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Posted: 5/11/2001 7:41:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2001 8:12:49 PM EDT by Dfender]
Folks, A few nights ago I started a thread in the legal forum titled "What to do with Preban Lower?". It was read by many and replied to by about 20 of you with varying opinions on the legality of constructing a preban "assault weapon" as defined by the 1994 Crime Bill from a stripped lower receiver manufactured before the enactment of said bill. I had purchased an Essential Arms lower receiver from augman on gunbroker.com with the express intent of purchasing a ZM Weapons LR-300SRF preban kit with which to construct a nifty AR15 with a folding stock. At the time of the purchase I believed that as long as the lower receiver was manufactured before the ban, which it was, then I could build a complete rifle with it in whatever preban configuration I desired. I was wrong. I highly recommend the following link for a very informative discussion on the subject: [b] [url]http://www.olyarms.com/prepost.html[/url] [/b] The bottom line is that the date of manufacture of the lower receiver is not sufficient to legally qualify it for assembly into a complete "assault weapon" as defined by the law. I was misinformed and it cost me $750. An expensive lesson, but a lot cheaper than finding myself in legal trouble for owning an illegal weapon. I also want to apologize to this group. In the course of the discussion I started previously I jokingly offered to sell the lower receiver in question and then went ahead and posted it for sale in the Equipment Exchange forum. I rationalized that it was up to the buyer to be informed and make sure that they had a legal use for the lower receiver. Upon further investigation I determined that it would be impossible to provide anyone with sufficient documentation to prove that the lower had in fact been assembled as an "assault weapon" before the ban. The guy who sold the lower to me offered to write a letter stating that it was part of a complete rifle when he bought it, but that was after the ban and of no use to someone intending, as I was, to build a preban configured rifle. I should not have offered the lower for sale and risked putting someone else in the same bind I am now in. I am sorry for that and I hope this thread will serve to inform others who visit this site so they won't make the same mistake I did. Regards, DFender Austin, TX
Link Posted: 5/11/2001 9:19:37 PM EDT
It's good to see that you value your integrity above your pocket book.
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 4:21:54 AM EDT
Dfender, No need to apologize- your experience and post furthers everyones knowledge, one way or another. Thanx for the postscript and stick around. Steve
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 2:13:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2001 2:13:06 PM EDT by PigPen]
dfender, OTOH, How do you know that it wasn't assembled into a complete rifle before the ban? Can you prove that it wasn't assembled? Can anyone prove it? Sounds to me as if you might be throwing the baby out with the bath water. PigPen
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 2:57:59 PM EDT
I think most of you already know how I stand so I won't repost my whole 4 days worth of posts. You can't prove it was assembled, the ATF can't prove OR disprove it was assembled, and we can ALL prove it was manufactured PRE ban. You didn't get screwed buying a preban lower, because you DID buy a preban lower. If you feel so strongly about it I will buy it for the postban price that you feel it is worth and I will just have to take the risk of having a legal preban rifle on that legal preban lower made well before the ban. This whole thread has done nothing but dissapoint me as to people's beliefs in tyrannical government. [V]
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 6:12:18 PM EDT
I'd gladly buy it for a couple hundred bucks but I honestly don't know what I'd do with another AR15. Look what the G-Men did to the Branch Davidians for having a few too many.[:)] PigPen
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 7:50:33 PM EDT
You are certainly an honest person and I commend you. As much as I am temped to circumvent the law and have me a pre-ban rifle with the offending features, the reality is a post-ban does what I need it to do. I hate it, I'd really like a few more AR's but we got beat by the Soccer Moms I guess. What is most admirable about your posting is that you, unlike many here, are not going to try to make a huge profit of the dubious title of "pre-ban" lower. There's alot of greedy gun enthusiasts trying to sell $500 stripped lowers that believe only what they want to believe in regards to the law.
