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Posted: 5/19/2001 4:39:49 AM EDT
Would it be legal to build a rifle (16" bbl) with no buttstock, but with a pistol buffer tube in it's place?
Link Posted: 5/19/2001 2:55:10 PM EDT
I would think that as long as the total length of the rifle was 26" you could.
Link Posted: 5/19/2001 6:15:28 PM EDT
Yes you could, it would be called an "ANY OTHER WEAPON" (AOW). You would need to add a forward pistol grip, and it would be exempt from a minimum length barrel requirement AND you could have all of the evil features that the 94 crime bill prohibits. You will need to pay the BATF a $200 manufacturing tax and then subject yourself to an FBI background check, plus you would need your local LEO to sign off on it. You could never put any type of a stock on it again though. You could build it as a Short Barreled Rifle, but you can not remove the stock. Same fees as above apply. 27CFR, VOL I, Parts 1 - 199 Part 178 sec 178.11 pg 391 PISTOL: A weapon originaly designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand and having: (a) A chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permmanently alinged with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s). RIFLE: A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metalic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each pull of the trigger. SHORT BARRELED RIFLE: A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, wether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches. Part 179 Sect 179.11 ANY OTHER WEAPON: Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
Link Posted: 5/19/2001 6:17:22 PM EDT
[url]http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter78.txt[/url] DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Washington, D.C. 20226 NOV 25 1997 F:SD:FTB:GKD 3311 Dear Mr. : This refers to your letter of November 6, 1997, requesting information on the manufacture of a firearm to be classified as an "any other weapon," as that term is defined in the National Firearms Act (NFA). You describe the proposed firearm as being manufactured using an AR15 type lower receiver that has never been assembled as a complete firearm and installing a "pistol length barrel," a rear pistol grip, a vertical foregrip, shrouded barrel and a flash hider. This firearm would utilize a detachable magazine installed outside the pistol grip. A firearm manufactured from the described components and in the described manner would not be a pistol as defined in either Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 178 or 179, nor would it be classified as a rifle or shotgun, not being designed to be held and fired from the shoulder. Further, it is not classified as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in Title 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 921(a)(30), hence it is not subject to the prohibition on the manufacture, transfer or possession of semiautomatic assault weapons as provided in Title 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 922(v). The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has previously held that a firearm of the type described in your letter is classified as an "any other weapon" and is subject to all of the provisions of the NFA. Such a firearm could legally be manufactured and transferred by a Class II manufacturer. An unlicensed individual could manufacture such a firearm by first submitting an AT Form 1, APPLICATION TO MAKE AND REGISTER A FIREARM, to ATF. Upon receipt of the approved form, the individual could then proceed to manufacture the firearm. - 2 - Mr. We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us. Sincerely yours, [signed] Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Link Posted: 5/20/2001 4:39:59 AM EDT
If the lower had been previously assembled into a rifle, it cannot be made into an AOW because it has already had a stock on it. If you started with a brand new, never assembled stripped frame it would be an AOW, but if you started with a lower you already assembled into a rifle, you could just slap the pistol buffer on and enjoy yourself, as long as the overall length is >26". If the OAL is less then 26", it has to be a SBR. Kharn
Link Posted: 5/20/2001 8:01:08 AM EDT
Not quite.... >If the lower had been previously assembled >into a rifle, it cannot be made into an AOW >because it has already had a stock on it. True >If you started with a brand new, never >assembled stripped frame it would be an AOW, True It could also be a SBR or a pistol. >but if you started with a lower you already >assembled into a rifle, Key word is RIFLE, once a rifle, always a rifle. When you remove the stock it is no longer a rifle. It is then either a pistol or an AOW. >you could just slap the pistol buffer on and >enjoy yourself, as long as the overall length >is >26". If the OAL is less then 26", it has >to be a SBR. See above. Rule of thumb: Once a rifle, always a rifle. Once a pistol, always a pistol (except you can put on a removable shoulder stock). Under 26 inches overall length, it's either a short barreled rifle or an AOW. Remove the stock and it's an AOW. Having a barrel less than 16 inches and it's a SBR. Key definitions: Rifle: Fired from the shoulder. Short Barreled Rifle: Made from a rifle, barrel length is under 16 inches or the overall length is less than 26 inches. Pistol: Ability to accept a detachable magazine and 2 of the following: (a) magazine that attaches outside of the pistol grip, (b) threaded barrel that can accept a barrel extender, flash hider, forward hand grip or a silencer, (c) a shroud that is attached to, or partialy or completely encircles the barrel, that permits the shooter to hold the weapon with the non-trigger finger without being burned, (d) weighs 50 ounces or more with the pistol unloaded, and (e) a semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm. Silly laws I know, but like I said, you can not make a rifle into a pistol, removing the stock makes it a non shoulder fired weapon. If (like the Professional Ordnance pistol) you make it weigh under 50 ounces unloaded, no barrel threads and no forward hand grip/guard then it would be legal. So again, the answer to your question is no, you can not build a rifle without having a stock, and the pistol buffer tube is not considered to be a stock.
