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 bigbore 
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Posted: 6/30/2012 6:54:39 PM
[Last Edit: 6/30/2012 7:04:28 PM by bigbore]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT 
I'm out with limited Internet access and posting from my phone. Can anyone help I'd this guy based in uniform? From what I remember off the top of my head, I'm thinking Lieutenant Infantry assault badge Iron cross second class ribbon(eastern front) Wounded badge below assault badge(assuming because I know he was wounded) But I don't know the shoulder boards. If anyone can rotate/repost the pic, Feel free. |
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panzersergeant
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Posted: 6/30/2012 8:32:49 PM
That is a polizei emblem on his cap. He is wearing a military police uniform.
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Black-Tiger
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Posted: 6/30/2012 8:48:13 PM
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
That is a polizei emblem on his cap. He is wearing a military police uniform. If he was a "Feldgendarme" (Military Police), he would also be wearing the "Feldgendarmerie" Gorget, which is akin to the MP Brassard we used to wear. 
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panzersergeant
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Posted: 6/30/2012 9:02:48 PM
Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
That is a polizei emblem on his cap. He is wearing a military police uniform. If he was a "Feldgendarme" (Military Police), he would also be wearing the "Feldgendarmerie" Gorget, which is akin to the MP Brassard we used to wear. http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/military_photos/deutsche-polizei-forum/170024d1294947365t-feldgendarmerie-gorget-original-junk-picture2097.jpg I guess I should have specified Polizei Division, a fighting unit. But even they had their own "field police" that wore the gorget. 
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WayneG
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Posted: 6/30/2012 9:43:36 PM
Looks like 4th SS Polizei Division, but I don't recognize those shoulder boards.
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bigbore
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Posted: 6/30/2012 10:13:10 PM
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Looks like 4th SS Polizei Division, but I don't recognize those shoulder boards. What makes you think that? Here's a better pic of the hat 
I'm flipping through my uniform books, and cant find any pics of the shoulder boards either. |
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bigbore
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Posted: 6/30/2012 10:14:14 PM
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
That is a polizei emblem on his cap. He is wearing a military police uniform. was I correct about the badges and ribbons? |
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panzersergeant
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Posted: 6/30/2012 10:16:04 PM
Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
That is a polizei emblem on his cap. He is wearing a military police uniform. was I correct about the badges and ribbons? Yes. |
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bigbore
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Posted: 6/30/2012 10:18:44 PM
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
That is a polizei emblem on his cap. He is wearing a military police uniform. was I correct about the badges and ribbons? Yes. I cant make out the insignia on the helmet.. 
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Posted: 6/30/2012 10:19:19 PM
Thats a Geman Feldpolizei member. He may be assigned to a Gebirgsjager division because I think he may have an Edelweiss on his feldmutze (fieldcap). He's definitely not SS. If he was SS he would have the sig runen on his right collar and his rank on his left collar. His collars have Lintzen which were standard for the army. His shoulder boards are typical police types with the white cord showing him to be either an officer aspirant or holding temporary rank of NCO.
As for his decorations,the Infantry Assault badge, he could have been an infantryman at one point and then possibly invalided out and put into a Feldpolizei unit. The ribbon looped through the button hole is a War Merit medal second class. I'll look up more on this. |
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bigbore
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Posted: 6/30/2012 10:36:22 PM
Thanks guys, any info is appreciated. This is my wife's grandfather. I was told he was "in the army" during WWII, but no one seemed to know any more than that. I found these pictures in an album today while visiting the in-laws. I've only met the guy a few times, at reunions and funerals and never though to ask about his service. If he saved these pics, I'll assume he's not hiding or avoiding anything and I'll ask next time I see him. I'm in OH, and he's in Kansas, where the host family who sponsored his family after the war lived. I've met old vets, who have never spoke about their service, simply because no one ever asked.... Maybe I'll try writing him a letter.
