I always wondered why we AR Clone Builders don't go as far as the AK guys.



There are high end AK builders offering this service. I even considered cutting down an auto sear and silver soldering it into an AK. It's just parts.

Guys are modifying M14 auto trip assemblies to make their M1A's look like M14's.



Why can't we put fake pins installed into blind holes especially if they are offset from the proper location? If that doesn't fly glue them on.

I don't forget. I just toss my dagger at them. 


So you believe people breaking laws is justification for more laws? That doesn't make sense. If you're saying those who wish to degrade our rights consider it justification, well maybe they do, but I don't care what they think. They're wrong and the US Constitution does not support their beliefs or goals.

I try to make allies from enemies (or neutral parties) but I'm not going to waste my time if that's impossible.


True enough. I cannot rely on their discretion to save me, however. Some SS guard in the 1940's may not have made the camp he works in, but is still a problem which much be dealt with accordingly. I cannot treat him the way I'd want to be treated because I would never work there, Fuhrer or not. That's an extreme example, of course, but one cannot follow The Golden Rule all the time. Sometimes you just have to win.


In this particular case regarding these lowers, I believe the problem will resolve itself when a superior realizes the particular IOI is a "douche bag" without the backing of the USC/CFR. We'll see I guess.

I guess I don't know why they aren't trained or hire qualified people to be ATF agents.

I deal with the FDA in serious issues and they typically hire people that are qualified - I can't imagine having a drug or radiation therapy machine that has its fate upon the public from someone  who isn't a drug or radiation "guy or gal". I would expect the same for firearms laws too - After all the last Pres had the CDC consider it a health problem didn't he??

Like any other profession they should just hire qualified and or train to be qualified and credentialed.  

We shouldn't suffer or suffer legal intimidation due to their ignorance.

Sorry I don't agree with them being very ignorant of firearms or the technicalities they enforce.  They are supposed to offer profesional expertise - not the other way around!

You don't need an FFL to actually do the engraving.  I asked why the engraving wasn't considered "gunsmithing" and was told that it was considered "decorating" and that cleaning doesn't qualify as gunsmithing, either.  I asked if the customer needed a hole drilled somewhere (not FCP related) in the receiver at the same time I had it for engraving would be considered "gunsmithing" and she said yes.  At that point I felt I should leave well enough alone and thanked her for her "help."  This whole process took almost a month to complete, most of the time waiting for lawyer to respond to her questions.

That being said, if a person were to ship the firearm for engraving across state lines, the recipient of the firearm must have an FFL.

The persons who become BATF agents ARE qualified.  The vast majority of the persons who post on these internet forums WOULD NOT qualify to be an BATF agent.

Unlike the internet, if a red flag or something questionable comes across their radar, they must investigate.  They uphold Federal law; real life is not an internet forum.  they make a mistake, they could lose their job and/or become liable personally.  It doesn't help that our firearm laws are ambiguous and redundant to begin with…. those these same laws ARE NOT recognized as ambiguous and redundant by Uncle Sam (especially in the current political climate).  If an agent finds something that needs further inquiry, it must be investigated and reported in writing.  There is no grey area. There is no "well they did it, so can I."  If there is precedent, it must be documented.  That takes time.  Yeah, that sucks.  Until the laws are less ambiguous and redundant, that is what EVERYONE is stuck with.  Again, any law enforcement agent, Federal or otherwise, has discretion.  If you work with the agent and treat the person the way you want to be treated, you will get MUCH further than giving them shit and stonewalling them.  They WILL follow through. How you get to the end point is up to you.  

ABOVE ALL ELSE, as previously highlighted by other posters, BATF deal with much more than firearms.  I have had conversations with people who are get almost irate that the Feds put energy into tobacco tax.  The movement of tobacco across state lines to cheat taxes build profits for organizations that mean harm to our Country, the same organizations that have ties to the ownership of many establishments which sell the tobacco products (it doesn't take a rocket scientist to connect the dots).  This is just one example of many that our BATF agents are dealing with.

I disagree...I met several agents and even some of the guys at tech branch...  not impressed at all and most with "little" gun experience..  quick to charge you with possession of an MG instead of correctly stating "worn or broken" parts caused the doubling.

One tech branch guy insisted that after properly demiling an M-14 and I somehow put all the torch cut pieces back together but as a semi-auto...it was STILL a machinegun.  I even went so far as to say what if I melted it down into an ashtray...  He says "still a machine gun...because that's what it started out as...."  at this point my boss pulled me away before I really embarrassed him...


Don't even get me started on the agent who performed an inspection on my friend (FFL) who couldn't even count...was getting ready to write him up because SHE lost count.  All while my buddy is going no...you are wrong.  She "allowed" him a day to reconcile (wasn't needed) and she came back to check... missed the count AGAIN but luckily his wife was shadowing her and called her on it...

