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Posted: 10/26/2001 9:12:54 PM EST
Hello all, I'm new to the group but found the site while searching for an answer to this question. Maybe someone here can help. I live in California (waits til the laughing subsides...) and I want to own an AR. Aside from purchasing one in Nevada and driving it home, do I have any other options? Is there a "California Legal" AR? Can someone who legally owns a pre-ban rifle here in California legally sell that rifle to someone else? I'd really like to own a "Military Style" weapon for home and personal defense in case of a major catastrophe, but the idea of getting charged with a felony for possessing an illegal weapon (and thereby losing my right to own weapons legally) scares the hell out of me. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, madmike http://www.madmike.com
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:21:48 PM EST
Mike, If you want an AR or other military style rifle, you will have to move out of California. It is illegal for you to go out of state and buy one, then bring it back to California. That would buy you both state and federal felonies. Not worth it.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:33:06 PM EST
Yep, California = sucks. I hope we can get this shit law overturned, but I pretty much doubt that's possible...
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:48:36 PM EST
While you cannot buy a AR or AK or any of their many clones, etc, any longer in CA (for all practical purposes anyways), you can still purchase (legally) an M1A, fixed 10 round mag SKS, M1, and several others. Then of course there are all the "military style" bolt guns - Enfields, M1903s, etc. You cannot legally go to NV and buy an AR and bring it back, privately or through an FFL. If you did and got caught it is a big price to pay.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:51:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2001 9:47:02 PM EST by Phoenix5]
DPMS makes a Kali legal lower. [url]www.dpmsinc.com[/url]. Of course it is a single shot receiver(no mag well). Remember, you asked for a legal receiver!!!Good luck! BTW, Welcome to the boards[sniper] Edited to make the link active. DOH!!
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:54:24 PM EST
Thanks for the answers so far... I'm perfectly clear on the fact that I can't legally buy an AR in Nevada and drive it home. I was being sarcastic and it didn't come across. That is exactly my point, I don't want to risk a felony with an illegal weapon, I was looking for suggestions on a legal transaction, or a good substitute. Thanks again, madmike
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 10:36:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By madmike: Thanks for the answers so far... I'm perfectly clear on the fact that I can't legally buy an AR in Nevada and drive it home. I was being sarcastic and it didn't come across. That is exactly my point, I don't want to risk a felony with an illegal weapon, I was looking for suggestions on a legal transaction, or a good substitute. Thanks again, madmike
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Click on the link(in red)above. It is the only alternative I know of.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 10:40:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2001 10:34:48 PM EST by Princeton]
From what I understand, the people that own the registered "assault weapons" in California cannot ever sell them to any other person except to a dealer licensed by the state. They cannot even give a registered "assault weapon" to next of kin. Unless the law is changed or reversed there will come a time in California that there will be no civillian ownership of assault weapons. Probably, within the next 50-80 years, unless they totally ban them sooner. It would be easier to collect them now that the state knows where they are. I know all you guys registered your weapons, Right!!![;)]
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 10:03:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By Princeton: From what I understand, the people that own the registered "assault weapons" in California cannot ever sell them to any other person except to a dealer licensed by the state. They cannot even give a registered "assault weapon" to next of kin....
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That is correct. We cannot even WILL them to our heirs. It's a complete usurpation of our private property rights as well as an obvious violation of our 2A rights.
...I know all you guys registered your weapons, Right!!![;)]
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Let's just say that if you see an AR-15 in MY hands at a public shooting range it will be a registered, 100% legal one; you and your wife and kids are welcome to shoot it; and leave it at that. [50]
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 11:02:32 AM EST
Ten round magazines only for the kids. Felony if you let kids shoot an AR, or any other firearm for that matter, using a high cap detachable magazine.
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 11:12:57 AM EST
Ten round magazines only for the kids. Felony if you let kids shoot an AR, or any other firearm for that matter, using a high cap detachable magazine.
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[b]You're joking, RIGHT!!!![/b][whacko] That's the absolutely most ridiculous gun law I've ever heard of![whacko] I've heard of some stupid laws but this one beats them all![whacko]
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 4:51:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Ten round magazines only for the kids. Felony if you let kids shoot an AR, or any other firearm for that matter, using a high cap detachable magazine.
