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Posted: 12/4/2016 1:24:50 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the issue is with the fake auto-sear engraving, it is likely a new agent who doesn't know about them. It should be settled in short order. There was a similar thing on AKfiles in which an ATF Agent gave a guy some grief for having the selector markings and notches on his AK. The agent thought the markings and notches were what made an AK full-auto. It's a good thing those idiots aren't in charge of creating and enforcing arbitrary laws. 
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Posted: 12/4/2016 2:43:18 PM EDT
[#2]
I think the biggest thing in my favor is the pic showing the TROY receiver. They are mass producing them, so there has already been precedent set.
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Posted: 12/4/2016 2:56:24 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
In the end of October I sent in two upper and one lower receiver to receive anodizing. Since its been a month I thought I'd contact Victor and see were he is re: my work. This is his scary reply: Hi Mark, I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, we been real busy here. On Nov. 8th ATF conducted a routine inspection of our facility. During this inspection a handful of receivers (like your lower) was set aside for further review. I was asked not to work on them, till they make a determination. We are still waiting on ATF, hopefully we will hear something from them soon. I will keep you posted, any questions please let me know. Victor No further explanations. My lower in question is an 80%er that I finished out after having Braceman re-profile and engrave. Will they be confiscated? Will there be reparations? Compensations? .....and my response: Victor, This is quite concerning. What are their questions or concerns? I have had close to the same receiver registered as part of my 607 with no problems, its was approved. Will they be confiscated, destroyed, etc? Do you have insurance for such matters if indeed we dont get them returned? Thank you. My question is why would you put that on there in the first place? You know what type of people dealing with, they have no common sense. (that is why they for the Govt.) If you are trying to be "KOOL" by engraving that on the lower that is just dumb. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 3:14:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My question is why would you put that on there in the first place? You know what type of people dealing with, they have no common sense. (that is why they for the Govt.) If you are trying to be "KOOL" by engraving that on the lower that is just dumb. It is not dumb to want your reproduction/resto to look as close to the real thing as possible, people have been doing marks and stuff on all kinds of stuff since the day reproduction became a thing. The point is, it is not illegal and it does not make the gun any closer to illegal than running down to the local Cabela's and picking up a new AR15. I will be damned if some dimwit at the BATF has a hardon for guys that like to do reproduction guns makes the marks on their gun to make it look real, all he has to do is look at how the receiver is milled and know that it is not a FA gun. You play dumb, many of us will play smart and build our guns as we see fit. Calling your fellow gun owners dumb because they scratched a certain mark on their reproduction is just low and stupid. Now go back and play with your tinker toys and let the big boys play with their evil black toys! 
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Posted: 12/4/2016 3:50:25 PM EDT
[#5]
That was a photo taken off the web BTW, not my Troy. I have seen alot of the Troys with horrible workmanship and coating flaws, so this doesn't really surprise me at all if the ring wasn't seated. The point to the photo was that it is a commercially available product and there are a bunch of them that have been sold.
Just trying to throw in a point, guess we wont know until they get back from burning the Clinton executive orders & agenda docs sent to them before the election. However I doubt it will do anything but delay some people getting their property returned to them. CHEERS! 
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Posted: 12/4/2016 3:54:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is not dumb to want your reproduction/resto to look as close to the real thing as possible, people have been doing marks and stuff on all kinds of stuff since the day reproduction became a thing. The point is, it is not illegal and it does not make the gun any closer to illegal than running down to the local Cabela's and picking up a new AR15. I will be damned if some dimwit at the BATF has a hardon for guys that like to do reproduction guns makes the marks on their gun to make it look real, all he has to do is look at how the receiver is milled and know that it is not a FA gun. You play dumb, many of us will play smart and build our guns as we see fit. Calling your fellow gun owners dumb because they scratched a certain mark on their reproduction is just low and stupid. Now go back and play with your tinker toys and let the big boys play with their evil black toys! ^^^^^THIS^^^^^^ |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 4:31:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is not dumb to want your reproduction/resto to look as close to the real thing as possible, people have been doing marks and stuff on all kinds of stuff since the day reproduction became a thing. The point is, it is not illegal and it does not make the gun any closer to illegal than running down to the local Cabela's and picking up a new AR15. I will be damned if some dimwit at the BATF has a hardon for guys that like to do reproduction guns makes the marks on their gun to make it look real, all he has to do is look at how the receiver is milled and know that it is not a FA gun. You play dumb, many of us will play smart and build our guns as we see fit. Calling your fellow gun owners dumb because they scratched a certain mark on their reproduction is just low and stupid. Now go back and play with your tinker toys and let the big boys play with their evil black toys! I not calling any one dumb. We are not dealing with people who think like us. There all kinds of stupid people who post shit on you tube that are just asking for trouble. Point in case is the OP's trouble with the ATF he did nothing wrong ( not that he posted on you tube). I agree with you there stupid agents who will make your life miserable, but that is what they do. You can piss and moan about how stupid the rules are but unless they change we have two choices abide or not. Remember they have deeper pockets than all of us. I had the ATF visit me about 40 years ago, the agent was clueless but could have made my life a real pain, Maybe things will change in the near future, until then I will play with my tinker toys.