Sure many of the agents are fine... but when you come across a retard...those need to be culled swiftly and efficiently...

Seriously?  You just invoked terrorism?

Isn't there a Godwin's Law type thing about that yet?

So how many agents have lost their jobs for tampering with guns to make them machine guns?  Or flat out lied...?  I would bet none...

I have read most of this thread with some interest.  Nothing I have seen on this receiver makes it a machinegun as it is not a receiver that will allow for full auto function since it had no place for an auto sear or the correct 6 parts needed for this. This receiver is no machinegun!. I pity the ATF agent that chases this one as he or she will look like the biggest fools in law enforcement.     It is not illegal to machine a lower to m-16 specs as long as the sear hole is not drilled.   Markings are just that decorations and for those who do not understand why being as close to accurate is important when you trying to replicate something is obvious not a collector or re-enactor.   Marks are everything. Its like wearing Levis to a WW2 reenactment.  It doesn't work! Like a copy of a fine painting we all know its not the real thing but its close and brings the similar interest Unless something is trade marked there is no reason you cannot use them.  They are decorative and  I have read were ATF agrees.  Just because you have auto marked on it does not make it a machinegun.    I think that this will be dropped quickly and everyone will their receivers back.   It worries that some on this board tend to think it is stupid or crazy to try to be accurate.   What's the point of being retro if you are not accurate? .......... Keep the retro faith boys!

Just remembered the incident where ATF agents "lost" a truck load of cigarettes in an attempted sting op in Milwaukee several years ago. "Top Men", and one woman in this case. Same group of agents left an M16 in a car and it got boosted. I got to meet the woman and one of the agents in regard to a firearms matter. Did not seem that sharp on technical stuff. Came across as bureaucrats with badges.

remember this?

]http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1032834_Remember_those_Airsoft_guns_seized_by_the_ATF_in_WA___UPDATE_.html[/url][/url][/url]

I went to a DEA school back in 1986 and ATF came in to teach a class. The agent said they had a lot of federal officers who were seizing MAC type barrel extensions believing that they were silencers.
More recently, a local gunshop took in a converted SP1 on the shelf with the happy hole drilled, but no auto sear.  ATF came out, looked at it and pronounced it ok as no auto sear was in it. They left it with the shop.
The best one was a local manufacturer who called me to help identify some old gun parts.  A local resident had passed away and his storage unit was full of guns and gun parts. The sheriff's office came out to get the guns and parts. ATF came out to look at them and pronounced them OK to release back to the family.  The manufacturer picked them up from the sheriff's office on behalf of the family. In the box of parts I was asked to ID was a couple of M1A1 Thompson lowers separated from their intact and barrelled uppers (machine guns) which were elsewhere in the box. I told the manufacturer what he had and he told me the story about both ATF and the sheriff's office giving them the stuff.  SMH

A friend of mine had several family heirloom shotguns stolen in a burglery.  She got them back months later from the ATF after they were recovered in a drug bust.  However, all of them had their barrels chopped off to about 12" long, and the ATF gave them back to her!!!

Soon to be on "The Rest of the Story".......whete another agent kicks in the frt door on the middle of the night.........whete by the News picks up on it and declares "Major gun running operation busted".

I know some officers who confiscated an mg34 dewat, and three mg34 parts kits, from a student dorm. the dewat had a bar of steel welded into the bolt channel and barrel was welded to the receiver. the kid was a star wars cosplayer and wanted a more realistic heavy blaster. Somehow the atf was called in... they tried to say that the bolt assembly was unregistered and was the machingun... then they thought the manufacturing codes on the individual parts was the serial number... I had to explain to them that during the war, the Germans didn't stamp the manufactures name on their arms and they used codes instead... all charges were then dropped...

Just received word from Victor at US Anodizing that the receivers in question have been taken for "further investigating"!  

Guess I'll never see that again.  I did call the Agent but of course no answer. I doubt I get a return phone call either.

I just dont get how Troy & Colt can do their receivers the same but I cannot

Oh well, its not a done deal yet, but I'm sure they will never be returned.

And as for insurance, US Anodizing does not offer it for BATF interference/confiscations


***Edit- TM is out of 80%rs for the final kick in the crotch

I think the ATF should be taken in for "further investigating"! 

Buncha fricken retards

I had to share a room with about 5 of them a year or so ago. Based on my observation they all thought they were Tier 1, Level 3 operators with egos bigger than the Earth itself.

I agree..I visited tech branch about 15 years ago....their knowledge of firearms seemed to have come from old "Guns & Ammo" mags....

They had a built in range (in down town DC ) rated for < .50cal.  I asked why they needed a range in an office building?