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 8:01:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 8:15:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 5:13:53 AM EDT
well i guess the gov.just won one didn't they, as now a preban is not a preban anymore.did you call DPMS to see if they had any imfo on this lower?or did essential arms only sell lowers not complete rifles?on the other hand the more people who do this will only make my verified preban bushmaster worth more.thanks, another month or two and i'll be selling my bushie lower for three grand.mmk
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 9:16:38 AM EDT
Just sad. [V][:(][V][:(][V][:(][V]
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 10:58:29 AM EDT
It’s not immoral to sell it for gawd sakes. If something you’re selling has a problem, explain it to any potential buyer. Then it’s up to the buyer. Advertize it as a preban lower. And explain you don’t have any knowledge to whether is had been assembled prior to the ban, or knowledge that it had not. If they don’t understand what that means, explain it to them. Yeah, you are not going to get $750 for it, but you might get $400 or $500. Better yet, get Augman to provide a receipt stating the Lower is a grand fathered assault rifle. If he won’t do it, demand your money back, saying he misrepresented the item in order to make the sale. If he still refuses, take what ever action possible within the law. RK
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 10:59:14 AM EDT
I didn't read the other thread but I have been reading about this for years now. I have yet to see one case documented in which the rifle owner was charged, let alone convicted, of assembling a preban on an "undocumented" pre-ban lower. If such a case even existed, that would clear up the doubt as to who is the responsible party for documentation because of the precedent set. I know, I know, here comes the "You don't want to be the first one... You will have to spend thousands of dollars clearing your name...." If it was going to happen don't you think that it would have happened in the eight years prior? Please someone give some hard proof that this has ever happened. No disrespect, but it is silly for you to get all worked up about this lower. Put it on the boards for what you have in it, say you don't have any documentation for it, and sell it. You aren't leading anyone down the path to illegality. What you are doing is applying your interpretation to the regulations. You think that it is up to you to prove that the rifle was in a preban configuration. There are plenty of us out here that don't agree with you. In my opinion, it is legally suspect to require a defendant to prove, essentially a negative. As was said in another reply. If there is no way to prove that the rifle was in a preban configuration before the ban, then there is no way to prove that it wasn't, as well. I'll start you out on your ad: "For Sale, undocumented preban Essential Arms lower"
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 12:24:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dfender: I had purchased an Essential Arms lower receiver from augman on gunbroker.com with the express intent of purchasing a ZM Weapons LR-300SRF preban kit with which to construct a nifty AR15 with a folding stock. [snip] I was misinformed and it cost me $750. An expensive lesson, but a lot cheaper than finding myself in legal trouble for owning an illegal weapon.
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Uhhmmm Excuse me... No disrespect intended. While you are correct in an interpretation, it may not be entirely correct. Are you saying this lower was NEVER a complete rifle prior to 9/13/94? Do you have documentation that STATES that? I have known Augman through this board, and the Bowers board for almost 3 years. I don't personally know him, and have never bought anything from him, but AUGMAN is one person that I would trust, and support. He has always had legal, excellent quality products for sale, at very fair, good prices. AUGMAN is considered one of the "Good Guys" on the Bowers Board, and has Excellent References. If you feel that you were taken, and want your money back, I am sure that he would work something out with you. If you feel that what was offered for sale does not satisfy your requirements, that is fine, sell it and get something that does. I don't know the details of your transaction, but I would be willing to say that AUGMAN did not misrepresent anything. He is still one of the few people out there who will not screw someone. If you have a question of this person's integrity, take a trip to Subguns.com
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 12:42:52 PM EDT
This is the kind of thing to which I referred in a previous post (OK, several previous posts [:)]) Anybody worried about this is in my opinion a chicken little spreading anxiety and fear where there is no cause. Bubba, Black helicopters, the sky is falling....kind of stuff. Among the people on this forum (Site), there are the most knowledgeable people about the subject of firearms in the U.S. We have armorers, gunsmiths, Lawyers with interests in Firearms laws, hobbyists, competitors, hunters, even law Enforcement personel and I would bet a BATF agent or two. we all frequent multiple site with more of the same types. We are in touch with firearms people all over the U. S. Everytime this subject arrises, the doomsdayers say ooooh!