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Posted: 9/13/2013 2:53:24 AM EDT
Prior to the First Battle of the Marne in September of 1914, Germany was rolling steadily along, even getting within 50 miles of Paris.  It was only after the 'genius of the Marne' that Germany stopped in its tracks, the "race to the sea" and setting up stalemate over ~450 miles of front.






My question is whether success of the Schlieffen Plan and a German victory at the Marne would have drastically altered the course of events in WWI.  If the war doesn't develop into grueling trench warfare, Germany might well have captured Paris before 1915.  







What possible effects do you think this would have had on the British will to fight, the Eastern Front and Bolshevik Revolution, American entry into the war (and becoming a major power), the German Revolution and the Weimar Republic, Hitler and the Second World War, etc.?







I just think it's interesting to speculate how events could have turned out very, very differently but for seemingly minor details.

 
Link Posted: 9/13/2013 3:41:18 PM EDT
[#1]
If you'd like a book on WWI that looks at things from another viewpoint, I'd recommend The Myth of the Great War: A New Military History of World War I by John Mosier.  

Link Posted: 9/19/2013 6:49:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Prior to the First Battle of the Marne in September of 1914, Germany was rolling steadily along, even getting within 50 miles of Paris.  It was only after the 'genius of the Marne' that Germany stopped in its tracks, the "race to the sea" and setting up stalemate over ~450 miles of front.

My question is whether success of the Schlieffen Plan and a German victory at the Marne would have drastically altered the course of events in WWI.  If the war doesn't develop into grueling trench warfare, Germany might well have captured Paris before 1915.  

What possible effects do you think this would have had on the British will to fight, the Eastern Front and Bolshevik Revolution, American entry into the war (and becoming a major power), the German Revolution and the Weimar Republic, Hitler and the Second World War, etc.?

I just think it's interesting to speculate how events could have turned out very, very differently but for seemingly minor details.
 
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holy hell got enough questions are you starting a thesis? ill be back later.
Link Posted: 9/19/2013 7:49:44 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
the marne iss not a minor detail it is the war the biggest effects if the french had half won but still lost paris would be in Italy and Serbia here major major changes would have occured.

r.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Prior to the First Battle of the Marne in September of 1914, Germany was rolling steadily along, even getting within 50 miles of Paris.  It was only after the 'genius of the Marne' that Germany stopped in its tracks, the "race to the sea" and setting up stalemate over ~450 miles of front.


My question is whether success of the Schlieffen Plan and a German victory at the Marne would have drastically altered the course of events in WWI.  If the war doesn't develop into grueling trench warfare, Germany might well have captured Paris before 1915.   [size=2 ] First you have to understand the miracle was no miracle it was a logistical and exhaustion inevitability. The turn was a major blunder and exposed the flank, the french found many german troops asleep too tired to eat. It was no maricle i t ws a blunder the Germans should have stopped rested resupplied and then taken Paris.   [/size=2]

What possible effects do you think this would have had on the British will to fight, [size=2] Some the brits needed more time to get their forces over to france the Marne gave them that. but the brits were motivated by the invasion of the low countries the marne victorywould not change this   [/size=2]
the Eastern Front  and Bolshevik Revolution,[size=2] no real effect see tannenburg the collapse of the tsar was inevitable. [/size=2]

American entry into the war [green ] major reprocutions American entry was based on the zimmermen etlegram which most likely would never happen if Paris fell.  isolationist US would stay out [/green]
(and becoming a major power), the German Revolution and the Weimar Republic, - never happen no versilles treaty no harsh peace terms no nazi germany.
Hitler and the Second World War, etc.?

I just think it's interesting to speculate how events could have turned out very, very differently but for seemingly minor details.
 
the marne iss not a minor detail it is the war the biggest effects if the french had half won but still lost paris would be in Italy and Serbia here major major changes would have occured.

r.

Link Posted: 9/19/2013 8:22:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 9/20/2013 8:07:39 AM EDT
[#5]
First you have to understand the miracle was no miracle it was a logistical and exhaustion inevitability. The turn was a major blunder and exposed the flank, the french found many german troops asleep too tired to eat. It was no maricle i t ws a blunder the Germans should have stopped rested resupplied and then taken Paris
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I've often thought about the Schlieffen Plan, and, IMHO, it was too far ahead of its time.  It was a good plan but the major faults of the plan were that it wore out the troops and caused an overly extended supply train.  For the Schlieffen plan to have succeeded, the Germans would have needed to put most of von Kluck's army and its supply train on trucks to give them the mobility they required.  Using trucks would have been possible in, say the late 1920s and 1930s, but not in 1914.