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Posted: 12/4/2016 4:50:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I not calling any one dumb. We are not dealing with people who think like us. There all kinds of stupid people who post shit on you tube that are just asking for trouble. Point in case is the OP's trouble with the ATF he did nothing wrong ( not that he posted on you tube). I agree with you there stupid agents who will make your life miserable, but that is what they do. You can piss and moan about how stupid the rules are but unless they change we have two choices abide or not. Remember they have deeper pockets than all of us. I had the ATF visit me about 40 years ago, the agent was clueless but could have made my life a real pain, Maybe things will change in the near future, until then I will play with my tinker toys.
I know what they do, what they said and how stupid some of them can be, as a FFL/SOT I have had to read the rules to a few of them over the years so they could understand them. I spent close to 30 years in the Army as an officer, the last 6 of them working in the Pentagon and Washington DC and I have been a FFL/SOT for over 10 years producing products for the Military and Law Enforcement industry, so I get to interact with them dimwits quite often! As I have posted many times the operative word is "Intent" and I don't let them tell me what my "Intent" was or is. I tell them quite often they are dumbshits. Be polite if you get a visit, but don't be afraid to point out what the rules and laws actually say, which is what I am sure the company involved in this stupidity is doing so he can get the products back to his customers. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 5:07:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, teach me something Diesel1, you don't think that the selector switch is straight up and down enough? Serious question in that I am just not following you and will admit "I don't know what I don't know" and want to learn. Thanks It's "close enough for Government work" if that is an acceptable standard. And most people would probably not notice it. But I've seen them perfectly vertical and also off by a very noticeable amount both on factory rifles and kit/replacement parts. I've seen rifles on magazine covers with the selector noticeably out of position. The selector on the Troy rifle appears to be off by maybe only 5 degrees. Yeah; nit picky as I admitted but it's probably going to be off the same amount in the safe position. And to me; it's a defect. Here we are; talking about the placement of a fake sear pin mark on receivers and a functional part (the selector) is not exactly right. The selector detent engages indentations on the selector shaft. The indentations are probably made with a small ball end milling cutter on a CNC machine. If the selector is not fixtured properly or if the ball mill "walks" a bit, the location of the indentations will be off. I've also seen lower receivers with mis-machined detent holes which caused the selector to be out of position or to flop around a bit. Fixturing, dull tool, poor process control, who knows? |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 5:11:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, that selector is definitely off. It's canted to the right (the detent for 'fire' is off by a mm or so). I've thrown out 5 different selectors for the same problem. Hey, looky that, someone else has noticed the same thing! |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 5:12:24 PM EDT
[#11]
LOL...WTF....
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just off the phone with Victor at US Anodizing. Here's the poop. The ATF agent has concerns regarding the fake sear pin engraving. Wants to check and make sure that that engraving doesn't classify those receivers as MGs, and I don't mean the car. Victor's only holding aside about 4 receivers that have these "sear pin " engravings. Sounds like all others are fine. Uppers arent even on the radar I guess. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 5:14:16 PM EDT
[#12]
So how does ATF feel about a low shelf receiver that came from the factory with a dimple in the correct spot?