~ etc. Yet no one can cite a single *documented* case, when anybody has been prosecuted for this infraction! It's a case of people spreading fear and panic among our own without any evidence that this has ever happened.....or will ever happen even if done intentionally. I know that I am not required to read this forum but I am frankly dissappointed in those people who prey on the innocent like Dfender who is going to lose money on a lower that for all we know was a class 3 firearm in 1989, simply to impress others! Isn't the truth that while none of us know about the firearm in question and the company is out of business and records not available, that the BATF would have a hard time proving is was not assembled prior to the law and that if they were somehow able to do so with their authority as a branch of the Federal Government that a judge would dismiss it; even if the BATF was dumb enough to try to prosecute it? Dfender bought it as a Preban. The price he paid indicated the price of a preban. He has no reason to think otherwise (or being the honest guy that he is he would tell the prospective new buyer of such information). It is beyond what a reasonable man in his situation would be required to do to learn more and he has no intent to break the law. What the hell is the matter with you all. Isn't the law stiff enough to suit you as it stands? This is first grade stuff. Geeze! It just seems to me that the law is bad enough as it is without carrying it to the extreme. If I am ever on trial for a firearm violation I hope they do not pick some of you for the jury. Only making my point in the best way that I know. I feel like a voice in the wilderness crying out for some common sense but I mean no offense to any one. PigPen
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 2:38:36 PM EDT
I see why many of you are angry. You tried to circumvent the law but have just learned the truth that the beloved pre-ban configured rifle which you've recently built (on a stripped receiver manufactured before the ban) is illegal. So now a number of you are simply in denial and babbling that "Its legal... and they cant prove sh*t!" Well, if you have read the other threads here in this forum you will see that the burden of proof is on you. Go ahead and keep believing what you want to believe (and be the first test case) but dont try and get other people into trouble by spreading misinformation.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 2:55:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2001 3:04:57 PM EDT by augman]
I'll buy it back for $ 400.00 + shipping. Next time your at the Gun Show and you see other people walking around with preban rifles excluding Colt AR's ask them if they have authenticity documentation on the receiver. Over 95% of the people you ask that to will not have documentation. One reason is do you realise how many times those rifles changed hands in the last 7-8 years ? Bushmaster does the SN check for free just by calling Customer Service. Olympic charges $ 30.00 & because of the recent fire at the factory they cant be certain because alot of the files were burned up. When you see a FFL dealer that has a preban AR on his table ask him the same question. Colt did not sell receivers by themselves, Colt built rifles....
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 3:04:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2001 3:10:40 PM EDT by Righteous_Kill]
Originally Posted By Bush Hamster: I see why many of you are angry. You tried to circumvent the law but have just learned the truth that the beloved pre-ban configured rifle which you've recently built (on a stripped receiver manufactured before the ban) is illegal.
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No one here is trying to circumvent the law, in fact, most of us are trying our best to understand and adhere to it.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 3:12:42 PM EDT
beginning at Form 4473 If a person can show they possessed all needed items to make a SAW prior to date of the Crime bill. Getting the form 4473 is impossiable. After the AWB went into effect over 200,000 FFL dealers turned in their FFL license, all 4473's by law were handed over to the BATF in Virginia. Do you think they are going to look that information up for you ? Good Luck!
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 3:14:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2001 3:13:45 PM EDT by Righteous_Kill]
Originally Posted By augman: I'll buy it back for $ 400.00 + shipping.
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What a swell guy. [BD] JayDee, there's your "goodguy", bahahahaha
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 4:28:42 PM EDT
how can anybody prove the lower in question that it was not a rifle when purchased? ive never ever bought a weapon that any paper's said it was pre or post. ive had a preban ar15, and trace down the serial number shure enough "preban" so i enjoyed the bayonet lug and the flashhider but now i really love my bushmaster postban and never regretted buying it.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 4:38:30 PM EDT
Do what makes you feel good. However, [b]DO NOT[/b] believe for a second that all your efforts to comply with this or that law of the day in regards to this stuff will have any effect in saving you from prosecution. If they want you, they'll get you - no matter what you do. Your interpretations of the law are of no consequence, because they will interpret them as they see fit to accomplish their goal. If their goal is to bring you down - you are going down. It matters not what you do to stay within the bounds of all this "interpretive law". If trying to wade through the byzantine maze of legal mumbo jumbo when configuring your AR makes you happy and makes you feel all safe and sound - go for it. But it won't do a damn thing for you when they take your AR to their fully equipped gunsmithing shop and work on it for 8 hours to see if they can make it double-tap just once. "Oh - I see you have an unregistered fully automatic firearm. You say it really is a semi, you say it really is a pre-ban? Well tell it to the judge son!" BAM!! 10 yrs in ClubFed. Your last words before leaving the courtroom will be heard, "But your honor, it is a semi-automatic pre-ban!!" Later - channel 9 will be interviewing your neighbors - "He was such a nice man. I never would have suspected that he was part of a racist, anti-semitic, anti-Govt. group like that. Thank God the police took him away." "Well there you have it folks, with the controversy surrounding Timothy McVeigh, it seems that his followers are amongst us all. Please report any suspicious activity in your neighborhood. This is Buzz Dickhead reporting for Channel 9."
