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Posted: 10/21/2001 7:47:44 PM EDT
I have not read any ATF forms yet but I have marked them. While I do this I wanted input from you guys. How many times do you have to register an SBR with the ATF if the 10" barrel will also be integrally suppressed? Will one $200 tax cover both issues since it is the same barrel? Logic says yes, but we know not to expect that. FYI here is a link to the mockup Kurt is working on right now for me. Post ban lower and upper modified to use Thompson mags. He has to do some work on the bolt next. If it works, I will get a 10" barrel that is integrally suppressed also. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=61880[/url]
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 7:49:14 PM EDT
I believe it's $200 per Firearm regardless... Take care.. John
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 7:55:20 PM EDT
i dont think it is $200 per firearm the way i understand it... if it is a Machine-gun it is not subject to the AW ban therefore can be a SBR and a machine-gun for the same $200 tax HOWEVER if it is just suppressed and has a barrel+suppressor combo less than 16'' it will have 2 tax stamps to pay for ($200 x 2) (it is still a semi therefore has to have an overall 16'' barrel) if the barrel length inside the suppressor is under 16'' it doesnt matter as long as the permanently attached suppressor measures over 16'' i could be wrong, but i think thats how it goes
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 8:51:09 PM EDT
A permanent suppressor with a total barrel length under 16" would just pay one tax. If the silencer is removable and the barrel is less than 16" without it, then the host weapon has to be an SBR or machinegun (2x$200 tax).
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 4:59:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2001 4:54:49 AM EDT by Rabbit9]
Originally Posted By Circuits: A permanent suppressor with a total barrel length under 16" would just pay one tax. If the silencer is removable and the barrel is less than 16" without it, then the host weapon has to be an SBR or machinegun (2x$200 tax).
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I think you meant "over" 16" - and yes I believe that you are right.
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 6:34:41 AM EDT
Nope - I meant exactly what I posted. If the suppressor is permanently attached, and the total length is [b]under[/b] 16", you still only pay one tax. If the suppressor is removable, but the barrel is [b]over[/b] 16" without it, then you pay only the one tax on the suppressor. If the suppressor is removable, and the barrel is [b]under[/b] 16" without it, then you pay two taxes - one for an SBR and one for the suppressor. If the short-barrel is part of a machinegun, then you'd have paid the $200 when you got the machinegun, and not the $200 SBR tax.
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 6:54:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2001 7:04:04 AM EDT by Zoub]
Strictly semi-auto .45acp. The OAL length of the barrel will be 10" and it will be permanently suppressed. The barrel and supressor combined is 10" long, max. Nothing will be removable, no threads on the end of the barrel. This also allows me to not have to use a pre-ban lower and I can spend the money on the suppressed barrel instead. I am trying to build something I really want and do it right the first time. Avoid paying multiple taxes or higher prices for pre-ban parts every time I find out I wish I had done it differently. A supressed SBR in .45 with cheap mags makes me very happy. I can live with semi-auto. Thanks for the help! If I only have to pay $200 to the ATF once, I can use the money I save to buy the new surefire vertical grip for the gun. Zoub
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 7:46:58 AM EDT
doesnt the rifle have to meet a certain overall length to be a rifle and not a SBR? i really thought the suppressor/barrel combo had to be over 16'' how much do thompson mags cost?
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 8:43:57 AM EDT
People in this thread will correct me if I am wrong. Standard rilfe must be 26" long and have a 16" barrel. Example 1: If the barrel and suppressor is 16" long combined and the suppressor is permanently affixed, it must be registered because it is suppressed. It is not considered an SBR even though the actuall barrel may be under 16". The OAL is still 16". Example 2: If the barrel is under 16" and has a REMOVABLE suppressor, even if that suppressor makes the OAL over 16", it is still 2 totally different items. An SBR and a suppressor which can be used on any legally threaded barrel. So you have to register both the supressor and the SBR. Example 3: To have an AR that is registered as an SBR that will also have a threaded barrel to accept a suppressor, you have to build it on a pre-ban lower. So where I end up is instead of spending my money on a used pre-ban lower that is 400% to expensive, I am going to spend my money on a new suppressed barrel that also happens to be an SBR. You only have to register it once, and it will be fun to shoot. And it will use cheap, high capacity mags too. This is just how I have decided to get the most bang for my buck. I may never need a pre-ban lower? 30 round Thompson mags are all over from $10 to $15 used. Around $20 each for like new. Better than what I have to pay for additional 13 round Glock 21 mags.
