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Posted: 12/28/2001 10:34:11 AM EST
Here's another good one! I wanted to make my pre-ban Colt into a SBR with an 11.5" bbl, then add a suppressor with a quick-detach mount (total bbl length only 13.5" with suppressor off and adaptor attached). Of course I wanted the "nasty, evil" tele-stock too. But, the person I spoke with at Tac-Ord told me of a recent BATF ruling (not a law, but I'm not going there!). Basically, if a weapon is registered as a SBR, it no longer falls into the category of a pre-ban weapon and no features of a dreaded assault weapon can be present. So, I could have a SBR, but no tele-stock and no suppressor!! If the SBR was registered PRIOR to the ban, then evil features are OK. I know it makes no sense, but I guess that's the best they can do with my tax dollars. Has anyone heard similar stories? Opinions? Options? Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 11:10:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2001 11:11:52 AM EST by Troy]
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 11:43:12 AM EST
Bullshit. I have a letter myself from the Tech Branch on this very same issue that says the opposite. However, it's not needed. The Form 1, when you get it back, actually references the code section in 922 dealing with this issue (of grandfathered weapons).
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 11:44:38 AM EST
He's wrong. To the contrary, SBRs & other class III type items are not "assault weapons" and thus are not subject to AW restrictions, pre- or post-ban. Consider: In the "Build It Yourself" forum, there is much discussion about how to make an AR-15 pistol legally. The most effective method seems to install a vertical foregrip, making it a Class III AOW (with all appropriate paperwork & taxes, of course) - that way you can legally have an otherwise illegal new post-ban "assault pistol". This is well-documented with BATF letters to the effect. Same idea for your SBR.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 11:50:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By ctdonath: He's wrong. To the contrary, SBRs & other class III type items are not "assault weapons" and thus are not subject to AW restrictions, pre- or post-ban.
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Actually, he's right. Title 2/NFA firearms (Class 3 actually refers to the dealer, not the firearm itself) are still subject to the AW restrictions, if they meet the definition of an AW. A machinegun is exempt from the AW ban because it's not semi-automatic, not because it's a registered NFA firearm. An AOW is exempt because it's not a rifle, pistol or shotgun, not because it's a registered NFA firearm. A Short-barrel rifle (SBR) is NOT exempt from the AW ban, because it's still a semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine, regardless of the fact that it's also a registered NFA firearm.
Consider: In the "Build It Yourself" forum, there is much discussion about how to make an AR-15 pistol legally. The most effective method seems to install a vertical foregrip, making it a Class III AOW (with all appropriate paperwork & taxes, of course) - that way you can legally have an otherwise illegal new post-ban "assault pistol". This is well-documented with BATF letters to the effect. Same idea for your SBR.
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Not so for the SBR - the AOW is exempt because it doesn't meet the GCA definition of a rifle, pistol or shotgun.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 12:00:29 PM EST
I think the way the ATF sees it, if you use a Form 1 ("Application to make and register a firearm), they consider that "new" firearm to have been manufactured the date the form 1 was approved. Therefore, it was manufactured AFTER the ban and is not a legal semiautomatic assault weapon. From the Form 1: "18 U.S.C. 922(v) generally prohibits the manufacture of a semiautomatic assault weapon. The making of an NFA firearm does not provide relief from this prohibition." In English, that means you can't make a NFA weapon to circumvent the assault weapon ban. I guess they are also interpreting that to mean a NFA weapon cannot be an assault weapon also. Of course, interpretation under the current leadership may be different. I guess the only thing to do is write & ask.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 1:21:51 PM EST
You are not manufacturing a new firearm. You are taking an "existing" serial #, and regestering it to allow it to carry a barrel less than 16" and shoulder fire the thing. Been there, done that. ATF sent me a questionaire wanting to know the current configuration, as I had bought lower in '88, did not register/pay excise, as rifle was for personal consumption, NO RE-SALE, so they had no way of knowing. I have the receipt, the 4473, and I told them it has been assembled since '88, what is an AW Ban in '88??? I got my Pre-Ban SBR, 2 of them.
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 8:43:08 PM EST
This is a perfect example of exactly how screwed up the ATF's opinions are. Yes, they did issue an opinion a while back saying that a new SBR becomes Post-Ban. There was a lot of argument over the issue and the ATF retracted that stance in later opinions now saying that it is still a Pre-Ban. Now, the ATF has yet another opinion out saying that if you get rid of the parts necesarry to consider the firearm a SAW, then it becomes a Post-Ban. Even if the Lower was a SAW on September 13, 1994. I wonder if this opinion will go the way of the SBR opinion as it is a complete load of shit.
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 8:47:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2001 8:53:27 PM EST by cc48510]
The AOW/MG issue comes from the definition of a Rifle, Pistol, and Shotgun in 18 USC 44 Sec. 921(a):
(5) The term ''shotgun'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. (6) The term ''short-barreled shotgun'' means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. (7) The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. (8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. (29) The term ''handgun'' means -       (A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and       (B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.