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 4:44:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bush Hamster: Well, if you have read the other threads here in this forum you will see that the burden of proof is on you.
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Really??? Since when did the laws of our country change, placing the "Burden of Proof" on me to prove my innocence? Last I heard, I was Innocent, until proven guilty, so it appears now that I am Guilty, until I prove my innocence, how amusing [;)] I have 2 words for Dfender... [b]Caveat Emptor[/b] The buyer has the responsibilty to ensure that he asks the necessart questions BEFORE he bids, and if he has any questions, doubts, or concerns that can not be resolved beforehand, he simply does not have to place a bid, or purchase, AND transfer the weapon. Pretty Simple. Yes, it seems that Dfender has enough concerns about this, that he has changed his mind (buyer remorse can be a costly lesson), but that doesn't hold him any less accountable for ensuring that he understand the law as it pertains to him, and resolve any questions BEFOREHAND. Of course, there is no shortage of resources concerning the addressing of the whole Pre vs. Post issue, the link from the Oly site is one, there's one on the Old AR site here [url]http://old.ar15.com/legal/preORpost.asp [/url]and probably several dozen more that I won't waste everyones time with. The best resources would probably be directly from the Gunbroker website where he conducted this transaction - [url]http://www.gunbroker.com/user/BuyerTutorial.asp[/url] That provides links to the ATF, but most importantly...
[b]Placing a Bid[/b] [misc deleted] You should also review the item listing itself carefully. [b]Most problems reported by users are caused when the buyer has failed to do his homework or has assumed the item to be something that it is not. If the item condition is not specified, do not assume it is new or in good condition. Ask the seller! If you do not know what the item is, do not bid until you find out. [/b] Before you place a bid, it is extremely important that you make sure that you want the item. [b]If you have any questions, you must contact the seller and ask him before placing your bid. You can contact the seller by clicking on the 'Ask seller a question' link. [/b]
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As for the $400 offer, and comment about a "Swell Guy", I don't know anything about the transaction, it may be a genuine offer, it may be a faticious one. I saw an earlier offer from someone else for $200, so what. I gotta go with PigPen on this...
Everytime this subject arrises, the doomsdayers say ooooh!~ etc. Yet no one can cite a single *documented* case, when anybody has been prosecuted for this infraction! It's a case of people spreading fear and panic among our own without any evidence that this has ever happened.....or will ever happen even if done intentionally. I know that I am not required to read this forum but I am frankly dissappointed in those people who prey on the innocent like Dfender who is going to lose money on a lower that for all we know was a class 3 firearm in 1989, simply to impress others!
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Enjoy!
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 4:53:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bush Hamster: I see why many of you are angry. You tried to circumvent the law but have just learned the truth that the beloved pre-ban configured rifle which you've recently built (on a stripped receiver manufactured before the ban) is illegal. So now a number of you are simply in denial and babbling that "Its legal... and they cant prove sh*t!" Well, if you have read the other threads here in this forum you will see that the burden of proof is on you. Go ahead and keep believing what you want to believe (and be the first test case) but dont try and get other people into trouble by spreading misinformation.
