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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 2/4/2001 3:47:57 AM EDT
I have two postban AR's and I am working on a third 80% finished lower. My question is can I own a bre-pan upper with evil features without owning a pre-ban lower if I never assemble it to a lower? Thank You.
Link Posted: 2/4/2001 6:28:06 AM EDT
I would say yep, they are only parts. Stores have both pre and post ban parts, so you can too.
Link Posted: 2/4/2001 10:21:24 PM EDT
You suggest not listening to advice/information on this board then you give your opinion. Shit FFLs no very little more about laws than cops do. ATF should have to show intent. Ownership of M16 and spare parts and ownership of semi auto AR15 would be hard to get a jury to call that intent to make an unregistered machine gun because you had a reasonable reason for a jury to believe you needed those parts. In your situation what excuse are you going to give for owning parts which can not legally be used on any gun you own. I think the jury could more reasonable say the only reason for this part was to make an illegal post ban assault rifle.
Link Posted: 2/5/2001 2:20:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2001 2:22:08 PM EDT by Gunnut]
I have an opertunity to purchase a breban barrel at a very reasonable price hopefully to have a preban lower come my way in the future. I really have no intent to install it on a postban lower. But I see how it could look to the ATF Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/5/2001 3:38:39 PM EDT
I am a dealer too. I would say don't do it, but if it is just too good a deal to pass up, buy it and keep it elsewhere. Whether you have an intent to commit a crime by installing it on a post ban lower makes no difference to BATF. They'll say there is intent whether there is or not. Since when is the BATF "wrong"? [BD]
Link Posted: 2/6/2001 8:27:12 AM EDT
Back40 you're a dumb@ss.
In your situation what excuse are you going to give for owning parts which can not legally be used on any gun you own. I think the jury could more reasonable say the only reason for this part was to make an illegal post ban assault rifle.
View Quote
One can purchase a Sten parts kit without the intent to build a receiver for it. Many of us have empty bottles, access to gas and old rags, but there is lack of proof to show intent for building molotov cocktails. All those household chemicals, is not intent to manufacture illegal drugs. You can legally purchase a pre-ban upper without the intent of using it. You might be building an non-functional mantel piece. The point being owning a legal item is not intent to do something illegl with it. It is up to ATF to show intent, IE catching you with a smoking pre-ban upper at the range. That is intent. This is my opinion (Copyright 2001, all rights reserved).
Link Posted: 2/7/2001 5:40:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/8/2001 4:24:04 AM EDT
My opinion: It is not illegal for you to own a preban rifle (going on faith here) and so it is not illegal to own preban parts. Having a complete preban upper and no preban lower might be a little "iffy", "if" someone wanted to make a Federal case out of it (apt expression). Having a preban barrel stored away in a sealed box would (should)not be a problem.
Link Posted: 2/8/2001 6:24:00 AM EDT
Where the Vuck did Back40 go! Dumb@ss.
Link Posted: 2/19/2001 3:35:41 AM EDT
I also think it is important to remember that YOU CAN use a pre-ban upper on a POST BAN lower just so long as you don't fall into a category where you are committing a crime according to the Crime bill! If you were to remove the mag release button and replace it with a nut as had been discussed on the old forums they you NO LONGER have a removable magazine as tools would be required to release the magazine. Therefore, you have a POTENTIAL legitamate use for this upper which would NOT be illegal (((According to my Interpretation of the law)))! Additionally!!! I have an 16-inch Preban upper that I use on my POST BAN Eagle Arms lower which I built without a gas tube! This upper is a T-Bolt action upper and is 100% legal and I even use it to hunt here in PA as I can't use a semi-auto here! I also can add my Ciener 22-conversion and put this upper on my M-16 and shoot full auto! Now, I CAN NOT use the ciener 22-conversion on the post ban lower as that would be a SAW as defined by the crime bill! As long as you have a legitimate LEGAL use for a part..... the ATF or other folks are not going to have a foot to stand on in court! Now, if you are dumb enough to put a Pre-Ban upper on a post ban lower in a way that creates a SAW...... AND you get caught...... that is a whole different story! Hell, I have an 11, 14.5, 16, and three 20-inch uppers. None of them are Post-Ban. I do have a Pre-Ban, Post-Ban, and a registered M-16 that allows me to have legitamate use for any and all of these parts! Good Luck!