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Link Posted: 12/29/2001 8:49:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2001 8:58:07 PM EST by cc48510]
18 USC 44 Sec. 921(a):
(30) The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means -       (A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as -              (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);              (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;              (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);              (iv) Colt AR-15;              (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;              (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;              (vii) Steyr AUG;              (viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and              (ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;       (B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -              (i) a folding or telescoping stock;              (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;              (iii) a bayonet mount;              (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and              (v) a grenade launcher;       (C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -              (i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;              (ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;              (iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;              (iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and              (v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and       (D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -              (i) a folding or telescoping stock;              (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;              (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and              (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.
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Link Posted: 12/29/2001 9:01:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2001 9:11:25 PM EST by cc48510]
Here is a link to the text of -- 18 USC 44 (Gun Control Act): [url]http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/pIch44.html[/url] 26 USC 53 (National Firearms Act): [url]http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/stEch53.html[/url] 15 USC 29 (Switchblade Ban): [url]http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/ch29.html[/url] 15 USC 18 (Pre-GCA Laws): [url]http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/ch18.html[/url] 15 USC 76 (Toy Gun Ban): [url]http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/ch76.html[/url]
Link Posted: 12/30/2001 1:23:30 PM EST
Let me se if I understand this. If I register my pre ban CAR-15 as an SRB, it loses it's preban status. Now what if I remove it's SBR status, does it revert back to preban? What BS. The lower reciever is what is classified as the weapon, not the upper. Hence, as an already existing preban, you are NOT manufacturing a weapon, you are just REGISTERING it for an upper of under 16 inches in length. That doens't make it a new weapon, it just makes it a REGISTERED weapon. And how does Vector Arms get around the 16 inch rule for their new UZI's? [smoke]
Link Posted: 12/30/2001 2:05:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By timh70: Let me see if I understand this. If I register my pre ban CAR-15 as an SRB, it loses it's preban status.
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NO
Now what if I remove it's SBR status, does it revert back to preban?
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YES
What BS.
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Typical ATF flunkie answer the phone opinion.
The lower reciever is what is classified as the weapon, not the upper. Hence, as an already existing preban, you are NOT manufacturing a weapon, you are just REGISTERING it for an upper of under 16 inches in length.
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Correct
That doesn't make it a new weapon, it just makes it a REGISTERED weapon.
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Correct, allows you to use shorter barrel and shoulder fire legally.
And how does Vector Arms get around the 16 inch rule for their new UZI's?
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Machine Gun rules are different, anything goes there, barrel length is irrelavent.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 9:16:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By cc48510: 18 USC 44 Sec. 921(a):
(30) The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means -       (A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as -              (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);              (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;              (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);              (iv) Colt AR-15;              (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;              (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;              (vii) Steyr AUG;              (viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and              (ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;       (B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -              (i) a folding or telescoping stock;              (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;              (iii) a bayonet mount;              (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and              (v) a grenade launcher;       (C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -              (i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;              (ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;              (iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;              (iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and              (v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and       (D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -              (i) a folding or telescoping stock;              (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;              (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and              (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.
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If I read this correctly, It means I can put a stock on my Carbon-15 pistol ??? The Carbon started life as a pistol, so why can't I put a stock on it ? Also, It doesn't appear to be a problem to put a forward grip on it either... Remember, this started life as a "PISTOL" not a rifle... It even says "pistol" on the receiver... If I can't do this, then how can people put "carbine conversions" or stocks on their 1911's ???
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 11:48:41 PM EST
You can put a stock on your pistol only as long as there's a barrel over 16" installed - otherwise you've made an illegal Short-barrel rifle. If you want to register your pistol receiver as a short-barrel rifle, you can put a stock on it regardless of barrel length, and it's considered a rifle (by definition) while the stock is installed. Because it started life as a pistol, it can revert to being a pistol when the stock is removed. The reverse does not hold true for a rifle to a pistol (can only be an SBR because it started life as a rifle).
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 12:12:41 PM EST
a pistol is any firearm designed as a pistol. a rifle is any firearm designed or redesigned as a rifle. Here is the kicker, a pistol is also any combination of parts suitable for making a pistol. So, could it not be argued that in fact your parts kit + Lower would in fact be suitable to make a pistol. I will post cites in a minute.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 12:16:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2002 12:16:52 PM EST by cc48510]
18 USC 44 Sec. 921(a)--
(5) The term ''shotgun'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. (6) The term ''short-barreled shotgun'' means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. (7) The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. (8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. . . . (28) The term ''semiautomatic rifle'' means any repeating rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge. (29) The term ''handgun'' means - (A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and (B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.
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Link Posted: 1/4/2002 12:18:18 PM EST
18 USC 44 Sec. 922(v) --
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon. (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection.