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That's great pshychology Bush, why don't you just say something bad about my mother. Oh, I'm in denial. Oh, I am trying to spread misinformation. It sounds to me like you are the one in denial and trying to spread misinformation. You are trying to get some poor guy who bought a legal preban to just throw it all away. YOU are the one who would be getting rid of 95% of all preban rifles. You and the government would just love that wouldn't you. So what do you need to prove a lower was assembled? Without the manufacturer knowing, what possible physical way is there to prove or dissprove it? I guess that means only the ABC manufacturers are allowed to have prebans. The other 12 million AR's are just shit out of luck, huh. Maybe you aren't in denial. Maybe you're just a chickenshit and go crying home to mama at the first sign of trouble. It's people with attitudes like yours who allow certain liberties to be banned. People like you who sit back and talk a lot of BS, then when the time comes willfully hand over their freedom to the gun collection agency. It's bad enough that a constitutional right was revoked in 94. It's bad enough I complied with that law and spent $1500 fuck!n dollars to own a $600 dollar gun. But then to have some asshole come online and interpret a law like a damn liberal pessimist and tell me that my gun is "illegal". So fu©k you and the horse you rode in on! [!]
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 5:03:21 PM EDT
wow...how nice, resorting to ad-hominem abusives now are we. Whatever, I won't reply in kind. Im not being a "liberal pessimist" as you infer but trying to be a law-abiding citizen as we in the gun community so oftenly proclaim.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 5:20:21 PM EDT
BTW, if its any consolation to you. I own a pre-ban AR15 built before 1994 on a PWA lower, and I do NOT have the paper work to prove it either. So yes, Im screwed too. The law does suck but its there.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 5:52:04 PM EDT
Well, just for the record, I own two prebans and they are both....uh.......ummmm..they are both....aaah..Colts! But it was before they donated money to Chuck Schumer..I swear it was! One is an SP1 and the other is a green label HBar. I own two other AR15s and they are both configured postban. So, your analysis of motives is dead wrong. You support not using the reciever in a preban state...yet have such a rifle. I support using it in a preban state and do not have one. PigPen
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 5:54:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2001 5:56:55 PM EDT by PigPen]
Hey guys, just remember their have always been and always will be Torys and Unionists. One other remark. You know Dfender is a neophyte. Everone who has been around longer than a week knows not to deal with Augman! Augman reminds me of Mr. Haney on Green Acres [:0]. ROFL That he is still around is amazing. PigPen
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 8:48:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bush Hamster: wow...how nice, resorting to ad-hominem abusives now are we. Whatever, I won't reply in kind. Im not being a "liberal pessimist" as you infer but trying to be a law-abiding citizen as we in the gun community so oftenly proclaim.
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There is nothing wrong with being a law abiding citizen. Like I said, I spent $1500 for a 6 year old preban AR that NEW only costs $600. I am pissed about that, but I obeyed the law. However, it is no longer justifiable to obey the law when it becomes oppressive or endangers the lives of people. To say that the majority of ALL AR's are not eligible to be grandfathered because we, the people, cannot prove how long ago a pin was put in. I honestly believe that, even IF the govt decided to arrest someone for an obviously preban lower because they could not prove assembly, that the person would win in court. Also, there is a difference in being a law abiding citizen and standing up for your rights. The 1994 freedom ban is blatantly unconstitutional. If we let it stand, where will we let the gun restrictions stop?
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 8:52:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bush Hamster:
Im not being a "liberal pessimist" as you infer but trying to be a law-abiding citizen as we in the gun community so oftenly proclaim.
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BTW, if its any consolation to you. I own a pre-ban AR15 built before 1994 on a PWA lower, and I do NOT have the paper work to prove it either. So yes, Im screwed too. The law does suck but its there.
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Wait a minute, so you are telling people to not build a preban out of a preban lower and yet you have one? So HOW are you "trying to be a law-abiding citizen" as you say if you believe the rifle you have may be illegal? That doesn't sound like you are trying to obey the law to me. What was that you said earlier about people being in denial???