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 10:49:57 AM EDT
Zoub, you'll still need to use a pre-ban lower to attach a sound suppressor (since it's also considered a flash suppressor). Your other options would be to remove your pistol grip, or make your magazine non-detachable. In your example, you should still only have to pay one tax on the suppressor/SBR combo - since they're an integral unit. You don't have to pay for an SBR tax when you mount a short barrel on a registered machinegun, nor pay a suppressor tax if you have a permanently mounted suppressor on something like an MP5 (where the barrel is not readily removable). A suppressed upper/short barrel combo on an AR might be different, since although the suppressor is fixed, it's still removable, and your ability to put a different, unsuppressed short barrel upper on later might cause you to have to pay both an SBR and suppressor tax. Best to write to ATF for guidance on that particular combination. Just remember that a sound suppressor is a flash suppressor, whether it's permanent or threaded or quick-detach - you can't do one on a post-ban AR rifle.
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 11:45:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Circuits: A suppressed upper/short barrel combo on an AR might be different, since although the suppressor is fixed, it's still removable, and your ability to put a different, unsuppressed short barrel upper on later might cause you to have to pay both an SBR and suppressor tax. Best to write to ATF for guidance on that particular combination.
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I've recently done this. Did an SBR Form 1 on the pre-ban lower and a Form 4 on my internally suppressed upper I bought from Clyde Wilson of Coastal Gun (9mm conversion- and it's awesome). So, yes, you have to pay both taxes for a total of $400.00.
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 11:53:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Circuits: Nope - I meant exactly what I posted. If the suppressor is permanently attached, and the total length is [b]under[/b] 16", you still only pay one tax. If the suppressor is removable, but the barrel is [b]over[/b] 16" without it, then you pay only the one tax on the suppressor. If the suppressor is removable, and the barrel is [b]under[/b] 16" without it, then you pay two taxes - one for an SBR and one for the suppressor. If the short-barrel is part of a machinegun, then you'd have paid the $200 when you got the machinegun, and not the $200 SBR tax.
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Sorry CIRCUITS, I've gone this route, and ANY rifle(don't include AOW's) under 16" is an SBR.
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 4:47:59 PM EDT
A machinegun is not an SBR. Even if the machinegun is a removable conversion part, the mg lower does not need to registered as an SBR if you only put short barrel uppers on it when the machinegun conversion is installed. If the conversion is removable and you want to leave the short upper on it when the conversion is out, you *can* register the lower as an SBR, exclusive of the mg status, but it's not required if you keep them married. Similarly, on a weapon where the barrel is permanently installed, like an HK MP5 (or SP89/HK94), or pressed-barrel HK, I'm not sure you'd need a separate SBR registration if the upper also included a permanent, integral suppressor. Steve - no doubt you can register the suppressor and lower separately, but is it REQUIRED for a short-barrel/integral suppressor combo? It might be, but I'm not so certain it wouldn't be worth a letter to the tech branch to clarify which tax is required and which is superceded by other permanent NFA features. Is there a letter in bardwell's archive covering this? I guess the interesting test cases would be: 1) An integrally-suppressed short-barrel MP5 submachinegun. To my understanding, the short-barrel and integral suppressor are folded together with the one machinegun tax stamp - $200 total. 2) An integrally-suppressed short-barrel HK94 semi-auto (pre-ban). To my understanding this would also require only one tax stamp - or is the covering of features only provided to machineguns? If so, is there any written documentation that multiple features (otherwise covered under one machinegun stamp) are not covered for non-machineguns? I welcome more dialogue on the topic.
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 6:03:51 PM EDT
According to the green book a muffler or firearm silencer is a NFA firearm, one stamp. A SBR is a firearm defined by the NFA, on more stamp. Sorry, it's going to cost you $400.
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 6:52:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/22/2001 7:02:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hallmark_Ent: According to the green book a muffler or firearm silencer is a NFA firearm, one stamp. A SBR is a firearm defined by the NFA, on more stamp. Sorry, it's going to cost you $400.