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panzersergeant
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Posted: 6/30/2012 10:37:10 PM
[Last Edit: 6/30/2012 10:42:01 PM by panzersergeant]
Originally Posted By DefensorFortis:
Thats a Geman Feldpolizei member. He may be assigned to a Gebirgsjager division because I think he may have an Edelweiss on his feldmutze (fieldcap). He's definitely not SS. If he was SS he would have the sig runen on his right collar and his rank on his left collar. His collars have Lintzen which were standard for the army. His shoulder boards are typical police types with the white cord showing him to be either an officer aspirant or holding temporary rank of NCO. As for his decorations,the Infantry Assault badge, he could have been an infantryman at one point and then possibly invalided out and put into a Feldpolizei unit. The ribbon looped through the button hole is a War Merit medal second class. I'll look up more on this. SS 4th Polizei Division soldiers wore Lintzen on their collars and SS eagle sleeve patches on their left sleeve.  |
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bigbore
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Posted: 6/30/2012 11:22:30 PM
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Originally Posted By DefensorFortis:
Thats a Geman Feldpolizei member. He may be assigned to a Gebirgsjager division because I think he may have an Edelweiss on his feldmutze (fieldcap). He's definitely not SS. If he was SS he would have the sig runen on his right collar and his rank on his left collar. His collars have Lintzen which were standard for the army. His shoulder boards are typical police types with the white cord showing him to be either an officer aspirant or holding temporary rank of NCO. As for his decorations,the Infantry Assault badge, he could have been an infantryman at one point and then possibly invalided out and put into a Feldpolizei unit. The ribbon looped through the button hole is a War Merit medal second class. I'll look up more on this. SS 4th Polizei Division soldiers wore Lintzen on their collars and SS eagle sleeve patches on their left sleeve. http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQS7lDJ_pZsys1AVZnkSvHO0K4B53G4pi2YbBBnaNIpPhcVFaf5h2xxuvec http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/666105-2/polizei http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/uniformen/poldiv1.jpg in this pic, there are no SS badges under any of their breast pockets.
He was Austrian if that means anything. |
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Posted: 6/30/2012 11:30:28 PM
Panzersergeant- some ofthose guys you showed are Heer personnel seconded to the SS and the supply system may have not caught up to them. I'm talking about the man in bigbores pic. I'm willing to bet this guy is not SS. I've seen German uniforms and insignia go all over the board but this guy isn't SS. Im betting he was a Kettehunden in a Gerbigsjager unit.
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panzersergeant
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Posted: 7/1/2012 12:12:23 AM
[Last Edit: 7/1/2012 12:37:54 AM by panzersergeant]
Originally Posted By DefensorFortis:
Panzersergeant- some ofthose guys you showed are Heer personnel seconded to the SS and the supply system may have not caught up to them. I'm talking about the man in bigbores pic. I'm willing to bet this guy is not SS. I've seen German uniforms and insignia go all over the board but this guy isn't SS. Im betting he was a Kettehunden in a Gerbigsjager unit. To my knowledge the cap insignia and sleeve patch in the photo were only worn by members of the 4th Polizei Division, which started out as a national police force that was later absorbed into the Waffen SS. "The division was formed in 1939 as part of the Ordnungspolizei (uniformed national police). While all German police organizations were controlled by Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler in his capacity as Chief of German Police in the Interior Ministry, they were not at this time considered part of the SS, nor was the Polizei-Division on a par with the true Waffen-SS Divisions. This status was reflected in the quality of the equipment they were issued[1] and their retention of police insignia and rank structure. The Division was transferred to the Waffen-SS in 1942, and after a variety of splits and reunions it was eventually upgraded to a Panzergrenadier division, the 4th SS-Polizei-Panzergrenadier Division. It fought in France, Russia, Greece and Pomerania and finally surrendered to the Americans in May 1945."- Wiki entry 
ETA according to this website the type of unit/organzation determined what color the patch was. A blue and white patch indicates "water police" and a red patch indicates some type of fire fighting organization. I doubt either of these would apply as neither were likely to have been involved in combat operations. |
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WayneG
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Posted: 7/1/2012 10:16:44 AM
Sorry, late back into this thread. Good catch on the lack of SS insignia on the arm. The cap and shoulder insignia is 4th Polizei, no SS on the left sleeve so probably prior to it's being shifted to the SS in 1942.
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bigbore
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Posted: 7/1/2012 6:38:42 PM
[Last Edit: 7/1/2012 6:39:18 PM by bigbore]
It looks like I'm at an end of info from the family. The guy in the photo doesn't remember anything specific. The only info I can get from his oldest son, was that he and his brother joined the Wehrmacht together. His brother was killed in battle right next to him by the Russians. He was wounded once in the shoulder, and once in the arm during the war. He was "given some awards" for defending a pass around Yugoslavia. His commanding officers ran off, but he stayed with a small group and was able to hold the position.
