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dbrowne1
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Posted: 3/3/2004 3:05:41 PM EST
Assuming that the AWB does in fact sunset in September, will owners of "post-ban" firearms be allowed to reconfigure these firearms to include 2 or more of the previously banned items?"

If you did this today, you would be manufacturing an "assault weapon" which is illegal under current law. Remember, this is a ban on manufacturing and importing. However, the act of manufacturing or importing an "assault weapon" becomes legal on September 14, 2004.

Some people have opined that a post-ban firearm cannot be modified in this manner because it was made during the ban period. This makes no sense to me. A "post ban" gun is legally meaningless within the context of the AW ban - it is legally no different than a bolt action Mauser. Thus, were one to add the evil features after it is no longer illegal to do so, I simply don't see a problem.

Comments? Other opinions?
cmjohnson
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Posted: 3/3/2004 3:11:52 PM EST
It's very, very, very simple. When the ban sunsets, NO PART OF IT WILL BE IN EFFECT ANYMORE. That's what sunsetting is all about. The law goes away. Now ask yourself, with no law prohibiting you from reconfiguring your rifle to be just like a pre-ban one, what law would be broken by doing so? Think, man, think! CJ
"Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night."....Thulsa Doom
3gunguy
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Posted: 3/3/2004 6:39:18 PM EST
Ok Fellas! Here is one for you...what about magazines marked "govt use/LEO/export" and any other such horse hoofer.... what happens to that stuff? Thoughts...theories? and ..is there anyone versed in legaleze that can start to provide definitive answers instead of thoughts, guesses, opinions and such? Nothing against you fellas....but we all know that logic is not a requirement for legislation and we are talkin some serious laws here... Thanks! [usa]
dbrowne1
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Posted: 3/4/2004 7:36:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: It's very, very, very simple.
No, it's not necessarily "very, very, very simple." And 3gunguy, I am a lawyer, I am well trained in "legalese." There are situations where a law is no longer in effect can create lingering issues.
New_Pup_101
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Posted: 3/4/2004 11:34:27 AM EST
I sure hope we can modify our post bans. I live in the People's Republic of CA, so I can't get any more AWs than the ones I already own and have had to register. I hope atleast I could add to my "registered AW" that are post ban and not allowed to be a real AW under the Federal Ban. Did everyone get that? My post-bans are registered as an AW in the state of CA, but not allowed to have AW characteristics! I hate these laws. Make them go away!!!
Right-to-Bear
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Posted: 3/4/2004 11:51:35 AM EST
yes, you will be able to add the other "evil" features to post-ban weapons, because with the lapse of the ban they are magically not evil anymore. The ban will no longer exist. So long as you don't violate any other existing federal law (i.e. barrell must be at least 16") you will be fine. Someone help me out here.... I though the ban on hi-cap mags was separate from the AWB. Is that incorrect?
dbrowne1
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Posted: 3/4/2004 12:39:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By Right-to-Bear: yes, you will be able to add the other "evil" features to post-ban weapons, because with the lapse of the ban they are magically not evil anymore. The ban will no longer exist. So long as you don't violate any other existing federal law (i.e. barrell must be at least 16") you will be fine. Someone help me out here.... I though the ban on hi-cap mags was separate from the AWB. Is that incorrect?
They were passed as part of the same legislation. They are codified at different subsections of 18 USC 922 (v and w, I believe) but both provisions are set to expire. Reading the law more carefully, it would also seem that "LE-Only" SAWs and hicap magazines would now become just like any other firearm or magazine, despite their markings, once the ban sunsets.
cmjohnson
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Posted: 3/4/2004 4:10:43 PM EST
Yes, LEO marked magazines would have no remaining restrictions on them. They could be legally bought and sold by anybody. It IS this simple: When a law expires, it's DONE and can no longer be enforced, period. CJ
"Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night."....Thulsa Doom
Steve-in-VA
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Posted: 3/4/2004 4:25:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By dbrowne1: Some people have opined that a post-ban firearm cannot be modified in this manner because it was made during the ban period.
Where did you read/hear this? If the law is abrogated or otherwise ceases to exist, there is no legal way to violate it (unless of course the act occurred during the ban).
"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
dbrowne1
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Posted: 3/4/2004 5:09:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA:
Originally Posted By dbrowne1: Some people have opined that a post-ban firearm cannot be modified in this manner because it was made during the ban period.
Where did you read/hear this? If the law is abrogated or otherwise ceases to exist, there is no legal way to violate it (unless of course the act occurred during the ban).