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That's simply not true, hallmark. A machinegun like an MP5 or a MAC 10, with an integral suppressor, where the barrel is not readily removable DOES transfer on one $200 stamp. That's not speculation - but established fact - I've seen it done.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 3:23:58 AM EDT
I suggest the individual with the question contact the ATF Tech brach. Circuits, why don't you take on the task of researching this and quote the code out of the green book that will enlighten us to the mysteries of federal firearm regulations.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 3:41:35 AM EDT
This should gray things up: DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, D.C. 20226 AUG 05 1997 Dear : E:RE:FN:GS 179.11/97-1858 This is in response to your letter of March 25, 1997, regarding a "suppressed machinegun" registered to your client. You advise that the machinegun is equipped with an integral silencer and there is no registration document for the silencer, but the silencer is removable from the machinegun. We consider the combination of a machinegun and silencer to be one unit subject to registration when the silencer is integral to the machinegun, such as when it is permanently affixed to the machinegun (not just to the barrel). A removable silencer is a separate unit, which requires registration. An existing, unregistered silencer may not be registered by your client. In order for your client to continue to possess the silencer, it must be permanently affixed to the machinegun. We apologize for the delay in responding to your request. Should any additional information be needed, please contact us at (202) 927-8330. Sincerely yours, Nereida W. Levine Chief, National Firearms Act Branch DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, DC 20226 E:CE:FT:RAT 3311 JUL 15 1997 Dear : This refers to Your letter of May 17, 1997, in which you ask if you could buy and possess a ported barrel designed to fit onto a Swedish K and use it with your registered firearm silencer which is designed for use with the Smith & Wesson (S&W), Model 76 machinegun. As defined Title 18 United States Code (U.S.C.), chapter 44, section 921(a) (24), the term "firearm silencer" and "firearm muffler" means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication. A firearm barrel, ported and threaded at its muzzle, which is intended for use in the assembly of a firearm silencer would meet the above definition, Therefore, the barrel in question would have to be registered in accordance with the provisions of the National Firearms Act. We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may be of further assistance, please contact us. Sincerely yours, Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 4:18:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 4:54:26 AM EDT
Either way this thing is bad!!!! I'll wait a little bit and make sure with the prices, but I am sure I will be adding one of these to the arsenal:)
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 8:08:58 AM EDT
I see some "gray". It states "affixed to the machinegun, not just to the barrel". An AR upper is removable. So that feels fuzzy to me, but I am not an expert in anything so everything is fuzzy to me. One thing I have heard consistently from people here and else where is the barrel with integral silencer is probably one unit. Even if it happens to be an SBR. Now I am going to read some more on pre-ban issues since I also wanted to put this on a post ban lower. I originally thougth that would be OK, but may not be. I appreciate the help. I feel educated enough to ask the right questions of the ATF. Once I get done with this, I will go about getting the Brady Bill changed for you guys!! What a pain in the ass. I was fine before I discovered AR's.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 9:12:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Circuits:
Originally Posted By Hallmark_Ent: According to the green book a muffler or firearm silencer is a NFA firearm, one stamp. A SBR is a firearm defined by the NFA, on more stamp. Sorry, it's going to cost you $400.
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That's simply not true, hallmark. A machinegun like an MP5 or a MAC 10, with an integral suppressor, where the barrel is not readily removable DOES transfer on one $200 stamp. That's not speculation - but established fact - I've seen it done.
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You guys are talking apples and oranges. Circuits, Hallmark is referring to the creation of an SBR, which has to assume the lower was non-NFA to begin with, otherwise there would not be a need to create an SBR. So, in that context, he's right, two stamps. One to create the SBR and one to possess, legally, the suppressor. In the AR example, you need both stamps. Hallmark, Circuits is referring to an MG that is already an NFA weapon (by virtue of it being a registered MG), no need for the Form 1 since the NFA weapon can already be "short". If you have a non-NFA weapon and you "make" it an SBR, it becomes an NFA weapon sorta, since it is otherwise suject to the provisions of 18 USC 921. That's different than having an already registered MG that has an internal suppressor- No need for two stamps. Caveat: I think the AR example creates a wrinkle since the upper is separate and not part of the registered MG. In that case, I believe Hallmark is right again, you would still need two stamps. Not so for the MP5-SD example where the suppressor is internal.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 12:12:49 PM EDT
I was always talking apples, the creation of a SBR using an AR15 lower and then adding a suppressed upper. With oranges and MP5SD's the ATF position is clear. I hate all this your wrong I'm right crap, just trying to help. Can't we all just get along? Hallmark Enterprises also Steve in VA just not the "Steve in VA" Steve in VA, when you go for FFL again email me, I just had mine approved and will let you know my experiences if your interested.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 12:48:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hallmark_Ent: I hate all this your wrong I'm right crap, just trying to help. Can't we all just get along?
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I think we were all right, just on different pages. [;)]
Steve in VA, when you go for FFL again email me, I just had mine approved and will let you know my experiences if your interested.
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I will! I just have to get passed this wedding thing, it's milking me like frikin' cereal.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 2:14:07 PM EDT
One more question. Forgot to ask? Does the ATF take VISA or MC?! In the end I will have another gun, and it will be legal. I can fix it after 2004. I figured the best way for me to get familiar with the laws was to go out and make something a little different like an SBR in a pistol caliber. I will enjoy it suppressed or not, and I will be more familiar with the process and the ATF when I am done. We need to start our own "Anti" group. Anti's get more press. We are Anti-Brady Bill. In order to get press, we have to be victims!
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