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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 5/4/2001 1:15:38 AM EDT
Hi, Someone at the gun store I was at today told me that mounting a Itt night vision monocular and a Aimpoint Comp m to my Colt AR 15/ Sporter was illegal in California. He said that any night vision that was mounted to a rifle was illegal. Both Night vison and scope units are non magnified. Is it true that night vision is illegal in California? Someone please fill me in!! Im desperate for an answer!
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 5:48:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 5:58:05 AM EDT by California_Kid]
Your gun store person is probably correct. Penal Code Section 468 makes it a misdemeanor ($1,000 and/or one year in county jail) to possess a "sniperscope", defined as: "...any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime." If the IR monocular has an _illuminator_, mounting it on a firearm is a no-no. Magnification is not an issue. If there is no illuminator you may be in a gray area. There are many hand-held illuminated IR monoculars available in any sporting goods store, but you may notice that in California none of them are designed to mount on a firearm. Possessing such a scope and a firearm and a roll of duct tape might put you in jeopardy. [chainsawkill] Fish and Game code section 2005 makes it illegal to possess, while hunting, both an IR scope and an IR illuminator. Illegal even if you don't have a firearm. However, the section applies only to hunting for birds, mammals, amphibia, or fish. If you are hunting for velociraptors you can use an IR spotting scope, but you can't mount it on your firearm. Here's a handy link for finding California laws: [url]http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/[/url] Click on the California Law button to go to the search engine. It's simplistic and kind of quirky, but pretty up-to-date and complete.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:01:34 AM EDT
Correct It is legal in California to own night vision goggles and other optics providing they do not have any means for attaching to a firearm. GW
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:00:52 AM EDT
Key items of note: While hunting - you cannot possess the IR items. On the rifle - Cannot mount. California prohibits hunting during the night time. In these two situations it is presumed that you intend to hunt outside of the appropriate hours. Now, if you are NOT hunting, you may possess and use in the wild. Presumably you would be taking camera pictures, and stuff like that.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:13:39 AM EDT
It is illegal for you to speak of mounting IR scopes on your rifle- it was banned under Sec214.003 of the PRK code. Any further mention of this "assault nite lite" will automatically make you forfiet your rights to own a AR-15 in CA and banning all firearms within 1000 miles of a school...oh, wait, that has already happened....
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 10:01:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 3:09:29 PM EDT by Dave_G]
The wording of the law makes it illegal simply to [b]knowingly possess[/b] a sniperscope. It states that "...sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime." An Aimpoint Comp M is an electronic telescope with or without magnifying lenses. The IR light source can be a hand held flashlight with an IR filter. The section says "adaptable" not "adapted". LEOs and military can have them. Civilians may not.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 10:07:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 10:07:35 AM EDT by IrvineGunNut]
No, we can own ARs... just can't do the following: 1. Buy them, even if we already own one, because we can't be trusted with them. 2. Sell them, even though it is our personal property. 3. Pass them on to our sons (and daughters) when they are old enough or when we die, because they may be gang bangers. 4. We can't move without notifying the DOJ, which lowers our status to rapists and pedophiles. Any more that I forgot???
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 10:39:00 AM EDT
Irvine, you forgot: 5. Build one, unless you already own a registered lower receiver. All this discussion has made me want to go out and buy an Aimpoint Comp M. [pyro]
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 10:47:38 AM EDT
yeah Have to tell em about every hangun you own becouse handguns are "pure concentrated evil"
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 11:31:13 AM EDT
Well, we don't have to tell them yet... if SB35 or SB52 passes, then yeah, we'll have to likely register all of our concealable weapons. For now, they have to settle for the knowledge that I purchased some handguns from XYZ dealer(s). Later down the line, they'll raid the dealer, then pick up my paperwork, THEN they'll know about all my guns. DOH!
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 12:52:06 PM EDT
IrvineGunNut: I hate to disillusion you, but if you went through the DROS process for any handgun purchase, the firearm is already registered with the state. All handguns are required to be registered.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 2:23:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:32:56 PM EDT
Troy, Per the law, the passive NV device "adaptable" to use on a firearm can be a sniperscope on it's own because a "...sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, [b]through the use of a projected infrared light source[/b] and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime." Because the law does not specify that the IR light source must be attached to the firearm, any passive NV device and a Comp M make a sniperscope. You might be able to successfully argue that because you have no IR illuminator, you have no sniperscope, but I wouldn't want to put money on it, especially if you own a tactical light and an IR filter.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:44:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EOD Guy: IrvineGunNut: I hate to disillusion you, but if you went through the DROS process for any handgun purchase, the firearm is already registered with the state. All handguns are required to be registered.
View Quote
No, the DROS is not a registration, BUT it might as well be a temporary registration, so long as you reside in the same place as where it was originally DROSed. Nor does the DROS cover all of your weapons, merely the ones that were acquired legally through the DROS process. SB35 and SB52 both would have you register ALL of your concealables, including those that never made it through the DROS process for whatever reason, if you were to ever purchase a new gun again. (Actually, I think the language was stricken from one of these bills, but not the other?)