First off, I agree with you, as I said in the first post here. Being the paranoid person that I am, however, I like to get other opinions, particularly from people like you. A relatively new poster on the general board said that he talked to some unnamed people from ATF while at a range, who said that it had already been decided that what are currently known as "post-ban" firearms cannot be converted to what what currently be considered a "SAW" after the ban sunsets. Sounded about as credible as "my girlfriend's uncle's babysitter's dogwalker's buddy who is an armored car driver said so." His statements didn't make sense, but the mention of "ATF" and "decided" created all sorts of ooo's and aahhh's in the crowd over there. Personally, I don't really care, as I own no "post-ban" firearms currently. I do have along list of stuff to buy on September 14, though.
cmjohnson
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Posted: 3/4/2004 5:17:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By dbrowne1: A relatively new poster on the general board said that he talked to some unnamed people from ATF while at a range, who said that it had already been decided that what are currently known as "post-ban" firearms cannot be converted to what what currently be considered a "SAW" after the ban sunsets.
If the ATF were to attempt to make such a ludicrous ruling, it could be ignored with impunity, as all rulings must have a basis in the written letter of the laws IN EFFECT. It'd be tossed out by ANY judge who had any honesty in hiim whatsoever. ATF rulings with no basis in law are INVALID rulings. CJ
"Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night."....Thulsa Doom
3gunguy
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Posted: 3/6/2004 1:41:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2004 1:43:44 PM EST by 3gunguy]
Once Again Fellas, Here are my two cents and I am sure thats all this is worth: 1. The ATF can and has done anything it so choses and it will in this case almost cetainly clarify how things will be after the ban sunsets. IE....LEO mags...may remain as such..but new production is no longer prohibited..ETC....in expectation that the ban may be reenacted at some later date. 2. cmjohnson..I know this room is made up of all sorts of various tough guys...you go ahead and mess with the ATF...and let a judge decide. Sounds like fun...gettin hooked up...all your stuff confiscated...legal fees...sittin in a cell...three years of trial..just to leave it up to 12 people too dumb to get out of jury duty...NO THANKS! 3. There is simply no way to know exactly how this will affect all of us. I hope it is as simple as you all say...but it is 6 months away. I want to go on a shopping spree on sept 14 too but instead of all of us giving opinions and thoughts and what we are all going to do and stomping our feet...we should look to research this and see if there is some plan by the ATF on how they plan on dealing with this...because what they say goes. [usa]
cmjohnson
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Posted: 3/6/2004 3:48:47 PM EST
Fact: Ever ATF ruling MUST have a legitimate basis IN THE LETTER OF THE LAW, and that law MUST be an ACTIVE, on the books law, not one that has sunset or been repealed. And that interpretation (ruling) must be something that CAN be read from the law. With the AW ban no longer an active law, SHOW ME what federal law would prohibit you from adding the "evil features" to your rifle made during the ban. Show me that other law. I promise, unless another LAW comes into existence that keeps me from doing so, I'll add those features to any ban-era rifle I own if I so choose to do so. If the ATF tries to say I can't do it, I'll send them a registered letter (or more precisely, my attorney will) that demands that they show cause for that decision based on the letter of the laws CURRENTLY IN FORCE. Failure to prove a connection between the ruling and the laws IN FORCE constitutes acknowledgement of the illegitimacy of the ruling, and any attempts to enforce that illegitimate ruling will result in lawsuits being filed for a variety of charges beginning with false arrest and false imprisonment. I'm quite serious. CJ
"Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night."....Thulsa Doom
Model_One
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Posted: 3/6/2004 9:31:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By 3gunguy: Once Again Fellas, Here are my two cents and I am sure thats all this is worth: 1. The ATF can and has done anything it so choses and it will in this case almost cetainly clarify how things will be after the ban sunsets. IE....LEO mags...may remain as such..but new production is no longer prohibited..ETC....in expectation that the ban may be reenacted at some later date. 2. cmjohnson..I know this room is made up of all sorts of various tough guys...you go ahead and mess with the ATF...and let a judge decide. Sounds like fun...gettin hooked up...all your stuff confiscated...legal fees...sittin in a cell...three years of trial..just to leave it up to 12 people too dumb to get out of jury duty...NO THANKS! 3. There is simply no way to know exactly how this will affect all of us. I hope it is as simple as you all say...but it is 6 months away. I want to go on a shopping spree on sept 14 too but instead of all of us giving opinions and thoughts and what we are all going to do and stomping our feet...we should look to research this and see if there is some plan by the ATF on how they plan on dealing with this...because what they say goes. [usa]
And we wonder how our rights are taken away. They aren't taken away, we GIVE them away when people don't bother to learn the law and the way our legal system works, and assert their rights. Case in point: This guy is so afraid of the ATF bogeyman that rather than look into the facts, he's actually giving consideration to continuing to obey this stupid, freedom-stealing law even after it's repealed, just in case, just to be SAFE. Good thing the men who fought the British in 1776 weren't such a bunch of sheeple. If this is the best we can do, we might as well just hang it up 'cause we're fucked. 3gunguy, grow a set and learn how our system works, because it's all we have - and it's all we need. I hate to break it to you, but the black helicopter crowd down at the local range are the equivalent of a bunch of third-graders scaring each other with ghost stories. If you want to be a free man with some self-respect, you have to take the iniative and live your own life. Remember, the lead dog may take the most risks, but he definitely has the best view.
