun emotional impact. liberal is actually a misnomer too...
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 2:44:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2001 2:46:53 PM EDT by Atencio]
That has been a topic that has puzzled me also. If you look at national socialism and fascism you can see traits of both in liberal and conservative beliefs. Orginally Fascism started as a third alternative between capitalism and marxism. Why it came to symbolize extreme right is something I am not sure about. One thought is that when the French Socialist movement started after WW2 they grouped Fascism with captitalism to gain support. I would tend to view fascism more along the lines of communism but there are so many inconsistencies that it makes it difficult. Below I put some traits of fascism and national socialism and what I consider to be common beliefs with the conservative and liberal parties now. "Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal." _Benito Mussolini Common traits of fascism. 1. A ruthless drive to obtain/keep power willing to adopt any issue that would gain converts. [red]liberal[/red] 2. Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission and leading to xenophobia . [red]conservative[/red] 3. Aggressive militarism and glorifying war. Fascists stressed the greatness of dying for the cause in war, the dignity of a mad heroism, and a willingness to struggle against all odds. [red]conservative[/red] 4 .Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others. Given Waco and other instances, [red]liberal[/red] 5. Create perfect societies. [red]liberal[/red]
Link Posted: 7/10/2001 2:48:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2001 2:48:26 PM EDT by Atencio]
The 25 points (orginal platform of the NSDAP) None but members of the nation may be citizens of the State. None but those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation. [red]conservative[/red] Anyone who is not a citizen of the State may live in Germany only as a guest and must be regarded as being subject to the Alien Laws. [red]conservative[/red] We demand that the State shall make it its first duty to promote the industry and livelihood of the citizens of the State. If it is not possible to nourish the entire population of the State, foreign national (non-citizens of the State) must be excluded from the Reich. [red]conservative[/red] All further non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany subsequently to August 2, 1914, shall be required forthwith to depart from the Reich. [red]conservative[/red] Abolition of incomes unearned by work. BREAKING OF THE THRALDOM OF INTEREST. [red]conservative[/red] We demand a generous development of provision for old age. [red]liberal[/red] We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, immediate communalization of the large department stores and their lease at a low rate to small traders, and that the most careful consideration shall be shown to all small traders in purveying to the State, the provinces, or smaller communities. [red]liberal[/red] We demand ruthless war upon all those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Sordid criminals against the nation, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race. [red]conservative[/red] The State must apply itself to raising the standard of health in the nation by protecting mothers and infants, prohibiting child labor, and increasing bodily efficiency by legally obligatory gymnastics and sports, and by extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of the young. [red]liberal[/red] With the aim of opening to every capable and industrious German the possibility of higher education and consequent advancement to leading positions, the State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education. The curriculum of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. Directly the mind begins to develop the schools must aim at teaching the pupil to understand the idea of the State (State sociology). We demand the education of specially gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State. [red]liberal[/red] That all the foregoing requirements may be realized we demand the creation of a strong, central national authority; unconditional authority of the central legislative body over the entire Reich and its organizations in general. [red]liberal[/red]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 8:19:13 AM EDT
my father used to tell me this joke - (he was in ww2) and i never really understood it. but for some reason it fits with this thread. q: what's the difference between a fascist and a socialist? a: one has a better tailor! this could mean hitler had nicer clothes than mussolini - or that there really is no differences....your call. apparently this was the hot joke amongst the oss/british intelligence crowd at one time. the observations are accuarate - just goes to show the simple labels placed do not really add up to what is done. steve
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 9:31:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2001 1:20:20 PM EDT by pbrstreetgang]
funny! i guess it probably means that adolf and il duce had better taylors than uncle joe... liberal, conservative, fascist, socialist, communist,- these are labels chosen by those people to define themselves, and make about as much sense to help you in comparing them as some cartrige designations. i try to look at it in terms of opressive or free. freedom for [i]others[/i]
Link Posted: 7/11/2001 10:50:06 AM EDT
you two...... the difference was between fascists and socialists... Italians are known to make world class suits.....Armani..etc.... I THINK it means...The fascists(read Italians) dress bettter....The politics are the same...
Link Posted: 7/14/2001 6:01:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By steve m: my father used to tell me this joke - (he was in ww2) and i never really understood it. but for some reason it fits with this thread. q: what's the difference between a fascist and a socialist? a: one has a better tailor! this could mean hitler had nicer clothes than mussolini - or that there really is no differences....your call. apparently this was the hot joke amongst the oss/british intelligence crowd at one time. the observations are accuarate - just goes to show the simple labels placed do not really add up to what is done. steve
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Mussolini and Hitler were both fascist. Stalin was a socialist. The joke was we had an alliance with Stalin and Hitler was our enemy and the only difference was the clothes.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 6:07:54 AM EDT
You might want to read [b]The Faces of Janus : Marxism and Fascism in the Twentieth Century[/b] http://www.amazon.com/dp/0300078277?tag=vglnk-c102-20 Or [b]Fascism : A History[/b] http://www.amazon.com/dp/0140257004?tag=vglnk-c102-20 What you have to understand is that fascism was pretty much defined for the rest of the world by the communists. They viewed it as a reactionary ideology, a tool of capitalists for fighting communism and forestalling the fall of capitalist society. In fact, fascism is a progressive ideology, since, per Marxist theory, countries such as Italy (and of course Russia!) did not have the industrial base needed to achieve communism. Fascism attempted to put into place the necessary industrial base. Fascism and socialism are in fact sister ideologies. Socialist and communist propaganda has been effective in obscuring that fact--but a fact it remains. It is interesting to note that Mussolini and many early fascists had started out as socialists. In the case of Mussolini, the First World War convinced him that the men of his time were not yet ready for internationalism; rather they were nationalistic by nature. One could say that fascists were socialists who had grown up, and had adopted a realistic ideology.
Link Posted: 7/26/2001 9:15:42 PM EDT
to add to what Don S said, there are some differences between Fascism and Communism. Communism is the 4th and last stage of human development, so we actuallly have to compare Fascism with Socialism. (Now, get a load of some of these words.) Many Social-political Theorists when explaining social-economics make a judgement call by comparing an individual's productive ability to what he needs from the society at large. Marx's phrase "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is one that comes to mind. In a socialist society, the state owns every thing that is important to that society. The State sets the allocation of resources and the final productive result. In a Fascist Society, the State owns almost nothing, but has the power and authority to allocate resources and production. So Industry is owned by private indivduals, but the State sets the agenda. Right off the bat you can see that one society allows profitmaking by the indivdual while the other society simply doesn't allow it. This is the simplest way I can explain the [b]THEORECTICAL[\b] differences between the two. In practice, there is very little difference between the two. Both "States" decide for you how much you produce, and what you need. In short, if you want to know who is a Communist, ask a Fascist; if you want to know who is Fascist, ask a Communist. There are the only ones who can really tell each other apart.
Link Posted: 7/26/2001 9:36:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CavVet: you two...... the difference was between fascists and socialists... Italians are known to make world class suits.....Armani..etc.... I THINK it means...The fascists(read Italians) dress bettter....The politics are the same...
View Quote
I think the referense was to the spiffy uniforms of the Germans and the Italians, as opposed to say the Soviets. However if the joke did not cover the Russians I think the Germans probably had the better looking uniforms.
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