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:48:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 11:11:59 PM EDT
Paul, There may be case law supporting the position outlined in what you were told, but lacking a reference to that, I would interpret the law to mean that the NV device needs to be adaptable to the weapon, and that the device works through the use of a projected IR light source. Nothing in the law requires that the IR light source also be attached. The kicker is that passive NV devices were designed to function without the need for active IR illumination under most conditions. So...Remove the IR illuminator from the NV device and do not carry any IR light sources with you. No IR light source, No sniperscope. Maybe...
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 5:04:48 AM EDT
IrvineGunNut, Sorry, but when it comes to handguns DROS and 4473 is registration!!! All handguns get registered with the CA DOJ when you DROS through an FFL on a 4473...Rifles and shotguns are Dros'ed as long arms....CA DOJ knows exactly what you bought in terms of handguns provided you have filled out a 4473 and got dros'ed through an FFL...Granted that you can move from your current address, but really, how hard is it for them to find you anywhere in the state!! They do have a list of what you own and where you can be found! Notice how many shops have closed since SB23?? All of those DROS and 4473 records are now in CA DOJ/BATF hands....!!!
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 5:27:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2001 5:27:18 AM EDT by oneshot1kill]
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:40:44 AM EDT
DROS = Dealer's Record Of Sale. It's a form, now electronic, that goes to the CA DoJ for every firearm sold by a dealer in CA. Buyer pays a $14 fee per DROS. DROS for rifles and shotguns has only "long gun" for description. For handguns, DROS includes make, model, and serial number. State has been collecting that data on every handgun sold by a dealer since 1968. Since private-party transfers are illegal, the state's collection of handgun data is a de facto registration. DROSs belong to the state DoJ. BATF Form 4473, the big yellow paper thingie, belongs to the federal government. When a dealer goes out of business the 4473s go to the BATF, not to the state.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 9:04:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 8:42:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2001 4:40:41 PM EDT by trax808]
So if someone is mounting a ITT PVS 14 to a AR it would be illegal? I believe the PVS 14 has a built in IR illuminator, doesnt it? If so is there any way of taking the IR illuminator out? Or is that even possible and will it still function properly?
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:49:07 AM EDT
You're in a gray area trax. The NV device does not require a projected IR light source to function, but the light source does improve the view. I would think, at the minimum, you should remove the light source, as in the bulb. Better yet, call Bruce Colodny. His web site is [url]http://www.gunlaw.com/[/url], and he specializes in California gun law.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 12:14:14 AM EDT
No one has mentioned the bit at the end where it says these can be owned for educational purposes, such as someone who teaches wildlife viewing at night, search & rescue classes, etc.. You would probably need to show that you were really teaching people and not using this for a front. Also, you might have to come up with a good need for a scope with an illuminated aiming device (mil-dot, etc.).
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 5:24:23 AM EDT
trax808, I believe the AN/PVS 14 is a Generation 3 device and has _no_ illuminator. It's a powerful photomultiplier. If it has no illuminator, it does not fit the definition of sniperscope in California PC 468 and is therefore legal to possess and even to mount on a rifle. Just don't get caught hunting with it. That must have cost you a nice chunk of change.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 9:02:22 AM EDT
WSmac, Still in a dark gray area, here. The law says, "nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used [b]solely[/b] for scientific research or educational purposes." If your NV device is adaptable to a firearm and you have an IR illuminator and an electronic telescope (Aimpoint Comp M) you are probably going to be toast if the issue comes up in a legal way. Remember, the law says "possession", not actually mounted on a weapon. If you have the proper weapon mounts (i.e., G,G&G stuff) for your NV device, but claim you are only doing scientific research, nobody is going to believe you. Kid, The PVS-14 has an IR illuminator. The purpose of the illuminator is to enable the operator of the scope to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime when insufficient ambient light is available. The only thing missing is the electronic telescope. A good lawyer could argue that the PVS-14 itself is the telescope. Check the law. It says nothing about reticles or aiming dots. See [url]http://www.ittnv.com/itt/Active/ProductPages/enforcerpvs14[/url] for data and the price of an ITT PVS-14.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 8:47:21 PM EDT
Hi, Someone at the gun store I was at today told me that mounting a Itt night vision monocular and a Aimpoint Comp m to my Colt AR 15/ Sporter was illegal in California. He said that any night vision that was mounted to a rifle was illegal. Both Night vison and scope units are non magnified. Is it true that night vision is illegal in California? Someone please fill me in!! Im desperate for an answer!
View Quote
Of course it is illegal, everything else is. Sounds to me like farting on a Sunday is even illegal in Kalifornia. [V][V][V][V]
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 8:52:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave G: You're in a gray area trax. The NV device does not require a projected IR light source to function, but the light source does improve the view. I would think, at the minimum, you should remove the light source, as in the bulb. Better yet, call Bruce Colodny. His web site is [url]http://www.gunlaw.com/[/url], and he specializes in California gun law.
View Quote
Anyway, as for a serious post. Get a NV non-illuminated scope if indeed legal. Then just take a mini-mag light and use the red filter. Instant spotlight. I used to use that with the NVG's I was issued. They had an IR illuminator, but it didn't do much more than light up the ground in front of you. A small 2 AA flashlight with a red filter does not project light far at all, especially with the beam opened up, but with NV looks like a beacon light and won't harm your NV unless you shine it right in the scope.
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