Life isn't like a box of chocolates, it's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today might burn your ass tomorrow.
3gunguy
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Posted: 3/7/2004 8:14:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2004 8:15:23 AM EST by 3gunguy]
ok everyone...I am a big P***y your right...all this tough talk...I don't talk tough nope I sure dont...bet there were a bunch of shit talkers in 1776 too...and when the led started flying hmmm....elbows and assholes... anyway..I am not attacking anyone ...so I appreciate you refraining on same and focussing on the subject at hand. All of US as individuals will never do a dam thing...but as a united bunch..we might just raise an eyebrow or two. The problem is this...if cmjohnson here decides to do that...they come and hook him up..one day he is not on the boards anymore...then you model one...you go open up shop one day and bang your in the clink...now eventually news will spread..but if I were them I would pick my worst potential threats...Isolate them and neutralize them before they could become such. We are all men and women of principle, but if they come and hook up both cmjohnson and model one...the rest of you....are you going to leave your job, wives, family, homes, etc and start one man revolutions over it? I mean come on...we all like to think we are the shit but your talking a serious game here and then what say is the plan? Now if it comes to that..the whole shootin match is over and we all know it. The sunset is our opportunity to legally change things in our favor and build momentum upon that....the best revolution is to get people out there and vote these dam democrats all out of office. If all 60 million gun owners voted for the republican ticket...there would be no issue. IF all 60 millon gun owners demanded the protection of our rights, There is no other group near our size that could stop it legislatively. Period. My basic question is this. Will they rule that, like prebans being grandfathered, all firearms made during the ban will be grand fathered as such, and that serial numbers produced after Sept 14th will then be ok to build on? Can anyone predict how that will play out? I would love to buy 50 lowers now if that is not the case....anyone? What about LEO marked mags? they could potentiall rule the same on that. Anything marked as LEO stays as such. Who knows...anyone with a crystal ball? [usa]
cmjohnson
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Posted: 3/7/2004 1:44:39 PM EST
ATF rulings don't mean SHIT if there's no law backing them up. Period. End of story. CJ
"Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night."....Thulsa Doom
locolife
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Posted: 3/7/2004 4:18:44 PM EST
I think some of you are a bit confused about how criminal laws are interpreted and enforced in "the real world". This misunderstanding has caused more that few people to be investigated, arrested and prosecuted for actions they thought were legal. Let me use a few real world examples to illustrate my point. SOCOM Manufacturing - Ernie makes uppers designed for M11's. His interpretation of "the letter of the law" seemed to allow it. He assumed that the BATF would consider the uppers to be non-weapons.... he was wrong. The BATF ruled that they were in fact machineguns. Maadi-Griffin Co. - Bob Stewart manufactured "unfinished" .50BMG receivers. His interpretation of "the letter of the law" was that since the kit was unfinished and required machining to be completed, it was legal. The BATF found an "expert" that could make the gun fire with a dremel and a couple hours... guess where that got Bob? Sideplates, Drop in auto sears and the like - Jim Jeffries, noted attorney put it best "The sideplate phenomenon has always been a BATF fantasy unconnected to the reality of the law. This is perhaps the clearest example of BATF's simply making up law which is totally at odds with the acts of Congress which it purports to enforce..." Because many of these issues and others like it, rest in undefined areas of the law, BATF "experts" can get away with murder from the witness stand and judges will generally pay deference to the opinions of those charged with enforcing the law... and so will juries. So, unless you are prepared to give up your family, friends, money and freedom for your interpretation of the law, its probably not a good idea to toy with the agency who's interpretation really counts. However, some of you "brave" guys may wish to challenge those laws in an effort to change them. If any of you are willing to make the sacrifices listed above I would be more than happy to donate the shotgun/hacksaw and even make the long distance call to BATF to come get you.
locolife
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Posted: 3/7/2004 4:29:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: ATF rulings don't mean SHIT if there's no law backing them up. Period. End of story.