After the war he rode a bicycle back to Austria and surrendered to the Americans. The Americans hired him to work on their trucks in a metal fab shop. The family of one of the GIs he worked with sponsored him and his family for their immigration to the US. |
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Posted: 7/2/2012 12:44:07 PM
[Last Edit: 7/2/2012 12:46:56 PM by dkstg44]
Originally Posted By bigbore:
http://www.adcofirearms.com/detailpics/tony.jpg I'm out with limited Internet access and posting from my phone. Can anyone help I'd this guy based in uniform? From what I remember off the top of my head, I'm thinking Lieutenant Infantry assault badge Iron cross second class ribbon(eastern front) Wounded badge below assault badge(assuming because I know he was wounded) But I don't know the shoulder boards. If anyone can rotate/repost the pic, Feel free. In that picture he is a senior NCO, Oberwachtmeister of the Schutzpolizei , just promoted based on the shoulder boards. Uniforms, Organizations & History of the German Police, Vol. 1 and 2 by John Angolia |
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Posted: 7/3/2012 10:37:05 AM
[Last Edit: 7/3/2012 10:46:01 AM by dkstg44]
Originally Posted By dkstg44:
Originally Posted By bigbore:
http://www.adcofirearms.com/detailpics/tony.jpg I'm out with limited Internet access and posting from my phone. Can anyone help I'd this guy based in uniform? From what I remember off the top of my head, I'm thinking Lieutenant Infantry assault badge Iron cross second class ribbon(eastern front) Wounded badge below assault badge(assuming because I know he was wounded) But I don't know the shoulder boards. If anyone can rotate/repost the pic, Feel free. In that picture he is a senior NCO, Oberwachtmeister of the Schutzpolizei , just promoted based on the shoulder boards. Uniforms, Organizations & History of the German Police, Vol. 1 and 2 by John Angolia A similar uniform, just not a senior NCO. 
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Posted: 7/3/2012 10:43:29 AM
SCHUTZPOLIZEI DES REICHS UNTERWACHTMEISTER'S SHOULDER BOARD
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bigbore
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Posted: 7/4/2012 10:54:57 AM
I dug up a couple more bits of info from a letter he wrote. After 6 months training in the Netherlands, in 1942 he and his brother were sent to the Eastern Front. He was wounded and his brother killed in 1944.
Which units did or did not train in the Netherlands? From what I found on line, the 4th Polizi were trained in Poland. |
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Posted: 7/4/2012 11:03:33 AM
Originally Posted By dkstg44:
Originally Posted By dkstg44:
Originally Posted By bigbore:
http://www.adcofirearms.com/detailpics/tony.jpg I'm out with limited Internet access and posting from my phone. Can anyone help I'd this guy based in uniform? From what I remember off the top of my head, I'm thinking Lieutenant Infantry assault badge Iron cross second class ribbon(eastern front) Wounded badge below assault badge(assuming because I know he was wounded) But I don't know the shoulder boards. If anyone can rotate/repost the pic, Feel free. In that picture he is a senior NCO, Oberwachtmeister of the Schutzpolizei , just promoted based on the shoulder boards. Uniforms, Organizations & History of the German Police, Vol. 1 and 2 by John Angolia A similar uniform, just not a senior NCO. http://www.jessensrelics.com/images/GHG/GHG-044-1.jpg http://www.hudsonmilitaria.com/policeuniforms/at1a.jpg Those colors are beautiful. |
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Posted: 7/5/2012 10:29:55 AM
Originally Posted By bigbore:
I dug up a couple more bits of info from a letter he wrote. After 6 months training in the Netherlands, in 1942 he and his brother were sent to the Eastern Front. He was wounded and his brother killed in 1944. Which units did or did not train in the Netherlands? From what I found on line, the 4th Polizi were trained in Poland. He was a member of the Polizei-Gebirgs-Jager-Regiment 18. |
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Posted: 7/5/2012 11:45:54 AM
Originally Posted By bigbore:
I dug up a couple more bits of info from a letter he wrote. After 6 months training in the Netherlands, in 1942 he and his brother were sent to the Eastern Front. He was wounded and his brother killed in 1944. Which units did or did not train in the Netherlands? From what I found on line, the 4th Polizi were trained in Poland. Alot trained in the Netherlands, ALOT! From the photo there is no evidence he was in the SS. |
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Posted: 7/5/2012 11:56:41 AM
Two good books:
Hermann Franz – Gebirgsjäger der Polizei: Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 18 und Polizei-Gebirgs-Artellerieabteilungen 1942-1945 Phil Nix & George Jerome - The Uniformed Police Forces of the Third Reich 1933-1945 |
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bigbore
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Posted: 7/5/2012 12:17:10 PM
Originally Posted By dkstg44:
Two good books: Hermann Franz – Gebirgsjäger der Polizei: Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 18 und Polizei-Gebirgs-Artellerieabteilungen 1942-1945 Phil Nix & George Jerome - The Uniformed Police Forces of the Third Reich 1933-1945 Thanks for your input, its much appreciated. I just spoke to his youngest daughter, who told me he was in the same fox hole as his brother when he was killed. A grenade blast hit him in the left shoulder, and his brother in the head. Growning up he lived in Kaptul, Yugoslavia and Sattledt, Austria. At the end of the war, he went on his own to surrender to the Americans in Austria. |
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