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I don't think that is quite accurate. I believe the wording was changed to allow it with a parents permission etc. But if it is true then I know at least 4 LEO who have personally witnessed 2 minors shooting AR15s with hicap mags and could care less about "charging or arresting" anyone. Where you ask? At our monthly High Power matches. btw, both minors hold Master ranking [:)]
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 4:58:29 PM EST
What happens if you already own assault rifles, and then (god forbid) move to california? Do you have surrender them to somebody, or are they confiscated at the border by the Nazis, I mean the CHP?
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 5:55:00 PM EST
You get to send them to a California licensed "assault weapons" dealer to hold for you, while you apply to the California DOJ for a permit to have and keep them in Cali. If Cali DOJ doesn't approve you, then they've got to be sold/moved back out of state. It's about the same as moving in to New York State with handguns... the gun has to go to a New York FFL dealer to hold while you apply for your NYS pistol permit (can take 6 months, even for one to own at just your house and to and from a range).
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 6:36:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2001 6:30:39 PM EST by Chaingun]
Originally Posted By Pthfndr:
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Ten round magazines only for the kids. Felony if you let kids shoot an AR, or any other firearm for that matter, using a high cap detachable magazine.
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I don't think that is quite accurate. I believe the wording was changed to allow it with a parents permission etc. But if it is true then I know at least 4 LEO who have personally witnessed 2 minors shooting AR15s with hicap mags and could care less about "charging or arresting" anyone. Where you ask? At our monthly High Power matches. btw, both minors hold Master ranking [:)]
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I'm no expert either but I believe anyone under the age of 18 cannot TOUCH an AW. If a minor touches the gun, it's a felony against the owner. I don't believe there's a law again a minor using standard cap mags (you know those 30 rounders). (spelling)
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 6:43:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 11:24:32 PM EST
Few choices here. M1A, M1 rifle or carbine, SKS w/ 10-round fixed mag, DSA "CA legal" FAL with 10-round fixed mag and top-loading dust cover. Of course, you can get the FAL of your choice and shoot it in Nevada. Just remove the pistol grip before coming back into CA. If there comes a time when you really need the FAL, i.e. major chaos, then I doubt you would have to worry about reattaching the pistol grip because in that situation, there will probably be no viable LEO presence around anyway.
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:36:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Ten round magazines only for the kids. Felony if you let kids shoot an AR, or any other firearm for that matter, using a high cap detachable magazine.
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I assume Dave meant this as sarcasm 'cause it isn't so. Transferring (selling, giving away, willing) any AR-15 is a felony regardless of magazine capacity. If the transferee is a minor you can get a 1-year sentence enhancement. Transferring any magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds is a misdemeanor. Letting someone at the range hold, inspect, or even fire your rifle does not constitute a transfer, and the age of the person you allow to shoot it is irrelevant.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 12:36:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:27:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By Big_Bear:... Forget about getting a permit. That falls under the same section in the law that covers full autos. I don't know of anyone who has ever gotten a permit, except for maybe police, military, or Hollywood (for TV and movies).
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Private armored car companies can get machinegun permits in California. Also police departments and companies that supply props for movie studios.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:28:01 PM EST
There is another AR option but I still haven't heard of anyone buying one. Has anyone ordered one of these things yet??? At least it's better than a single shot! [url]http://www.gogogadgets.net/[/url]
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 4:39:45 AM EST
I haven't seen one of the gogogagets.net lowers for sale anywhere yet. You'd have to ask an FFL holder if he or she feels lucky enough to risk ordering one for you. I think it's a pretty good idea. But if people do start buying them it's only a matter of time before an attention-starved legislator starts screaming about the "loophole" in the AW ban.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 4:47:05 PM EST
If it happens, it happens, but the FAL crowd is already taking advantage of it by simply pinning a 10 rounder in place. [url]http://www.dsarms.com/SA58_T48_Replica.htm[/url] I'm not really looking for one so haven't bumped into any FFL's willing to do the paperwork yet.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 6:43:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 6:28:14 PM EST
Now about that whole thing about not being able to pass down a piece of private property to the next generation, so lets say you do have a registered AW AR15, in 50 years or so when the current owners die off, they are still going to have the record of the registration? It doesn't seem likely to me that the State is that organized, and even if they did, how would they know something didn't "happen to it" in the owners lifetime, and since he's dead he can't turn it in, and the heirs can just say they don't know anything about it, and basically thats all she wrote. So basically unless your kids are tree hugging, bunny loving hippies there probably won't be too many AW turned in, anywho, this is just my thoughts on the subject
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 7:03:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 7:16:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 2:46:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Troy: Even now, ARs and AKs attract attention at the range. Lots of people ask, "Isn't that illegal?" etc. -Troy
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What ranges has this been happening at? Just wanted to know so I can keep clear of 'em.