Link Posted: 5/20/2001 8:58:13 AM EDT
ClearFire: You might want to check with the ATF on their definitions for SBR/AOW, and their criteria. As you can see, the text of the NFA is rather hard for most people to understand, and the ATF is able to interpret as they see fit. The ATF believes that if a weapon is a rifle, it can never be anything other then a rifle (not counting machine guns, as thats a whole different ball game), of course it could be a SBR, but it can never be made into a pistol because it was manufactured/sold with a stock. The ATF also believes that if a weapon has had a shoulder stock at ANY time, it can never be an AOW. Kharn
Link Posted: 5/20/2001 9:43:30 AM EDT
Ahhhh, yea, that's what I said. The original question is "Would it be legal to build a rifle (16" bbl) with no buttstock, but with a pistol buffer tube in it's place?" I am talking about building one from the ground up. Please don't get confused over my explination, each and every weapon I am talking about building I am using a never registered lower, the builder can register that lower anyway they see fit. All I am doing is describing what can and can not be done in regards to the 27 CFR. You can build an AR15 rifle, post ban legal. Once it is a rifle you can never remove the stock. You can build that rifle into a short barreled rifle if you want by adding a shorter barrel or by making its overall length less than 26 inches. You can build an AR15 pistol. Once a pistol, always a pistol (except you can add a removable shoulder stock) To build your AR15 pistol it can only have two of the following, including a detachable magazine: 1. magazine outside the pistol grip 2. threaded barrel, etc, etc 3. any type of a barrel shroud 4. weighs more than 50 ounces 5. based on a fully automatic weapon (the Professional Ordnance pistol has the detchable magazine, magazine outside of the pistol grip, and weighs less than 50 ounces) There is no legal way (with the current laws) that he can build an AR15 without the stock using only the buffer tube unless he registers it as an AOW. He will still need to add a forward grip and do the ATF / FBI BS. >The ATF believes that if a weapon is a rifle, >it can never be anything other then a rifle >(not counting machine guns, as thats a whole >different ball game), of course it could be a >SBR, I said once a rifle, always a rifle. A rifle is defined as being fired from the shoulder. You need a stock to do that. >but it can never be made into a pistol because >it was manufactured/sold with a stock. I also said that. >The ATF also believes that if a weapon has had >a shoulder stock at ANY time, it can never be >an AOW. I also said that. The best part about building an AOW is that if you are approved you can have a threaded barrel, flash hider and a bayonet lug on it. You can also have as long or as short of a barrel as you want. It is exempt from the 94 crime bill BS. Everthing I posted from the CFR and from that ATF reply states that an AOW must be built on a new never registered lower.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 6:07:46 PM EDT
Does it have to have a vertical foregrip to be an AOW? How about just a handguard or barrel shroud?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 5:37:14 AM EDT
These are the problems I'm tring to work out now.If you refer to the "build it youeself" section, Im in the process of tring to build an AOW. To be an AR AOW it has to have NO stock and a forward vertical hand grip. Vent guards shouds etc. dont count. My question to any of you is, on a from 1 can I my my own AOW from scratch (the key being I will make all the parts, no striped lowers, all hand made by me)? Then how do I fill out the papers (form 1) Manufacture? Address? Thanks
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 8:55:10 PM EDT
[url]http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/index.html[/url] Zman, check out the above URL. You will need to do some digging to find it. Just from a quick mental check without looking up actual references or laws you should be able to: Build your own lower to make an AOW. (meets the requirement of never been a rifle) (William of the Tannery Shop and a few others know the in's and out's of how you have to make an 80% lower) You are still going to have to have a serial number and manufacturers markings on it in order to register it anyways. The above URL has a link to a web page that is an on-line interactive form filler.
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