With the benefit of hindsight, the Germans should have kept their war plans flexible, meaning they should have had many different plans that could have been put into operation, instead of being wedded to one plan. For example, what the Germans could have done is let France declare war on them, and let France futilly throw its army against them in Alsace and Lorraine while the bulk of the German Army dealt with Russia in the East.  No invasion of Belgium, no bringing Britain into the war.
Link Posted: 9/22/2013 12:24:23 PM EDT
[#6]


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With the benefit of hindsight, the Germans should have kept their war plans flexible, meaning they should have had many different plans that could have been put into operation, instead of being wedded to one plan. For example, what the Germans could have done is let France declare war on them, and let France futilly throw its army against them in Alsace and Lorraine while the bulk of the German Army dealt with Russia in the East.  No invasion of Belgium, no bringing Britain into the war.
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France's whole battle plan was to get Britain in the war Britain under Gen French promised troops but would not have committed without the invasion of the low countries.  The French had high hopes in a Russian invasion but thr Russians surprised everyone with the lack of ability they showed.

France would never had attacked first they would have had to go without Britain.

Its an easy read get a copy of Guns of August it explains all of this.
Link Posted: 9/23/2013 3:18:55 PM EDT
[#7]
France would never had attacked first they would have had to go without Britain
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If Germany didn't invade Belgium, I'm not so sure that France could have stayed out of the war.  With the hatred of Germany, the desire to avenge 1871 and the disasters the Russian Army experienced at Masurian Lakes and Tannenberg, I don't think France could have held out for long.  There would have been too much pressure, both external and internal, to "do something" to help Russia and punish  Germany.

Also, if France did declare war, would Britain have gone to war anyway, without the pretext of the invasion of Belgium?

We'll never know, but it is fun to speculate!
Link Posted: 11/11/2013 10:54:37 AM EDT
[#8]
I've heard that there were intrinsic flaws in the Schlieffen Plan regarding the capacity of French transportation infrastructure to convey German troops quickly enough.  Ignore them, ignore the Marne, ignore the BEF, and just pretend the Plan was a success and Paris fell...

Ok.  Then the war wraps up similarly to the Franco Prussian war.  No real stagnation.  Millions of deaths averted.  Germany keeps Alsace Lorraine, puts in for some reparations.  

There is no overthrow of the Czar, there is no second world war.  America may continue it's rise to prominence, but it is slower and maybe not nearly as successful.

Maybe imperial aims in the colonies do not fall out of favor as quickly too, and Africa has a chance to develop in a more managed fashion.

Maybe Germany annexes Austria-Hungary as it's empire falls apart and it goes bankrupt, but nobody cares.
Link Posted: 11/29/2013 1:32:25 PM EDT
[#9]
Yeah, the Schlieffen plan was based on using trained personnel, not raw conscripts, to march 20 miles a day for an extended time.
While possible to do for a short period, forced 20 mile marches take a toll over time. Also, there were no provisions for Murphy.
When the Belgians started blowing bridges in front of the advancing German army, the plan went out the window.
Link Posted: 4/4/2014 1:56:01 AM EDT
[#10]
Also, don't forget that the Germans pulled additional troops from the western front in order to reinforce 8th Army, which under the questionable leadership of Generaloberst von Prittwitz und Gaffron was preparing to retreat west of the Vistula in face of the Russian invasion of East Prussia.
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 1:12:51 AM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
Yeah, the Schlieffen plan was based on using trained personnel, not raw conscripts, to march 20 miles a day for an extended time.
While possible to do for a short period, forced 20 mile marches take a toll over time. Also, there were no provisions for Murphy.
When the Belgians started blowing bridges in front of the advancing German army, the plan went out the window.
View Quote


Actually, the German 1st, 2nd and 3rd Armies all crossed the French border on schedule.  The Belgian resistance accomplished nothing that the Schlieffen plan hadn't anticipated.  What the Germans weren't anticipating was how much ammunition they would use, how much the French (and British) would ignore their own casualties, and of course, how fast the Russians would invade East Prussia.  If  the Germans hadn't withdrawn 2 corps to the East, if the French would have been as incompetent at railway movement as the Germans planned for, and if the Schlieffen plan hadn't conveniently assumed the advancing 1st and 2nd Army would be able to 'live off the land' for the last 100 miles to Paris, then maybe the Germans would have ended the war in 1914.  As it was, even BEFORE the Allied counterattack at the Marne, the Germans were pulling back because their leading units were literally starving and nearly out of ammunition.  
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