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 6:10:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Troy: Even now, ARs and AKs attract attention at the range. Lots of people ask, "Isn't that illegal?" etc. -Troy
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Troy, you have got to get out of that urban area. That sort of thing NEVER happens at my range [:)]
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 4:10:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Troy:...Even now, ARs and AKs attract attention at the range. Lots of people ask, "Isn't that illegal?" etc...-Troy
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I agree with Troy's assessment of the long-term problem, but at MY range I only get comments like "Nice AR-15!" and an occasional "What caliber does that shoot?"
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 3:01:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 10:21:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By USNvet: There is another AR option but I still haven't heard of anyone buying one. Has anyone ordered one of these things yet??? At least it's better than a single shot! [url]http://www.gogogadgets.net/[/url]
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Received this e-mail today: From: "Angela" To: Subject: FAB10 Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 The receivers will be ready to ship in two weeks - three weeks on personal serial numbers. The price is $169.95 for one and $159.95 two to five. We are not accepting orders for more than five at this time. Options: Personal serial number (numbers and letters) up to 9 digits. $10.00 extra Color: Black or dark green Mil-Spec military contract lower parts set installed with pistol grip - no stock - $60.00 extra Basic receiver comes with 10 round box mag, stripper clip guide and four stripper clips, California Department of Justice letter of approval. To order you must go through an FFL dealer. We must have have FFL and Certificate of Eligibility from FFL dealer. We have several so if you don't have one already, we may have one in your area. We accept VISA/MASTERCARD, Money Orders, Business Checks (will be held for ten working days) Our telephone/fax number is: 530-674-9179 Thank you. Angela Myers GoGoGadgets I hope this pans out soon. We will see.
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 10:58:49 PM EST
I live in the SFV area. Anyone have a recommendation on a "good" range I can shoot my AR's at and not get grief? Thanks!! adam
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 7:26:35 AM EST
GoGoGadgets has the non-protruding pistol grip [url]http://www.gogogadgets.net/misc.htm[/url] Are these legal in Kalif?
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 8:15:59 AM EST
GoGo Gadgets emailed me back in September and said they will be shipping the Cali legal lowers the second week of October. I have a feeling they don't have approval yet.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 8:21:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By glock_lobster: GoGo Gadgets emailed me back in September and said they will be shipping the Cali legal lowers the second week of October. I have a feeling they don't have approval yet.
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They claim you can send them a lower and they will send back perminately modified legal lower. What happens if the lower is specifically named on the ban list, and how would the state allow something like this?
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 10:50:18 PM EST
Try this; fix up a Tannery lower, then weld a 10 round mag in place. Now you have a gogogadget knockoff, privately built/owned and not for sale to anyone. [:D] WSmac
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 7:59:04 AM EST
Yes, finishing a tannery lower for personal use became legal again in Caliban-control territory in June. This is due to "Hutton vs Kings County" ruling by the Caliban supreme court. Prior to June, Perata added an amendment to 89 AW law to include all series type regardless of manufacturer including one's self. However, you still must follow the federal '94 crime bill and '99 CA AW ban (SB23). Also note that the ATF and Caliban-lackey Lockyer have different definitions of the pistol grip. Lockyer's definition (which is illegal BTW as he is not impowered to lesgislate) is far more restrictive than the ATF. The pistol grip offered by gogogadgets is still a banned pistol grip by Lockyer's definition. In order to legal use gogogadget's pistol grip, you must modify the trigger to extend below the trigger guard and cover-up the exposed area for the normal trigger. You cannot use any lower that is specifically listed on the AW ban list. These are my opinions. Before you proceed, you should consult a knowledgable attorney or write the Caliban DOJ.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 11:18:57 AM EST
operatorerror, thanks for posting. The email says "California Department of Justice letter of approval" will be included and that's what I've been looking to see. Chaingun, those pistol grip replacements will not make an unregistered AR into a PRK legal non AW so the answer is no. There is nothing to stop you from putting one on a registered AR if you happen to like the style! Regarding your comment on sending gogo a lower for modification, it appears they will not modify an unregistered lower for you, only one that you own legally registered in PRK or maybe one you have stored in another state. glock_lobster, they said they had written PRKDOJ permission quite a while ago. I don't think they would proceed with the expense of setting up an assembly line without first knowing they could sell it. As a new product, they are probably just working the production bugs out.
