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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 9/5/2001 9:15:22 AM EDT
Help!!! I just finished building my AR-15 in the post ban 20" A2 configuration. I am using an Upper from American Spirit Arms and a Lower which I built myself using a raw casting with no serial numbers on it. I was told by a local gun dealer (Los Angeles) that it is illegal for me to own this weapon and that I need to turn it in to the local authorities or destroy the gun myself. What advice can I get from someone in this forum. Any useful help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 10:01:53 AM EDT
Your dealer's basically right - that weapon is currently illegal to own in California, unless you owned it on or before the effective date of SB23 or the additions to the RR89 assault weapon bans, and legally registered them before the deadline. There's a recent California Supreme Court decision wich could change the law for a home-built, provided you remove the pistol grip. It's flat-out illegal to own with the pistol grip installed, though, and currently illegal under California DOJ guidelines.
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 6:11:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 7:25:15 PM EDT
You might try altering it for a max 10 round capacity like these guys do: [url]http://www.gogogadgets.net/[/url]. Or try contacting them to see if they will do it for you. The trouble is, they have a notice on their web site asking for a signed statement that you legally possess the lower. If you had sent it to them in the 80% condition it should have been no problem, but now that it is finished you may be up the creek.
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 7:22:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2001 7:23:56 AM EDT by California_Kid]
The impact of the latest CA SC ruling on the legality of your stripped, unmarked lower receiver is certainly not clear. I'm not completely in agreement with Troy that any unregistered lower that is not specifically on the make and model list is illegal. Troy is more qualified than I am to make such a statement, but I haven't heard of anyone getting busted for one, and the DoJ has not clarified its position since the ruling. However, with the rifle ASSEMBLED with a pistol grip it is definitely illegal. One course of action you might consider is to disassemble the rifle and wait until the law settles out a little better. It is possible that you may eventually have a window of opportunity in which to register the lower, then assemble it in any legal (i.e. federal post-ban) configuration you like. If I were in your shoes I certainly would NOT surrender or destroy that lower that you put a bunch of time and effort into. Just don't get accosted by a hostile law enforcement officer with an assembled, unregistered AR-15.
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 10:14:04 AM EDT
1. What is considered an assault weapon under California law? There are three categories of assault weapons under California law. The first category is firearms listed on the original Roberti-Roos assault weapons list (Penal Code section 12276, subds (a), (b), and (c)). The second category of assault weapons is AK and AR-15 series weapons (Penal Code sections 12276 (e) and (f)). The third category of assault weapons is defined by specific generic characteristics (PC section 12276.1, SB 23). 2. edited- wsmac 3. What are AK and AR-15 series weapons? Any firearm which is a variation, with minor differences, of the AK or AR-15 type (i.e., series weapon), regardless of manufacturer, is an assault weapon under the original Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989. AK and AR-15 series weapons could no longer be purchased as of August 16, 2000. 4.edited - wsmac 5. Which assault weapons can and cannot be registered? The assault weapon registration period has ended. The DOJ is no longer accepting new assault weapon registration forms. The only exception applies to persons who have been arrested for possession of an unregistered assault weapon. Such a person may be eligible, through December 31, 2001, to have the charge reduced to an infraction if he or she meets the specific conditions described in Penal Code section 12280(c). One of these conditions requires that the person register the assault weapon with the DOJ. The DOJ will accept a registration from such a person if he or she provides the DOJ with documentation substantiating his or her arrest. However, this option is only available for assault weapons as defined by characteristics that are not Roberti-Roos assault weapons or AK or AR-15 series weapons. 6.7.8. & 9.10.11. 12. 13.14. edited - wsmac 15. I want to keep my assault weapon defined by characteristics (PC section 12276.1, SB 23). What am I required to do? If you are still in possession of an unregistered assault weapon, you may not keep it. Your only option is to relinquish it to a law enforcement agency. 16. I do not want to keep my assault weapon. What do I do? If you have an unregistered assault weapon, you must relinquish it to law enforcement. edited - wsmac 17. If I did not register my assault weapon by the registration deadline, is there any way I can legally keep it? No. If you did not register your assault weapon prior to the registration deadline, you must relinquish that assault weapon to a law enforcement agency. Failure to relinquish your unregistered assault weapon could result in arrest and a felony conviction. The only exception applies to persons who have been arrested for possession of an unregistered assault weapon. Such a person may be eligible, through December 31, 2001, to have the charge reduced to an infraction if he or she meets the specific conditions described in Penal Code section 12280(c). One of these conditions requires that the person register the assault weapon with the DOJ. The DOJ is accepting registration forms from these persons if they provide the DOJ with documentation substantiating their arrest. However, this option is only available for assault weapons as defined by characteristics that are not Roberti-Roos assault weapons or AK or AR-15 series weapons.
