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Posted: 12/22/2001 3:17:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2001 11:03:42 AM EDT by thee12nv]
[url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=80176[/url] I hate to double post but I need legal advice regarding incorporating in Fl then moving to TX wiht my NFA, I will keep the Fl corp active if needed? ............... UPDATE The CLEO turned me down.. saying the only reason to have a MG was to kill people, man I was pissed. Please list any alternatives.. i would hate to sell it..
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 4:26:51 PM EDT
It is hard to understand what your question is.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 10:55:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2001 10:47:48 PM EDT by thee12nv]
Basically. i want to get my M16 to me soon(ie within the next 7 months) before i go to texas. Can i incorporate in FL, name my mother as an officer and in late june when I go to Houston,Tx take the rifle with me and keep the Fl corp? Here is my dilemma. My RR M16 is at my dealer. the CLEO doesn't seem too keen on signing for it. I am moving to TX in 7 months for my new job. (for at least a year or two) What are my options? How should I go about geting my toy? Please name all options. Thanks again-
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 10:57:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thee12nv: Basically. i want to get my M16 to me soon(ie within the next 7 months) before i go to texas. Can i incorporate in FL, name my mother as an officer and in late june when I go to Houston,Tx take the rifle with me and keep the Fl corp? Here is my dilemma. My RR M16 is at my dealer. the CLEO doesn't seem too keen on signing for it. I am moving to TX in 7 months for my new job. (for at least a year or two) What are my options? How should I go about geting my toy? Please name all options. If i can't get a signature in houston why pay 200 + incorporation fees to transfer to a new corp in Tx? Thanks again-
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Link Posted: 12/22/2001 11:39:08 PM EDT
You should write ATF for an opinion, but here's my take: A corporation is a state created legal entity that is, in some ways, a "single person". That's why your corporation can be the registered owner. However, the corporation is still a "florida resident" for legal purposes so the NFA gun must remain there unless you get ATF approval (like for a shoot in AL or something) to cross state lines with it temporarily. Now, one could argue that if you get permission from ATF to take it to TX as a corporate officer and it remains legally owned by a Florida corporation then you'd be OK. However, what you're really doing is using the corporate ownership to do something that you couldn't otherwise do legally, i.e. permanently moving the gun across state lines. I think ATF would take a dim view of that. Here's what I suggest: 1) Form a corporation in FL and have the gun transferred to the corp. 2) When you move to TX, leave it in FL and then see if you can get the CLEO in TX to sign off and transfer it there to you. 3) If not (2), then form a corp in TX and transfer it that way.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 8:32:38 AM EDT
Don't know about the BATF part of things, but you can incorporate in your current state now. What you need to do is check on: 1. Can you keep your Fla corp when you leave for Texas (check with Fla corporate attorney) 2. If you can keep the Fla corp, do you have to register it in Texas (check with Texas attorney, answer is most likely yes, he will look at the meaning of 'doing business' in that state for corps) You may also want to explore setting up a Texas entity and registering (as doing business) it in Fla while you are still there. You may also want to explore other entity forms such as an LLC, LLLC, or LLLP. There can be pass through tax advantages like the S corp, without (quite) as much BS.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 9:08:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2001 9:05:38 AM EDT by shaggy]
Well, my first question would be why don't you wait until you get to TX, have the weapon transferred on a F3 to a TX SOT, then get it on a form 4 as an individual. As I understand it, getting a signoff in TX is easy, and you are always better to have it owned by you rather than a corporation. Certainly you'll have to pay a little more for the extra transfer to the TX SOT, but considering what you'll spend on incorporating and keeping the corp alive for as long as you want to own the NFA weapon, its peanuts. I would only incorporate to get an NFA weapon as a last resort. If you are moving to TX and can get a CLEO signoff there, that should be your first choice, even if it means a few more dollars in transfer fees and a little more of a wait. Once you (individually) own an NFA weapon, you can move it to any state where possession is legal (ie. you can go back to FL with it after a few years when your job in TX is done). You merely have to do a form 5320.20 and inform BATF that the move to the new state is permanent, not temporary. If you are dead set on doing the corporate route in FL, you can temporarily move the gun to TX provided you get an approved form 5320.20 from the NFA Branch. Its the same process as if you owned the gun as an individual in FL. As a corp you can't do it permanently, unless you also incorporate in TX though. I think the maximum they will approve is 6 months.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 9:46:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2001 9:48:41 AM EDT by thee12nv]
Thank you for all the suggestions. As far as waiting until i get to TX. I have heard that it is hard to get a signoff in houston also and that for a signature you have to have lived in that area for a few months. If that is the case I am looking at another year before i can get it. Not to mention my SOT probably would not want to hold it for that long. As far as incoporating here how would I transfer it to myself in TX. $200 to a SOT then the SOT in FL to one in TX, his fee, and another $200 Tax to get it to me? Could i set up a corp in Texas now, without living there and register to do business in florida? How would I go about the transfer? I would contact a Corporte lawyer bu dealing with NFA items is probably not something they are familiar with. Man this sucks...