Link Posted: 3/1/2001 6:34:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chaingun: Back40 you're a dumb@ss.
In your situation what excuse are you going to give for owning parts which can not legally be used on any gun you own. I think the jury could more reasonable say the only reason for this part was to make an illegal post ban assault rifle.
View Quote
One can purchase a Sten parts kit without the intent to build a receiver for it. Many of us have empty bottles, access to gas and old rags, but there is lack of proof to show intent for building molotov cocktails. All those household chemicals, is not intent to manufacture illegal drugs. You can legally purchase a pre-ban upper without the intent of using it. You might be building an non-functional mantel piece. The point being owning a legal item is not intent to do something illegl with it. It is up to ATF to show intent, IE catching you with a smoking pre-ban upper at the range. That is intent. This is my opinion (Copyright 2001, all rights reserved).
View Quote
This is also ONLY an opinion and I am not trying to piss anyone off. If I had a 4 position safety and an m-16 bolt assy on my fireplace mantle the feds wouldn't care that I have two ar15s in my display case????????
Link Posted: 3/2/2001 4:14:42 AM EDT
Buy it if you want- keep it separate from your lowers (as in not in the same room). There is nothing wrong with buying a pre-ban upper either for investment purposes or with the intent to attach it to a pre-ban lower that you will purchase some time in the future. Although these laws are NOT unconstitutional (either for overbreadth, vagueness or otherwise), I agree that some of the logic behind these types of prosecutions are rediculous (I have a saw next to my shotgun, does that mean I intend to configure a SB Shotgun? Of course not). However, because it's a stretch in close cases, you don't see them prosecuted very often, in fact, they are almost non-existent unless ancillary to some other more significant criminal prosecution AND the evidence is clear. One that comes to mind is the short-barreled shotgun case where the weapon was broken down into two parts kept in separate drawers of the same dresser. That's really not a stretch and does not take a legal scholar to understand why there was a conviction in that case. BTW, that charge was just an add-on charge to a list of other heavy felonies the guy got popped for.
Link Posted: 3/2/2001 7:12:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2001 7:27:40 AM EDT by RSeacord]
I may not be as informed as the rest of the bunch, but I dont see any problems owning a pre ban upper without having a pre ban lower on which to mount it. The difference between owning parts for an FA M16 and a pre ban upper is that most parts to convert to FA are regulated and FA require the tax stamp. A preban upper is not regulated as per se, meaning you dont have to have a tax stamp to purchase one and it doesnt convert your firearm to an NFA device. I read this as being legal to posess a pre ban upper AND a post ban lower as long as they are not assembled into a single rifle. I HAVE a post ban rifle but I DO own a pre ban CAR15 upper. I dont use it on the post ban lower as I am looking for a good preban lower to use it with. I am not breaking any laws as long as I dont assemble them and the SS (read ATF) would be hard pressed to prove beyond a doubt that I have no intention of purchasing a preban lower. i, think, my heads . . . going to . . explode, must . . finish, quickly. Im porbably not making much sense, but i think youll be alright as long as you dont assemble it w/ your post ban lower, and if you do . . . just dont advertise it to the world.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 5:50:12 PM EDT
I called a supplier to purchase a pre-ban upper assy and they asked if I currently owned an AR15 post-ban rec'r. After discussing the matter they prompted me to contact the ATF before I made the purchase since I had the means to create a weapon which was in violation of federal law. Had I also owned a registered m-16 rec'r it wouldn't have mattered as you can assemble an m-16 as you wish (as I understand it). Since the only way possible to use the part, in the way it was designed to be used (a rifle), was to install it on a post ban rec'r they suggested that I not purchase it. They were happy to sell me the same unit in a post ban configuration. Try this site for more "correct" info.http://www.atf.treas.gov/
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