You are missing the point, the law, is what the BATF, the judge and ultimately the jury interpret it to be... those rulings get people arrested and convicted on a regular basis.
3gunguy
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Posted: 3/7/2004 5:16:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2004 5:17:33 PM EST by 3gunguy]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: ATF rulings don't mean SHIT if there's no law backing them up. Period. End of story. CJ
CJ, You can stomp up and down and stamp your feet all you want but if they decide you can't ....guess what...you can't. It is THAT simple. Until they determine how this will work itself out, no one knows. I hope you are right..don't get me wrong, but the fact remains is we dont know what will happen so unless there is someone who knows something we don't...its just too early to tell. [usa]
cmjohnson
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Posted: 3/7/2004 6:34:17 PM EST
Look, I'm telling you exactly how it is as far as the scope of the law says, and in accordance with the powers that the ATF has by law, and the powers that they do NOT have by law. They are NOT authorized to make law, not in reality and not by a de facto ruling. It is CONGRESS, and CONGRESS ALONE, that is authorized to make laws. It is the responsibility of LAW ENFORCEMENT organizations to ENFORCE those laws, and as of now, the BATFE is NOT a law enforcement organization. None of this means that you can't be arrested for a crime that doesn't exist in the law books, and it doesn't mean that you can't be convicted of that non-existant crime if a weak-minded jury is lied to and believes it, or a judge is equally thickheaded. I'm not saying you CAN'T get in trouble, but I am stating in no uncertain terms that it is a FACT that when the ban sunsets, it is NO LONGER LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE, PERIOD. Emphasis on LEGALLY. If by some strange chance I were to be arrested for such a non-crime, any lawyer that couldn't successfully argue for my case would be so incompetent that I'd have to wonder how he found his way to work that morning. The BATFE has certain responsibilities and powers. They have very specific limits. If you were to take the time to look up exactly what those are, and verify each one against the Constitution and laws passed by Congress, you'd soon see that I'm telling you the absolute truth. It's no surprise that they have at times attempted to usurp authority that has never been granted to them. What IS surprising is that they have not been punished for those events. CJ
"Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night."....Thulsa Doom
locolife
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Posted: 3/8/2004 4:40:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: Look, I'm telling you exactly how it is as far as the scope of the law says, and in accordance with the powers that the ATF has by law, and the powers that they do NOT have by law.
Wrong, the law is not something fixed and tangible, it is constantly in flux and changes with every interpretation and ruling. While some of these laws may not be rational or even necessary... they are laws all the same.
They are NOT authorized to make law, not in reality and not by a de facto ruling.
Wrong again, like it or not, they are the agency tasked with interpreting the vastly undefined areas of firearm law.
It is CONGRESS, and CONGRESS ALONE, that is authorized to make laws.
Not quite right, BATF interprets those laws.
It is the responsibility of LAW ENFORCEMENT organizations to ENFORCE those laws, and as of now, the BATFE is NOT a law enforcement organization.
There must be a typo in there somewhere, you can't possibly be saying that the BATF is not a law enforcement agency. I quote the BATF's mission statement: [i] "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is a law enforcement organization within the United States Department of Justice with unique responsibilities dedicated to reducing violent crime and protecting the public. ATF enforces the federal laws and regulations relating to alcohol, tobacco, firearms, explosives and arson..." [/i]
I'm not saying you CAN'T get in trouble, but I am stating in no uncertain terms that it is a FACT that when the ban sunsets, it is NO LONGER LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE, PERIOD.
According to who's interpretation... yours? Sorry, yours doesn't count. Until the BATF interprets it, you are running the risk of being prosecuted. In reality, the little guy won't be the likely target for prosecution, but its a risk all the same. I don't know about you, but I value my freedom. I fight for my rights in ways that work and that don't require me to be a defendant. Join organizations, speak publicly, educate your fellow gun owner, speak to politicians... simply complaining about unjust laws does no good.
The BATFE has certain responsibilities and powers. They have very specific limits. If you were to take the time to look up exactly what those are, and verify each one against the Constitution and laws passed by Congress, you'd soon see that I'm telling you the absolute truth.
Funny, I was going to suggest the same thing to you... Congress is the one that gave them the powers that they posses.