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 5:28:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: You may also want to explore setting up a Texas entity and registering (as doing business) it in Fla while you are still there. You may also want to explore other entity forms such as an LLC, LLLC, or LLLP. There can be pass through tax advantages like the S corp, without (quite) as much BS.
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I don't think he's worried about tax issues. I think the only reason he's looking at the corporation is to (legally) avoid the CLEO signoff and fingerprint cards required for an individual Form 4. Corporations can register NFA devices and they don't need CLEO signoff to do it, and obviously you can't "fingerprint" a corporation. Forming a corporation just so you can have the gun for 7 months in FL doesn't seem worth it to me.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 5:38:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thee12nv: I would contact a Corporte lawyer bu dealing with NFA items is probably not something they are familiar with. Man this sucks...
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Call and talk to someone at ATF's NFA branch, someone that knows what they're talking about. Bounce your problem off them and see what they say. Don't take it as legal advice, but this is the type of thing that they are qualified to deal with. Maybe they have some ideas. You could also find out what the requirements are to be an incorporator in TX (you may have to be a resident for 1year+). If there's a resident requirement, you can have a friend there be the "incorporator" (the one that files the articles, signs them, etc.) but you buy all the shares so you own it and elect yourself chairman and CEO and President. Appoint your friend as an officer so he/she can hold the gun on behalf of the Corp until you arrive. Then you can transfer the gun to the TX corporation and VOILA!, it's there for you when you arrive, no hassle. I'm a genius. :)
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 6:27:51 PM EDT
That's what I thought, too. But if you are going to set up a personal corp you may as well have a pass through and either: run your home business through it; or transfer all personal stuff to it and use it as your major estate plan. Either way you'll want pass through tax.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 10:37:45 PM EDT
Why can't he just set up a multi-state corporation. I know Wal-Mart, K-Mart, and any other major corporation are surely incorporated in all 50 States. I don't know much about Business Law as the only law I studied (2 classes) was Criminal Law. But, it seems that since there are so MANY Multi-National Corps. out there that incorporating in multiple states shouldn't be a problem. Then again as I said, I haven't studied Business Law. My Advice: Contact A Lawyer Familiar With The Articles Of Incorporation And Ask Them About Forming A Multi-State Corporation in Texas And Florida.
Link Posted: 12/25/2001 7:32:50 AM EDT
You could always pay your SOT for it ... he could hold it as stock on hand kinda like a backwards lay-away until you are able to either have it trasnfered to another location for you to have it transfered to yourself. The only problem would be for him to have to safe store it. Besides if you were not able to take possesion of it, it might appreciate in value and since you technically own it you are the one that could sell it and profit. Ted...
Link Posted: 12/25/2001 8:05:42 AM EDT
CC, you are wrong. The big guys are incorporated in delaware, and are registered in the states they do business. They may have sub corps to do various things for the parent, but those will likely be delaware corps too. (Delaware law is well known to the corps, and the reason so many cases are litigated in NY is because NY specifically instructs its judges to take any commerical case of note if it meets the basic constitutional test for 'jurisdiction', even if it really has nothing to do with NY, thus insuring that NY remains the major business center)
Link Posted: 12/25/2001 4:30:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By phonegunner: You could always pay your SOT for it ... Ted...
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It is already bought and paid for.. hence the rush..
Link Posted: 12/25/2001 9:49:26 PM EDT
Thanks, HappyShooter. As I said I basically don't know jackshit about Business Law/Incorporation. But, from what you said it would seem that he (thee12nv) could incorporate in one state and register in the other. Would this allow him to have the gun in both states as the corporation does business in both states. For example could he incorporate in Florida and register in Texas and then be able to move the NFA Firearm between the 2 states ?
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 11:18:37 AM EDT
I was denied as updated above.. Please help. i woould hate to have to sell it.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 3:17:03 PM EDT
UPDATE The CLEO turned me down.. saying the only reason to have a MG was to kill people, man I was pissed. Please list any alternatives.. i would hate to sell it..