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 10:07:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 10:31:47 PM EDT
Does anyone have first hand knowledge of someone being arrested/charged for having a pre-ban rifle that they could not prove was assembled before the ban? Stop this madness! As long as that lower was received by a dealer before the ban it is impossible to prove that it was not assembled before the ban. If you honestly beleive that a court is going to make you prove that it was and not make the ATF prove that it was'nt you're crazy. Build your pre-ban rifle. I choose not to buy a post-ban "insult" weapon. I'm not knocking those who do. We all buy what we can afford but tell a guy who has a pre-ban lower that he is screwed is just candy ass B.S.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 10:48:51 PM EDT
As a side line. In Jan. 95 I bought a pre-ban bushmaster from an FFL I know. Last year I sent it to bushmaster to have the barrel index tweaked. They informed me that I had a post ban lower on a pre ban upper. I called the guy who had since gotten out of the business. When I bought the rifle he told me that it was a complete from the factory pre ban rifle. I called him up and he told me that he had alot of parts kits and lowers at the time and got confused. He offered th trade me a post ban upper. I was pissed. I paid the going rate for a pre at the time and I thought that it had appreciated. He jerked me around for awhile and i found out that he had done the same thing to a co worker of mine. I called the ATF and they said they would not prosecute him but they would confiscate my rifle. They also said they would talk to him and encourage him to reemburse me. He paid me $1,000.00 and I was out a rifle. He paid my buddy too. They never looked deeper into his records to see how many other people he did this to and never prosecuted him. They did nothing about a rouge FFL dealer. Thats how much the ATF cares about the average Joe with a semi auto assault rifle. So much for 10 years and a $10,000 fine.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 5:40:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2001 5:40:25 AM EDT by Steve-in-VA]
Originally Posted By uncle buck: Does anyone have first hand knowledge of someone being arrested/charged for having a pre-ban rifle that they could not prove was assembled before the ban?
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Sorta, but not as a crime by itself, only as a tag-on crime to a huge drug conspiracty. When they raided the drug house, they took the gun and charged him with a 922 violation. That is the CLOSEST I have been able to find. He did not have to prove anything, he entered a plea agreement. The charge was dropped (they had already charged him with "possessing a firearm in connection with the distribution of drugs"- a lot heftier crime. Who cares. I think you miss the point. As Troy wrote (go back and read it), we are just pointing out what the law is, not giving you Vegas-like odds on the potential for criminal prosecution. Do what you want, just do it knowingly and informed- both eyes open.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 8:15:16 AM EDT
No matter what laws have been written, it has always been up to the state's or prosecution's burden to prove it's case to convict the defendant, beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury in such a case is also made up of twelve "ordinary" voting citizens. I still have yet to hear of a prosecuted crime bill offense. I doubt I ever will. Just my two cents.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 12:44:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2001 12:46:08 PM EDT by Righteous_Kill]
1. Pre or Post-ban status ONLY matters in court. You could have a post-ban-configured AR and still get arrested for having an illegal AW, and until you got into court, it wouldn't make much difference. You can be *charged* with a crime with very little evidence, but that doesn't mean you'll be convicted. But anyway, if your rifle's status only matters in court, WHY PAY EXTRA FOR A PRE-BAN IF YOU CAN'T DOCUMENT IT'S STATUS? If you don't have documentation for your rifle, and it's a rifle that you can't GET documentation for it (like, say, an Essential Arms, who sold only lowers), how could you prove to a court that your rifle is pre-ban? 2. If you can't prove your rifle's status, what did your "pre-ban" money pay for? The point of paying the premium over a post-ban lower is to keep yourself from being convicted in court of assembling an illegal AW. If you can't get proof of status, why pay extra? You're taking the same exact risk as someone buying a new-production lower and configuring it into AW configuration, so why not just do that and save some money? -Troy
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You are wrong on both accounts. 1. One is a legal grand fathered semi-auto assault weapon, totally legal to own. The other is an illegal semi-auto AW, and not legal to possess. 2. Buying a preban AW and buying an illegal postban AW is not even in the same ball park. How can you think that it is the same thing? People pay more for a preban because it’s legal, the other is not. There is a BIG difference between a preban and a postban.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 3:36:14 PM EDT
i built my PWA in 1990 long before the 1994 ban but cant prove it. I thought i was in compliance since i copied the yellow form showing i bought the receiver on 1990, and thought i had the receipt for the parts kit i bought. Because of this discussion, I checked to see if i had it the other day and couldnt find it. So in light of this fact i shall replace the barrel with a post ban.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 5:22:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JayDee:
Originally Posted By Dfender: I had purchased an Essential Arms lower receiver from augman on gunbroker.com with the express intent of purchasing a ZM Weapons LR-300SRF preban kit with which to construct a nifty AR15 with a folding stock. [snip] I was misinformed and it cost me $750. An expensive lesson, but a lot cheaper than finding myself in legal trouble for owning an illegal weapon.
