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Posted: 1/6/2017 9:21:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Cleanest, simplest, most legal way is for her to ship it to an FFL local to you. Pay the $20, do the 4473/NICS thing and be done with it. No harm, no foul, no questions.
ETA: If this is truly an inheritance, the law allows for a person-to-person transfer of a handgun, even out of state. I post the relevant law a few posts down this page. Ship it or go get it. It's your call. You're legal either way. |
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Posted: 1/6/2017 9:37:02 PM EDT
[#2]
You didn't mention what type, pistol or rifle. You can ship YOUR gun FROM YOURSELF to yourself.
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Posted: 1/6/2017 9:40:05 PM EDT
[#3]
It is a 1992 Taurus .357 revolver. They bought it somewhere around 1999 in VA.
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Posted: 1/6/2017 9:53:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Take a drive to see mom...she misses you. Easy peazy.
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Posted: 1/6/2017 10:47:05 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Take a drive to see mom...she misses you. Easy peazy. This. |
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Posted: 1/6/2017 11:42:48 PM EDT
[#6]
Federal Law Mandates that ANY transfer of guns between 2 people who live in different states MUST go thru an FFL. Further, they ruled that handguns and frames can only be transferred by an FFL in the state of the new owner.
So arrange to have her ship it (FedEx or UPS Air ONLY) to your FFL for the transfer. USPO prohibits anyone but Mfrs/Dealers from shipping handguns thru their services. |
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Posted: 1/7/2017 12:44:32 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You didn't mention what type, pistol or rifle. You can ship YOUR gun FROM YOURSELF to yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You didn't mention what type, pistol or rifle. You can ship YOUR gun FROM YOURSELF to yourself. Quoted:
Take a drive to see mom...she misses you. Easy peazy. Both of these suggestions would result in both the mother and the son violating federal law (18 USC 922(a)(3) and 18 USC 922(a)(5)). That's good for up to five years in federal prison (plus the lifetime loss of gun rights). Federal law will require that the transfer go through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. There is no exception for gifts between family members. See LenS' post. |
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Posted: 1/7/2017 9:09:46 AM EDT
[#8]
I posted above that the simplest approach would be for Mom to ship the gun to a local FFL. That may still be true depending on travel convenience but it appears it is also legal for the OP to take possession of the handgun out of state if the gun is truly an inheritance. Don't take my word for it:
ATF FAQ "Unlicensed Persons" To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State . . . snip . . . Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) within the transferee’s State of residence. The transferee may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he or she or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. A person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C 922(a)(5) and 922(d); 27 CFR 478.30, 478.32] The law itself: 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.
No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section: (a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and (b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. |
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Posted: 1/7/2017 9:27:39 AM EDT
[#9]
I would just go see MOM and be done with it. Screw the rules
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Posted: 1/7/2017 9:31:16 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would just go see MOM and be done with it. Screw the rules Turns out the rules allow this (see above). The only question for the OP is whether it's easier for the parties involved to ship the gun or wait until the transfer can take place in person. |
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Posted: 1/7/2017 12:32:21 PM EDT
[#11]
The OP made no remark indicating that it was an inheritance from his Father, so my statement stands as the only legal way to do it.