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Corporation in TX as I described. Also, go ask the CLEO if he has any FA firearms in his department's inventory. Ask it in an innocent, curious kind of way. When he says "Why yes, our SWAT team has MP5s and some other items" ask him why they need those if their only purpose is to kill people, when SWAT is supposed to save lives. Then explain to him that FA guns have purposes other than just killing people (such as recreational shooting and collectors value as they are banned from further manufacture and import), and even if their only purpose WERE to kill people, there is such a thing as self-defense. Killing is not always wrong.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 3:50:33 PM EDT
Ahh if you are going to ask the CLEO questions why not really piss him off. Ask him how many shootings have his officers been involved in the last decade that included a homicide. Then ask how many officers were tried and convicted of murder or wrongful death in the last decade. Then tell him you haven't even been charged in the last decade and he should worry more about his own department than a law abiding citizen.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 4:14:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2001 4:16:09 PM EDT by thee12nv]
I will look into incoporating in TX. I don't know anyone there so if there is a residencey req I am SOL. Could I set up the corp and have the gun 5320.20 for FL for the next 5-6 months until I went TX? If i have to incorporate in fl how would I get it to me or my new corp in TX when I move? how many more 200 taxes? The sheriffs office dicked me around for a couple weeks with a home inspection, background check, refrence checks, etc. I couldn't even get through to the sheriff i had to deal with his secretary.She said they are only used for one thing, of which I replied what? It caught me like a deer in headlights. I tried to explain the thing would go up in value, of which she implied the next person I would sell it to would kill people with it.. I was so pissed. I just left it with thank you, time to go around the sheriff and incorporate. She loved that.
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 3:21:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thee12nv: I will look into incoporating in TX. I don't know anyone there so if there is a residencey req I am SOL. Could I set up the corp and have the gun 5320.20 for FL for the next 5-6 months until I went TX?
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You can either: 1) Incorporate in TX (find a lawyer to draft the articles AND be the resident incorporator) and then transfer the gun from FL dealer to TX dealer (whatever that entails) and then to the TX corp, one $200 tax. 2) If you absolutely can't wait, then incorporate in FL and transfer it to the FL corp ($200), then back through the FL and TX Class III dealers to the new TX corp (another $200 plus transfer costs).
Link Posted: 12/31/2001 3:39:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2001 3:52:55 PM EDT by cc48510]
I couldn't even get through to the sheriff i had to deal with his secretary.She said they are only used for one thing, of which I replied what? It caught me like a deer in headlights. I tried to explain the thing would go up in value, of which she implied the next person I would sell it to would kill people with it.. I was so pissed.
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Broward, Dade, or Palm Beach ? I live in Broward and we have Oberfuror Kenne Jenne. For those who don't know, he is the asshole who wrote an "Assault Weapons and Unsafe Handguns" Bill for Florida and handed it to Rep. Wasserman to introduce in the Florida House. Fortunately, the bill never made it to the floor of the Legislature (where it surely woulda died.) That bill woulda made all Semi-Autos. illegal and had no Pre-Ban clause. All guns would have to be turned over in 14 Days. But, since few even knew this was in the works. Who knows if anybody would have known until it was too late. Any current owners would be screwed. If anybody wonders about Jenne's position on Guns. This illustrates it. He tried to give Florida a law more restrictive than either PRK's Roberti-Roos or New Jersey's AW Ban. The unsafe handgun bill had such requirements that many believe not a single handgun would've passed. He is ardently anti-gun. [url]http://www.smartcarry.com/fl_alert.htm[/url] [url]http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/hindsight/hs022000.html[/url] [url]http://www.smartcarry.com/broalert.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 5:19:57 PM EDT
thee12nv, why not get hold of donsmith. It sounds like he has set up many gun toting corporations in the past, but in Oklahoma, not Florida or Texas. He should be able to give you a few ideas. Phone and email listed in this old thread: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=54168[/url]
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 5:57:31 PM EDT
If you live in South Florida, try to get ahold of SteyrAUG. He is an FFL with experience helping customers incorporate. This is becuase he lives in Broward and hell will freeze over and pigs'll fly before Kenne Jenne ever signs a Form 4. He's offered to help me inocorporate and I'm sure he'd be willing to help you. His e-mail is [email]covertop@hotmail.com[/email] BTW, he seems to specialize in H&K Firearms.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 6:10:30 PM EDT
Thanks actually I am in central flrida with residency a;so in Tampa. thanks, I will contact them both if my judge here falls through.
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