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 10:25:45 AM EDT
Sorry the previous post was so long, here's another one - just joking. This is pasted from the CA DOJ site FAQ's on AW. Be sure to notice that it often states that AK & AR "series" weapons are illegal to own unless legally registered before the cutoff date a while back. In #'s 5 & 17 you would NOT fit into the category allowed to register after being caught with an unregistered AW, because you own an AR "series" firearm. Unless the court ruling changes that. As stated above, you Have made an AW, so in any case it is an illegal firearm. By law in California, your ONLY legal action is to now turn in your firearm to the authorities (One of the parts I edited out recommends you call the agency your turning it in to, instead of walking in unannounced. I think you need to take some time and make this decision on your own with the information you've been given. I would recommend you cease further communication with unknown (even known in some cases) persons concerning your firearm until you resolve this issue in a manner that you are comfortable living with. guess this was kinda long WSmac
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 10:27:21 AM EDT
Folks... There may be one way to kinda legally register it. I'm not sure I have all the facts right, so let's look into it I believe that if in 2001 you have one unreg'd Kalif A.W. (registerable due to SB23 and not Roberti-Roos) and are arrested for it, it is an infraction and you are allowed to file paperwork for it. This appears to be the only way DOJ accepts late paperwork. This may not apply to possession of multiple SB23 AWs, and certainly doesn't apply to old 1990s Roberti-Roos "named 56" AWs. -Bill San Mateo, CA
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 10:32:06 AM EDT
Folks, I lurk a lot - and don't say much...but I would like to say Never-ever register your guns!! My memory fades as I get older, but isn't PRK the state that required folks to register a certain type of weapon, then did a OOPs and confiscated them? I personally cannot understand how folks could be so trusting... (whew! I feel better now that I've put my $0.02 in the pot)
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 10:39:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2001 10:43:07 AM EDT by WSmac]
I'm not sure how detailed the definition of an AR series lower is. I would assume that DOJ would see any lower that accepted an AR type upper, accepted AR mags, etc. would be considered an AR "series" AW. In other words, if you took an ugly block of aluminum and just did the necessary drilling/millng to fit internal/external AR parts, it would be a "series" AW and illegal. This is not counting the recent ruling. The clause you mention concerning "possible" registering after an "infraction" only applies to non - AR, AK "series" AW's. I personally believe that owning an 80% lower would not be illegal in CA, since it is not a firearm. Any other opinions on that? p.s. I don't see where the registration of AW's after you're caught in possession (#'s 5 & 17 again) is automatic. I'm sure the AG could find a reason why a person shouldn't own the firearm in question, or make it expensive and hard to get it back (e.g. personal legal fees...)
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 6:16:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:58:52 AM EDT
The AR-10 is explicitly listed on page 73 of the December 2000 Assault Weapons Identification Guide as a (Kassler v. Lockyer) or "Category 2" assault weapon. That's pretty clear. (Unconstitutional IMO but clear.) The part of the law that came into question as I understand the recent SCOCR ruling is the language that attempts to generically include items that are essentially the same regardless of manufacturer - IOW things like someone's homemade stripped lower receiver marked "Fudd Arms Super-Duper Wabbit Killer". As I understand the ruling, if it's not specifically on the list it can't be called an AW unless it has evil features like a pistol grip, grenade launcher, folding stock, etc. In my largely unqualified opinion, unmarked, unlisted stripped lower receivers are in limbo until the law is revised or at least until the DoJ issues some regulations (which can be questioned in court). You can't register them, you can't sell them or give them away, you can't build them into a complete rifle. They are legally firearms but not necessarily AWs. But there is no question that an unmarked lower assembled with a pistol grip is an SB-23 AW.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:13:24 AM EDT
You could delete this thread and keep quiet about the whole thing. It might be a good idea actually..
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:36:39 AM EDT
bioinst8, MOVE! Get the hell out of that goofy state as soon as you can (As it happens, my place of birth and upfetchin' was LaLa Land.). I could be wrong...but I'm pretty sure that The Kid and WSmac are right on the money when they advise you that the weapon is totally illegal in PRK. Now you can take the risk and just stash it somewhere you think is safe...but don't try to shoot it anywhere, 'cause you never know who the gent is next to you...BATF...local gendarmes...FBI...or any sworn officer who won't look the other way. Sorry I can't offer any positive info. That place ain't likely to change any time soon...so like I said...get out! Damn I like going to the range and blasting off a thousand rounds or more! And nobody complains! Ain't it great living in Virginia? Sic Semper Tyrannis (Thus Always to Tyrants!) Good Luck to you anyway. Aim small...miss small. [heavy]
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 6:39:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LWilde: ...Now you can take the risk and just stash it somewhere you think is safe...but don't try to shoot it anywhere, 'cause you never know who the gent is next to you...BATF...local gendarmes...FBI...or any sworn officer who won't look the other way....[heavy]
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OTOH sometimes the best place to do something illegal is right in front of a cop. Unless an ATF officer (more likely two or three of them) is actually doing some kind of sweep or busting your shooting range for something illegal they think the owners did, it's very unlikely that any LEO is going to mess with you. The cop in the lane next to you is honing his or her skills, sighting in a weapon, function-firing it, or just blowing off steam just like everybody else. Talking to a cop at your favorite range is like talking to a schoolteacher or minister in a bar. They're off-duty.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 12:25:18 AM EDT
First, read the laws off the CA-DOJ site. Here's a suggestion. The "detachable magazine" paragraph says a magazine that has to use a tool to remove, it also states a bullet can be considered a "tool." Take your mag release and grind it off below the surface of the lower so you have to use a "tool" to remove it, no "detachable mag" no AW. Another thought I had would be to drill and tap a small hole in the side of the mag release and put an allen screw in there. Make it so you have to remove the set screw in order to press the mag release (carry extra screws in case you loose it or you really could be screwed!) DISCLAIMER: These suggestions only seem to fulfill the requirements, I have not checked with the DOJ on what they think of them. Even if they turn out to be legal, you might spend a lot of time and money proving it. Do so at your own risk.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 3:09:42 PM EDT
You can try to accept the "infraction" and apply for a registration after the 12/31/2000 cutoff. In my opinion, it would be a cold day in Hell before the application would be approved. You are free to try and get acceptance, but I can't see that happening, given the state AG and his position on guns of all stripes. Then, you'd have the "infraction" on your record, and still have to destroy / surrender / or sell out of state the weapon. Or, just hold on to it, ansd hope that the political climate changes and you can bring it back in. Which is unlikely as well.
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