Normally all property (not otherwise designated in a Will) goes to the surviving spouse, so his Mother inherited the gun. Therefore, for her to "give" it to her Son is a normal transfer under Fed Law and the restrictions apply as to how it has to be done. If one wants to create 2 felons by short-cutting a $80-100 cost of shipping and transfer legally, that is up to them but then any posts on any publicly accessible media (ARfcom) could lead to legal trouble and is enough evidence for a conviction. That all said, family members hand off guns all the time in direct violation of Fed Law, it is just if you get unlucky and caught that you are totally screwed. |
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Posted: 1/7/2017 1:06:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The OP made no remark indicating that it was an inheritance from his Father, so my statement stands as the only legal way to do it. Normally all property (not otherwise designated in a Will) goes to the surviving spouse, so his Mother inherited the gun. Therefore, for her to "give" it to her Son is a normal transfer under Fed Law and the restrictions apply as to how it has to be done. If one wants to create 2 felons by short-cutting a $80-100 cost of shipping and transfer legally, that is up to them but then any posts on any publicly accessible media (ARfcom) could lead to legal trouble and is enough evidence for a conviction. That all said, family members hand off guns all the time in direct violation of Fed Law, it is just if you get unlucky and caught that you are totally screwed. This is the correct answer. |
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Posted: 1/7/2017 7:09:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would just go see MOM and be done with it. Screw the rules Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would just go see MOM and be done with it. Screw the rules There's a difference between being a criminal by committing a crime, even if one manages to get away with it, and doing things legally like an honest, law abiding, responsible person. When one commits a crime, he is betting his freedom, fortune, and future on not getting caught. But folks get caught all sorts of unexpected ways. Pretty much everyone now in prison didn't expect to get caught. If someone understands how to do something legally and still chooses to do it in an illegal way, that's his decision. But at least if he understands how to do it legally, he's made a conscious decision. Quoted:
Turns out the rules allow this (see above). The only question for the OP is whether it's easier for the parties involved to ship the gun or wait until the transfer can take place in person. And you're assuming facts not in evidence. The gun is not the OP's by inheritance unless it was specifically bequeathed to him by will (which was formally probated as required by law) or unless under the intestate succession laws of the State in which the OP's father lived the OP gets the gun. We have no information from which could be inferred that either is the case. So once again, LenS is absolutely correct. |
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Posted: 1/7/2017 10:56:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And you're assuming facts not in evidence. The gun is not the OP's by inheritance unless it was specifically bequeathed to him by will (which was formally probated as required by law) or unless under the intestate succession laws of the State in which the OP's father lived the OP gets the gun. We have no information from which could be inferred that either is the case. So once again, LenS is absolutely correct. You're right, of course. I assumed inheritance, but we don't know that. FWIW, I was the first to say that the OP's mom should just ship the gun to an FFL. |
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Posted: 1/8/2017 3:52:47 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:....FWIW, I was the first to say that the OP's mom should just ship the gun to an FFL. Absolutely and kudos. When this subject comes up around the Internet it's kind of scary the sort of preposterous suggestions folks come up with. It's especially scary when one considers that the federal law has been in effect for almost 50 years. But you hit the best and most generally correct answer, especially with the limited information we have. Well done. |
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Posted: 1/8/2017 8:43:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When this subject comes up around the Internet it's kind of scary the sort of preposterous suggestions folks come up with. It's especially scary when one considers that the federal law has been in effect for almost 50 years. True, but I'm confident that the OP could go visit Mom and bring home a gun and not a single fuck would be given by anyone carrying a federal badge. But why risk it when it's so easy to follow the letter of the law? |
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Posted: 1/8/2017 2:47:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True, but I'm confident that the OP could go visit Mom and bring home a gun and not a single fuck would be given by anyone carrying a federal badge. But why risk it when it's so easy to follow the letter of the law? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When this subject comes up around the Internet it's kind of scary the sort of preposterous suggestions folks come up with. It's especially scary when one considers that the federal law has been in effect for almost 50 years. True, but I'm confident that the OP could go visit Mom and bring home a gun and not a single fuck would be given by anyone carrying a federal badge. But why risk it when it's so easy to follow the letter of the law? Until the gun is stolen and the police get involved. Answer a single innocuouse question the 'wrong' way and the brown stuff hits the oscillating rotary device. |