WSmac: Try this; fix up a Tannery lower, then weld a 10 round mag in place. Now you have a gogogadget knockoff, privately built/owned and not for sale to anyone.
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I've had these intentions for quite some time. One suggestion though, even though it's your word against LEO's, is I would not finish a complete lower, with pistol grip, and then modify it as you will have manufactured an illegal AW in the process. I'd block off the mag well bottom first thing so it will never have been an AR at any point.
stator: The pistol grip offered by gogogadgets is still a banned pistol grip by Lockyer's definition. In order to legal use gogogadget's pistol grip, you must modify the trigger to extend below the trigger guard and cover-up the exposed area for the normal trigger. You cannot use any lower that is specifically listed on the AW ban list.
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It looks like they will modify a PRK registered AR lower into a gogogadgets special but it would be foolish to waste one for that purpose. To me, what gogo is creating is not an AR clone or SB23 AW, as it will not take a detachable magazine and holds ten or less rounds. It just happens to look very similar to an AR and, no doubt, is made from the same forged blanks. When a copy of gogo's PRKDOJ letter is posted, we'll know what DOJ thinks.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 11:28:53 AM EST
Church: I live in the SFV area. Anyone have a recommendation on a "good" range I can shoot my AR's at and not get grief? Thanks!!
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Adam, have you tried this range: [url]http://www.angelesranges.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 1:07:34 PM EST
USNvet- I was only referring to the gogogadget's pistol grip. Go to the second page on their website to see this. It meets Lockyer's definition of a pistol grip. So, it's a NOGO for CA. Also, the gogogadget lower must require tools to remove the 10-round mag. If it is removable from the inside (up) and not from the outside like regular ARs, then the DOJ will not allow it. The FAL folks are struggling with this issue right now. They are also having difficulting in getting a response out of the DOJ. Gogogadget maybe experiencing the same problem with getting a response from DOJ.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 1:19:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/11/2001 1:12:33 PM EST by stator]
To add to wath WSmac is saying, you should not need to weld the mag in place. In fact, you don't want to do this when the feed lips become deformed or cracked. The FAL folks are using allen-head set screws to deoperate the mag release button in hopes of eliminating the detachable mag ban of SB23. They don't know if this is acceptable by the CA DOJ yet (or I least I've not heard yet). I'm planning on doing the same thing with a tannery lower should the FAL folks get approval. However, I'm looking at taping threads and placing the set screw on the inside of the lower to disable the mag release. The other option is to follow what User556 is doing. Except mill the lower so that the mag well encompasses the entire 10-round mag. You would just bolt the lower together with the 10-round mag in place. The overall problem is that Lockyer hasn't been specific with what SB23 means with regards to a detachable magazine.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 4:07:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/11/2001 4:01:22 PM EST by USNvet]
stator, what I was getting at is the gogo pistol grip replacement cannot be used to turn an AR into a non AW, just as removing the pistol grip altogether doesn't change it's status. I still see no problem putting one on a registered AR in PRK if someone happens to like those hooks. I'm just guessing, but I'd say the gogogadget's 10 round mag is locked in and the bottom is sealed up. I thought about doing the same thing by screwing a cover plate on the bottom of the mag well with countersunk 2-56 SHCS's and soldering over the screw heads with aluminim solder. The risk is in annealing the lower (7075 T6) in that area, but it should be no problem even if it is a little softer. I was thinking about locking the mag in place by using a SHCS through the magazine release hole so it would pull the release tight. There would be no release button to push but the magazine could be removed with an allen wrench for repairs. The recent lawsuit filed by district attorney's against Caliban's Osama bin Lockyer shows that he has done a poor job of interpreting the law and writing rules. I've been holding off on my project till the laws are clarified, although I did try adding a cover plate with success. I've heard of one or two FAL guys simply pinning (riveting or whatever) a 10 round mag in place. I take it they are riveting through the plate that hangs down on one side of the magazine. Obviously it would take tools to remove the mag. I wonder what DSA is doing? [url]http://www.dsarms.com/SA58_T48_Replica.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 4:47:52 PM EST
Another idea for the magwell. Seal the bottom permanently shut or modify it so it cannot accept a magazine from the outside bottom as is standard for AR's and M-16's, you choose the method. Create a baseplate that holds the magazine spring and follower in place while you insert a flush fitting magazine body in through the top of the lower. When the body is all the way in, you screw in bolts through predrilled/tapped holes in the magwell wall and mag wall. The holes and bolts would, of course need to be placed so the spring and follower (am I spelling that wrong? It looks wrong! Oh well...)are not interfered with when loading and shooting. This way you could allways remove the mag body and spring for repair or replacement. Someone could have probably said this with fewer words, but if you look at my post history I believe I am a bit long winded sometimes. WSmac
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 5:02:00 PM EST
[b]You're missing the point. Even if the kids keep the rifle, they'd never be able to take it out and shoot it. Given that most people understand this fairly well, most of them will be surrendered.[/b] Perhaps But i would still rather hand them down. If i were in such a position (in the distant future) to inherit a few "family heirlooms" I would much rather keep them then surrender them. Even if i could never use them in public. Im willing to bet more than a few people in this country still have great grand dads B.A.R, mp-44 or sten tucked away ilegaly. just because of the centimental value.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 5:12:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By po89mm: Im willing to bet more than a few people in this country still have great grand dads B.A.R, mp-44 or sten tucked away ilegaly. just because of the centimental value.