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Uhhmmm Excuse me... No disrespect intended. While you are correct in an interpretation, it may not be entirely correct. Are you saying this lower was NEVER a complete rifle prior to 9/13/94? Do you have documentation that STATES that? I have known Augman through this board, and the Bowers board for almost 3 years. I don't personally know him, and have never bought anything from him, but AUGMAN is one person that I would trust, and support. He has always had legal, excellent quality products for sale, at very fair, good prices. AUGMAN is considered one of the "Good Guys" on the Bowers Board, and has Excellent References. If you feel that you were taken, and want your money back, I am sure that he would work something out with you. If you feel that what was offered for sale does not satisfy your requirements, that is fine, sell it and get something that does. I don't know the details of your transaction, but I would be willing to say that AUGMAN did not misrepresent anything. He is still one of the few people out there who will not screw someone. If you have a question of this person's integrity, take a trip to Subguns.com
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Jaydee - you've taken my statement that I was misinformed out of context - I did not mean that I was misinformed by augman, but, rather, that I had not educated myself sufficiently on the topic before making the $750 purchase. I wasn't flaming augman. Now, if you want to talk about the fact that he's only willing to buy it back for $400 when I paid him $750... Regardless, I don't believe augman tried to swindle me in any way. I do believe that he's used to dealing with more experienced people in the AR community that have a higher risk tolerance than I do or even interpret the rules put in place by the Crime Bill differently than I do. That's why I started this thread - I just want the other newbies on this board to be better informed than I was when they decide to purchase preban parts. Dfender
Link Posted: 5/16/2001 1:33:01 PM EDT
What you bought was a pre-ban receiver, you bought it as such and it is a pre-ban and therefore can be built as such, Aug is a very good guy, I have bought from him and sold to him, always good deals, I would build that lower up as a pre-ban, if the gov. ever starts busting people, they will have the jails full, does anybody on here have the proof that every AR they own is pre-ban? It's all a numbers game, you can't prove it was built, but then again you can't prove it wasn't.
Link Posted: 5/16/2001 1:49:31 PM EDT
I know how you feel Dfender i bought a what i thought it was a pre-ban gun at a local gun shop it had P.W.A. lower and i thought well since Pac West Arms went out of business i thought this lower was legit the serial number was 41XXX. And I did some research turned out P.W.A. lowers where shipped not as a full assembled rifle also serial numbers 35222 and lower are pre-bans and anything over that are post-ban. So if i hadn't returned that gun with the shop 20% stock up fee. But i only lost 200 bucks rather than getting stuck with a post-ban lower that had illegal put together upper and carbine stock. which i could've illegally own. From now on i think before i buy anything i have to make sure the lower reciever is legit before i decide to buy the damn gun. My mistake cost me $200 bucks, but it's a lessoned learned.
Link Posted: 5/16/2001 6:24:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 3:59:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/27/2001 8:21:19 AM EDT by Dfender]
Update: I found a NIB preban Colt Match HBAR at a local gun show this weekend. Since its a Colt its easily verifiable as a preban SAW so no legal issues to worry about. Since I now have absolutely no use for the Essential Arms lower that spawned this thread I'd be happy to sell it to anyone who has read this thread and understands that, in my opinion, this is not a preban lower that can be legally used to construct a SAW as defined by the 94 Crime Bill. I have a signed letter from Augman (the guy who sold it to me on gunbroker.com) detailing the the fact that the lower was part of complete SAW when he bought it. However, he bought it after the 94 ban and has no other documentation to prove that it was a legal SAW at the time he bought it. The serial number on the lower is EA 10xx. That said, I'll accept any reasonable offer. Email me if you want pics. Dfender
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 4:30:27 PM EDT
Yeah just go with Colt or BM they're easily Pre-ban varifiable. I don't think i'm gonna buy any other brand from now on.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 4:41:15 PM EDT
I still don't think you should sell that Essential Arms Lower because it's pre-ban i believe they went out of business in '93, DPMS bought them out. Call DPMS ask them and have them varify if it's completely assembled before the ban? I'm not sure if DPMS knows, but it's worth a try.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 4:57:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 9:18:43 PM EDT
Pics posted in Equipment Exchange forum: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=24460[/url] Asking $125.