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Link Posted: 1/4/2002 6:06:34 PM EST
How much farther can we drag something SO simple into "galactic board space waste"? SBR-rifle with barrel shorter than 16", can be built pre-ban or post-ban. Refer to original rifle configuration/production date. Pistol-Cannot be built from an original rifle receiver. Can go SBR route, then remove the stock, IT's LEGAL . You can LEGALLY install a stock to a pistol, BUT, you have to register as SBR. You can LEGALLY install a 16" barrel to a pistol, and a stock for shoulder fire, then remove said parts and keep pistol status- as per the described "carbine conversion" for the 1911 models, and the M11-9 carbine kits. AOW-CAN ONLY be built from a "virgin" receiver. CANNOT have a buttstock, Must have a Forward grip. May be able to AOW a pistol I think, as the HK SP-89 has a forward grip available to make it similar to the MP5-K, and requires authorization to install the grip first.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:25:57 PM EST
I don't want to drag this out anymore than the next guy, BUT... I am seeing this from a different angle... Unless I'm reading incorrectly, my Carbon-15 pistol does NOT have enough of the EVIL features to constitute an "assault pistol"... So, it's nothing more than a "pistol"... Therefore, if it's NOT an assault pistol, it doesn't fall under the assault weapons ban, NOR does it have to meet the same scrutiny as an assault weapon... The whole argument should be moot... You see where I'm coming from here ? (I'm probably wrong anyway)
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:42:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By cc48510: 18 USC 44 Sec. 921(a):
(30) The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means - .....(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -              (i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip... [red] YES, IT HAS THIS [/red]              (ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer... [red] IT HAS NO THREADED BARREL [/red]              (iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned... [red] NOPE, NO BARREL SHROUD [/red]              (iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded... [red] IT WEIGHS LESS THAN 50 oz [/red]              (v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm... [red] Ummm...Questionable ?...It didn't start life as an automatic, and I don't believe POI makes this in FA...[/red] Am I way off base here ?, or did I stumble onto a "loophole"??? THANKS, Dragracer(toomanystartinglineG's)ART
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 11:22:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By SBR7_11: May be able to AOW a pistol I think, as the HK SP-89 has a forward grip available to make it similar to the MP5-K, and requires authorization to install the grip first.
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Yes, you can. Olympic Arms did it with their OA-93 TG. If someone wants something that is much the same, send me email. mark
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 11:45:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dragracer_Art: Am I way off base here ?, or did I stumble onto a "loophole"??? Dragracer(toomanystartinglineG's)ART
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Not a loophole - just not a semi-auto assault weapon because the features count is one or less. Because it's a semi-automatic with a detachable magazine, and made after 9/13/94, it's got to conform to the 94 AW ban. The fact that it has only the one feature (magazine which attaches outside the pistol grip) makes it a legal post-ban pistol. Add another feature, and you've made a semi-auto assault weapon (which would be illegal). A post-ban legal AR-15 type rifle is not a loophole, either - it's a semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine, and made after 9/13/94. The fact that is has only one feature (the pistol grip) makes it a legal post-ban rifle. Add another feature, and you've made a semi-auto assault weapon (which would be illegal). The hard part in making a post-ban pistol is making the weight, usually, since the magazine which attaches outside the pistol grip is its ONE allowed feature.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 6:57:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By Circuits:
Originally Posted By Dragracer_Art: Am I way off base here ?, or did I stumble onto a "loophole"??? Dragracer(toomanystartinglineG's)ART
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Not a loophole - just not a semi-auto assault weapon because the features count is one or less. Because it's a semi-automatic with a detachable magazine, and made after 9/13/94, it's got to conform to the 94 AW ban. The fact that it has only the one feature (magazine which attaches outside the pistol grip) makes it a legal post-ban pistol. Add another feature, and you've made a semi-auto assault weapon (which would be illegal).
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From my "angle"... telestocks, and forward pistol grips are not considered "Evil" features on a pistol... Where does it say a "pistol" CAN'T have these specific items as "add-ons"... Also, the weight requirements are figured "at the time of mfg, and unloaded ", so after original mfg, any weight is acceptable... SORRY TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE...
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 10:24:26 AM EST
A pistol can't have a stock or it's considered a rifle. A telestock is a stock, so forbidden by the definition of being a pistol. A forward handgrip is forbidden, because ATF defines a pistol as having ONE grip at an angle to the barrel. If you put a forward handgrip on a pistol, ATF no longer considers it a pistol, but an 'any other weapon'. They're not listed as 'evil features' because they're already forbidden from being put on pistols.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 6:34:47 PM EST
O-well... So much for that idea... I guess this means it's time to buy a machinegun if I want to have this configuration... (Telestock / 7-1/2" barrel / forward pistol grip, etc...) I guess "anything goes" with respect to machineguns... Damn, this is gonna get expensive...
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 10:00:47 PM EST
There are questions as to the legality of a Foward Pistol Grip. ATF has arrested for it. Some courts have ruled putting one on later doesn't constitute an AOW. Som ehave ruled the opposite. So, in reality it is a game of chance. The legal status is still in limbo. Adding a stock to a pistol makes it a rifle.
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