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i bet alot of people dont even know what they got. an example of that would be a marbles game getter witch meets the defination of a AOW.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 6:46:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/11/2001 6:41:16 PM EST by stator]
The text in the AW ban (we're talking about CA and acquiring an AR-style rifle after Jan2K) says "not requiring tools". Osama Bin Lockyer (USNvet... I like that) had stated that removing mags with bullet tips is considered not using any tool. So this won't work. Plus, this includes designs where the bottom of the AR mag well is covered and the mag is dropped into from the top of the lower (this is what prompted Lockyer ruling regarding bullet tips as not a tool). Unfortunately, O.B. Lockyer hasn't defined want constitutes sufficient use of tool(s) yet. Over on the assault bb, there a some guys that are drilling a hole through the mag release, threading it, and putting a set screw in it. This set screw prevents the mag release from being pressed down enough to release the mag catch. Thus to release the mag, it would require a tool... an allen wrench. That's all they are doing. I understand that this is what Century is doing with their CA FAL. That and adding capability to use a stripper clip much like the M14/M1A.
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 9:28:04 AM EST
As far as the comments on handing down firearms that you cannot use in public, if they take a .22 conversion kit you can shoot in the privacy of any indoor setting that has adequate ventilation and sound buffering. I can shoot in my garage if I want, providing I use an adequate backstop and allow ventilation during and after shooting. Now, some may argue about airborne lead, but I have decided that to my knowledge, I am in no greater harm doing things the way I am. I will not turn around and sue the bullet manufacturers later if I develop some physical problem through my own actions. As for sound, I have my own house with adequate spacing between neighbors. And I don't advertise the fact that I shoot in my garage...oops, uh I mean almost never advertise! [:D] An apartment or townhouse rental would not be as easy. You might have to shoot Colibri type rounds which limits you to single shots instead of semiauto shooting, but you could still shoot. WSmac
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 7:24:54 PM EST
stator, I think you've misread the interpretation of tool/bullets. If the magazine requires a tool to remove it, it isn't a detachable mag. Bullets count as tools!
Article 2. Definitions of Terms Used to Identify Assault Weapons 978.20 Definitions The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1: (a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.
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Also, the way you describe attaching a mag to a FAL with a screw and drilled/tapped mag release is the same as I tried to describe for an AR. I just didn't go into detail. All that needs to be done is cut off the threaded rod part of the release that goes through the receiver to attach to the release button. Then drill/tap the remaining mag release part. A socket head cap screw can then go thru from the right side and lock it down solid. There would be no release button to push, just a countersunk cap screw visible, which would need an allen wrench to remove.
Link Posted: 11/12/2001 7:33:41 PM EST
Apparently, though, the ATF considers things differently for interpreting the 'detachable magazine' part of the 94 AW ban. The given description only applies to detachable magazine as defined by the California state assault weapon ban. To attach a magazine to an AR-15 lower, and have it be acceptable to the ATF as no longer covered by the restrictions of 922(v), the magazine must be made permanently non-detachable, and no longer be readily restorable to accept a detachable magazine. Drilling the lower and pinning the magazine into the magwell, then welding over the pins has been accepted; as has seam-welding the body of the mag along the base of the magwell.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 5:08:04 PM EST
Well, I stand corrected. For that matter, one would only need to recess the mag release button to where a cartrige is needed to press it. Much like the counter-sunk reset buttons on laptops.
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