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 7:56:32 AM EDT
Sold pending funds. Thanks for all the offers.
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 9:03:20 AM EDT
Dfender, I am no genius by any standards and I have nothing to sell you...But if you need some info on something like this in the future just e-mail me and I will help you anyway I can![:D] There are a plethora of people on here that know everything there is to know about AR's. Just taking someone's word for it does not do it for me. Some of the chicken $h!+ you have been told is just that![:(] It does not matter if half of our 10,000 members would build an illegal assault weapon or not...It would still be an illegal weapon! Now whether or not you would ever get caught with an undocumented lower is another story. Are you willing to go up against the Federal Government to fight it??? I am not! You can buy an EA lower for $600 to 750 or you can buy a Colt for $800-900 and IT CAN BE VERIFIED! Or you can buy a postban lower for $125-250 according to what comes with it! Just because there are a bunch of IDIOT's at the gun shows doesn't make it right to try to deceive people into buying postban lowers as preban! They are either ignorant and truly don't know or they are scum and try to screw people! We got into a discussion with a gun dealer @ Houston gun collectors show earlier this year and he thought he had paid $1500 bones for an EAGLE ARMS (EA) lower and DPMS upper. If I would have known I would have told you as some did to just keep the lower and assemble it as postban. Hopefully everything has worked out for the better![:D] Lynn [heavy]
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 9:33:25 AM EDT
Why dont you give 200$$ more to BATF and buld a SBR or AWP with it? Instead of dumping it.By the way few years back there was an article in SF mag about ATF agends braging about fidling with legal semi aut/trigers and making them double tap.So you go figure.Goud luck
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 9:37:22 AM EDT
This whole debate is a JOKE! The bottom line to all this BS is this, unless you have a Colt or another Manufactorer that ONLY sold COMPLETE rifles you are in the gray area. Why? You have a receipt? Big deal, I can make reciepts all day long. That is no proof and you know it. A Guy who bought a lower and and an upper in 1990 and put his gun together himself is NO better off then Dfender. The Feds could take both down if they wanted too. Hell even Colts are in the gray area. What if that Colt was taken apart and not a complete rifle? That's right, Illegal. Can you PROVE it was never taken apart? Can you PROVE your gun was together in Sept of 94? Dfenders lower was combined with an upper in 1988 and made into a complete rifle. The previous owner bought the upper at a gun show and does not have a reciept because he paid cash. How was he supposed to know his gun would be banned 6 years later? IMO that is what happened. The bottom line is your only TRUE protection is a post ban. If your willing to take a little risk buy a Colt. Everyone else is in the same boat, like it or not.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 2:12:37 PM EDT
If it was assembled once say in 90, you could strip it down in 91, bury it, then dig it up and re-assemble it in 2001 as a preban. As long as it was complete at one time or another before the ban it is preban is what the law states. As far as your reasoning that the only sure way to do it is to have a postban is crap. The ban was unconstitutional to begin with but even in obeying the law there is only a certain limit to which you can take it. You can't read into crap and think that the ATF is magically monitering every lower that was ever made with secret micro-chips that tells them if it was assembled or not. Unless they have other charges against you, it is likely that they will not even press charges against you. Mainly because it is pointless for them to waste time and money to try a case they have a 95% chance of losing. If they did have other charges, they would threaten to press the AW charge only to scare you into telling them something or working for them. Should you stand your ground the charge would likely be dropped or at the least voted in your favor in court. Pleas, tell me one instance some one has been arrested and charged with a postban AW. And then, after you pull your foot out of your mouth, tell me an instance where someone has been charged with a postban AW built on a lower made before the ban. ?????????? Well, I'm waiting...... Fact is you can't do it because there have not been any. It has been almost 7 years and not one crime has been stopped because of the ban and not one person has been arrested or convicted on AW charges at least for simple possession.
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