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Posted: 1/8/2017 8:09:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Until the gun is stolen and the police get involved. Answer a single innocuouse question the 'wrong' way and the brown stuff hits the oscillating rotary device. So, how does that work exactly? The OP grabs the gun while visiting mom. Some time later, the gun is stolen and the OP files a police report. The police, investigating a burglary decides that the bigger issue is the provenance of the gun so they start asking questions about how the the OP got the gun. It's not sufficient for them when he says "it was my dad's" and they want to know all the details about how the gun was transferred. Instead of pursuing the burglary investigation, they bring in the ATF to file federal charges. Is that about right? |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 3:27:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, how does that work exactly? The OP grabs the gun while visiting mom. Some time later, the gun is stolen and the OP files a police report. The police, investigating a burglary decides that the bigger issue is the provenance of the gun so they start asking questions about how the the OP got the gun. It's not sufficient for them when he says "it was my dad's" and they want to know all the details about how the gun was transferred. Instead of pursuing the burglary investigation, they bring in the ATF to file federal charges. Is that about right? Gun gets stolen. Shows up a crime scene (not necessarily at a murder scene, but found on a felon during a traffic stop, etc.) likely outside of VA where OP obtained it from mom. LEO calls MFR and runs serial. MFR says I sold it to Acme Sporting Goods. LEO contacts Acme. Acme says according to our gun log we sold it to Mr. OP, Sr., and here's a copy of the 4473 and SP-65 that Mr. OP, Sr. completed when it bought the gun here in VA. LEO contacts Mr. OP, Sr.'s residence and talks to OP's mom who says, "I gave it to my son in TN." LEO now has knowledge that OP and OP's mom committed a felony. All because someone on ARFCOM gave him bad advice. Don't think it's possible? I lost track of the number of times the ATF and other agencies asked us to turn over info back when I sold guns. |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 8:46:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LEO contacts Mr. OP, Sr.'s residence and talks to OP's mom who says, "I gave it to my son in TN." LEO now has knowledge that OP and OP's mom committed a felony. All because someone on ARFCOM gave him bad advice. Don't think it's possible? I lost track of the number of times the ATF and other agencies asked us to turn over info back when I sold guns. A trace is surely posssible. Prosecuting the family for an illegal but otherwise innocent gun transfer is highly unlikely. Do you really think some local cop is going to make a FEDERAL case out an interstate gun transfer between family members? Would they even have the authority to do that? To the OP, sorry to hijack your thread. Have mom ship the gun to an FFL. The world will keep spinning and nobody has to get their panties in a wad. |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 1:19:31 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A trace is surely posssible. Prosecuting the family for an illegal but otherwise innocent gun transfer is highly unlikely. Do you really think some local cop is going to make a FEDERAL case out an interstate gun transfer between family members? Would they even have the authority to do that? To the OP, sorry to hijack your thread. Have mom ship the gun to an FFL. The world will keep spinning and nobody has to get their panties in a wad. It happens. There was a SCOTUS case about a straw purchase that went through an FFL (twice, once for each person). Abramski v US. |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 1:21:47 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It happens. There was a SCOTUS case about a straw purchase that went through an FFL (twice, once for each person). Abramski v US. The ex-cop involved was dirty. They were after him. All they had was the gun thing. If it had only been the gun transfer they never would have brought the case. |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 1:36:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ex-cop involved was dirty. They were after him. All they had was the gun thing. If it had only been the gun transfer they never would have brought the case. link? |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 1:40:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I posted above that the simplest approach would be for Mom to ship the gun to a local FFL. That may still be true depending on travel convenience but it appears it is also legal for the OP to take possession of the handgun out of state if the gun is truly an inheritance. Don't take my word for it: ATF FAQ "Unlicensed Persons" The law itself: Quote HistoryQuoted:
I posted above that the simplest approach would be for Mom to ship the gun to a local FFL. That may still be true depending on travel convenience but it appears it is also legal for the OP to take possession of the handgun out of state if the gun is truly an inheritance. Don't take my word for it: ATF FAQ "Unlicensed Persons" To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State . . . snip . . . Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) within the transferee’s State of residence. The transferee may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he or she or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. A person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C 922(a)(5) and 922(d); 27 CFR 478.30, 478.32] The law itself: 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.
No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section: (a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and (b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. Seems to me that Mom could just loan it to you for a while, for 'sporting purposes', whatever that is, and put it in her will. Eventually, thru the natural order of the things, it will become yours. Or maybe your father willed it to you, and Mom was just care taking until you got to go claim it. Jus' Sayin' |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 1:44:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Just take a drive and visit Mom.
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Posted: 1/9/2017 1:56:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
link? Here's one I found quickly. There are probably a lot of others: http://www.roanoke.com/webmin/news/bruce-abramski-to-serve-years-probation/article_88850ac3-ee79-5518-95e6-8780a605ed25.html BTW, I seem to recall some people close to the case or folks who knew the guy weighing in here on ARFcom. The dude in question was a dirtball. |
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Posted: 2/1/2017 1:27:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Looks like I am just going to get her to ship it to an FFL here in TN that does Person to Person transfers. Seems the correct way. The gun was NOT willed to me. She just doesn't want a giant .357 magnum pistol lol. Thanks for all of the help.
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