It's no surprise that they have at times attempted to usurp authority that has never been granted to them. What IS surprising is that they have not been punished for those events.
Again, complaining about it doesn't fix it.
3gunguy
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Posted: 3/8/2004 4:52:25 AM EST
CJ, I completely agree with everything you just said. Now, let's take it one step further. The concern is that one of us does get arrrested for one of those arbitrary rulings..or even many of us. What are we to do? Nothing will happen. It will not cause the end of days and all of our loyal kick ass friends arent going to take up arms to free you and the world will not change. Only your pocket book and the time and hassle. Alot of this can be simply avoided by seeing if they make any of these arbitrary decisions and then making educated moves...including contesting those rulings legally in a court of law rather than trying to prove your innocence based on what their decisions are, not what we think they may or may not be now. [usa]
ANGST
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Posted: 3/8/2004 4:57:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2004 4:59:07 AM EST by ANGST]
I guess you pussies should throw all your guns away right now, because any day the ATF can just decide guns are all illegal and arrest you. And if you are looking for legal presedent on the AWB sunset just look to the year 1993, the laws on the book covering semi autos were the same then as they will be on Sept 14 2004. How many people were conviced of violating the AWB in 1993 ?
3gunguy
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Posted: 3/8/2004 5:22:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2004 5:23:09 AM EST by 3gunguy]
Originally Posted By ANGST: I guess you pussies should throw all your guns away right now, because any day the ATF can just decide guns are all illegal and arrest you. And if you are looking for legal presedent on the AWB sunset just look to the year 1993, the laws on the book covering semi autos were the same then as they will be on Sept 14 2004. How many people were conviced of violating the AWB in 1993 ?
Ok Angst, Now if the ATF were to rule that all guns were illegal, then I think we would be talking about the mass dissarming of the populace and like I said way up top, then the whole shootin match is over and its a free for all. Now you and I know that is not going to happen...at least not anytime soon. No one is saying you should just go along like sheep and take it as they give it. By taking the time to read the above posts, you will see that what I suggest is first waiting to see what they say before you go and buy all those cases of LEO stamped magazines on Sept 14th to see if they consider them to still be limited in possession due to their markings....cause face it YOU DONT KNOW what they will say. What we can all do in the meantime is work to keep Bush in the white house and vote out everyone that has voted against gun ownership rights. Unfortunately, Bush supports the extension of the ban, but he is better than Kerry. And again, Ad hominom attacks serve nothing to address the issue. [usa]
ANGST
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Posted: 3/8/2004 6:02:40 AM EST
Markings mean nothing without a law to reference them to. I can engrave all my guns and magazines and ammo with "For law enforcement only" if I want and not break any laws by having them. I understand that you think the ATF had made some "odd" "rulings" before , but at least all the ruling had some basis in a law that was on the books. after the AWB there is no law concerning what evil features are on a semi-automatic firearm , or what markings need to be on a magazine. Yes the ATF declaring the "All guns" thing was way over the top , but acording to some people here, they seem to that that could be a possibillity for them to legally do (it's not BTW). While I am not a lawyer I do understand the laws pretty well (I do have formal university education in the area) I have read the laws , unlike alot of these people. I have even picked up the US code and read everything in title 18 concerning firearm MULTIPLE times. Remember the ATF can only interpret and enforce , there is no law that could possibly cause them to interperate that LEO mags and post-ban guns can possibly be any different then the same items made prior to or after the ban , there is NOTHING . Noone here has even come up with a way that the ATF could possibly rule in any other way. The only thing is "Well the ATF can do anything it wants" and thats SIMPLY NOT TRUE. The fact is the people saying that are just not up on the facts as to what basis the ATF makes the rulings on , and what the law states. They fear what they do not understand. I know that does not convince people that the ATF is some sort of all powerful SS like agency who can dictate anything it wants to the masses, but some people prefer to live in that world I suppose.
3gunguy
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Posted: 3/8/2004 7:25:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2004 7:26:28 AM EST by 3gunguy]
Angst, I agree with almost everything you said. Here is one for you that I posted up top... The ATF could rule that all the mags made between the date the ban was enacted and the sunset date....that are marked LEO and Serial Numbers manufactured during those dates...be grandfathered and stay as such..while any made after such dates are now free. Is it right? I would say not. Does it suck? HELL YES. Could they rule that way in anticipation of the ban being reenstated at a later date to keep things simple for them? Maybe... The honest answer...right, wrong, or indifferent...is that none of us know. [usa]
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