The answer?  If they got called to court to testify on a case about an FG-42 (for example)...they walked over to one of their several FG-42s...walked to the next room where the range was...and fired a box of ammo through it...  this way...when they were asked by the judge/attorney if they were "familiar" with the FG-42 they could "truthfully" say ..."yes"..

Of course they couldn't explain the inner workings or its history...but they were "familiar" with it...

I just shook my head....

talking about the ATF..

 and I "doubled"!!! 

lol

i find it quite amusing that you would actually expect "insurance" to cover something like this!

Wow.  Did not see it going in that direction.  Sorry :(

On the plus side the way ATF works, your receiver might actually be a functional one by the time they return it.

But this is ok? ATF never ceases to amaze me
3rd pin jig

Lots of stuff is legal, but still not wise to own,  I am a FFL/SOT and I would not buy one of these jigs.

You can bet, the BATF does pay attention to what is going on with the 3rd hole jigs, I see them on gun broker all the time as well

The thing about the BATF, you just never know when or where they are going to show up and what little tiny thing is going to get their dander up!

I have a feeling the BATFE AGent will press for a voluntary surrendering of the lowers if  you make a stink with their regional supervisor.  Due to my own unfortunate run in with BATFE over a torch cut demil receiver and an aluminum casting mold I had made to build a semi MP-44 using the direct gas impingement and receiver extensions of the AR system.    The BATman even tried to get my employer, the county sheriff at the time, to pressure me to sign the voluntary surrender form instead of pressing to have my legal demil parts and tinkerings returned.       I refused to cave in, took over 2 years but I finally got my stuff back.  Message me offline if you want specifics, I won't post them here.

Those of you whom had faux sear circle receivers confiscated, I'd be looking forward to a visit from your local BATmen, with them threatening to charge you with being an unlawful mfg of MGs.

I wasn't going to respond, but I'm starting to think maybe I should. I will preface this by saying that I don't necessarily agree with the logic in what I'm about to say, but it's how I understand the BATFE's current interpretation to be in regards to this.

As most people are aware, there is a point where a piece of raw material becomes a firearm. 80% is just industry terminology and has no legal weight, but it conveys the principle pretty well - an Object which is not a gun but the very next operation, no matter how insignificant, will push it over into firearm status. As was said earlier, there is no gray area with the BATFE. It either is or it isn't. I have not had the pleasure to deal with BATFE directly, but I have worked with several people in the industry who have and their accounts are consistent with the agent's stance. That stance is the moment an operation is started it considered the same as if it were finished. The moment a cutter hits an 80% 1911 frame rail and it's the same as if the rail were cut all the way though - even if the cut is only a couple thousandths of an inch deep. The moment the tip of a center drill pecks the fire control group hole on an 80% AR-15 lower and it's the same as if the hole were drilled to size and all the way through.

Their stance one MGs I would imagine is the exact same. So IF they determine the sear pin hole was started, even if only .003" deep with an engraver, than in their eyes it has fallen into MG status. That's all it takes, doesn't matter if it doesn't work - it's still a machine gun it's just a broken machine gun. And yes, engraving would count towards manufacturing. I forget which company it was, but there was a company several years ago selling 80% receivers and engraving the locations of the fire control group holes as well as the fire control group pocket outline as a guide for home builders. BATFE confiscated all the lowers but allowed the company to continue selling non-engraved 80% lowers.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with that stance but that's how I understand it to be. I hope that can help some people understand why an agent might see engraving and call it a full firearm or a MG even if it isn't reasonable to think it's one as well as reinforce why engraving the sear pin off center, and not installing faux pins, etc is a good idea.

With respect, your interpretation of the law is questionable.
Your definition of an "80% lower" as being an "Object which is not a gun but the very next operation, no matter how insignificant, will push it over into firearm status" is, to put it simply, not accurate.
You can take an 80% lower and engrave decorative flames on it if you want, and it's still an 80% lower.  You can take an 80% "modern" lower and re-profile it to look like an A1 lower, and it's still an 80% lower.  It's only when you make changes that make it closer to a complete firearm (according to the ATF's definition) that you become the manufacturer.

Your example of the guy marking his unfinished lowers to show where to drill the holes is not the same as simulating a "hole" but purposefully putting it in the wrong spot. 
Because the faux pin is not in the right spot to drill, it is purely decorative and carries no legal importance.

Yes, I can understand why it might catch an agent's attention.  I don't blame him for taking a closer look.  But if he knows his job (which I think is not asking too much of our government employees), the agent will measure the placement of the faux pin, understand that it is NOT a mark to show where to drill, and return the lower.  If (again) he knows his job, this should not have taken more than 10 minutes.

You are correct. I should have been more clear that I meant the next operation towards completing the receiver made it a firearm even if the operation wasn't complete.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with their stance, just relaying what I have been told by people who have dealt with them directly about similar issues.

Dupe