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Posted: 12/4/2016 5:22:35 PM EDT
[#13]
Crap
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Posted: 12/4/2016 6:21:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lets not forget the TROY production GAU5 replicas, that they don't seem to have an issue with. So I doubt this will amount to anything at all.  Did the TROY come with an A2 pistol Grip ? |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 7:33:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So how does ATF feel about a low shelf receiver that came from the factory with a dimple in the correct spot? Depends on who you talk to. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 7:50:18 PM EDT
[#16]
So I wonder if the same dumb ass agent would confiscate a lower with a "x marks the spot" from a grease pencil where the third hole goes? I mean..........what's the difference between a surface marking noting the exact location or a small circular engraving a few thousandths of a inch deep 1/16 of an inch off center from where the actual auto sear hole goes? Braceman has the front end of my GM lower and is going to weld it to the rear of a 80% lower. The pretend third hole is going to be engraved and zero fucks will be given by me. I'm not sending it anywhere to be anodized..................I'm going to norells the SOB and do the work myself.
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Posted: 12/4/2016 10:37:18 PM EDT
[#17]
I'm not sure what his reasoning was, and dont care as long as he realizes that these are OK and I can get it finished up and back to me ASAP.
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Posted: 12/5/2016 5:19:49 PM EDT
[#18]
If they are 80% I don't see how the ATF can claim its a firearm or an NFA weapon? -
Even if the hole is marked and nothing else drilled -The ATF legally allows tubes with a template for say a sten gun- its the next foreseeable action that is enforceable over a law. |
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Posted: 12/5/2016 5:56:21 PM EDT
[#19]
To my knowledge, ther is nothing wrong with having a sear pin engraving, or even a faux sear pin. I remember someone receiving a determination letter before I did my faux pin, BATFE said as long as you can't readily install an auto sear, it is a legal semi auto lower. I can't seem to find the thread now for some reason, this was 3-4 years ago now.
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Posted: 12/5/2016 9:09:49 PM EDT
[#20]
MrM1A1 if you do find it, Please post it!
Thanks |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 2:37:58 AM EDT
[#21]
I feel bad for Victor, hopefully all will end well for those who's receivers are pulled. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 8:47:02 AM EDT
[#22]
I've thought about setting up a small anodizing operation. Not sure if I would want to do it commercially but it certainly would prevent problems. My research indicates that it is not a complicated process. Actually seems simpler than bluing. My BIL does "parkerizing" which is a similar process. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 9:51:04 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've thought about setting up a small anodizing operation. Not sure if I would want to do it commercially but it certainly would prevent problems. My research indicates that it is not a complicated process. Actually seems simpler than bluing. My BIL does "parkerizing" which is a similar process. Similer but completely different. Parkerizing is so easy a cave man can do it......well......so easy that I can do it. But anodizing? Type III, trying to get subtle color variations on 7075....... Let's put it this way. One of the most talented guys on this forum, when it comes to gunwork and stock painting, used to do anodizing but gave it up due to difficulty of getting consistent results. Obviously it can be done successfully, as Victor has shown, but from my research it doesnt look much like parkerizing or bluing processes....and I currently do parkerizing. In the late 70's I had a bluing business. 5 stainless tanks, gas burners, polishing equipment, etc.....but I mostly did the cold rust blues....using nitric and hydrochloric acid solutions. Now, having said all of that.....IF you find yourself doing type iii anodizing I'll send you all kinds of work......if you want it. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 2:08:41 PM EDT
[#24]
With some of the irrational fear shown in this thread, there is no need for new gun laws. They can just scare some into submission.
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Posted: 12/6/2016 3:25:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With some of the irrational fear shown in this thread, there is no need for new gun laws. They can just scare some into submission. 
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Posted: 12/6/2016 3:54:07 PM EDT
[#26]
Will do, but I have been trying to find it, no luck.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MrM1A1 if you do find it, Please post it! Thanks |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 7:43:33 PM EDT
[#27]
When I started engraving I checked with ATF and they told me that a "fake" sear pin outline was OK as long as it was not in exactly the correct spot. They said that if it was precisely located it would indicate where the sear pin hole was to be drilled which would enable it to be "readily modified" to auto.
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Posted: 12/6/2016 8:07:46 PM EDT
[#28]
ATF agents in general are not technical experts on this stuff,
For most, inspecting FFL's, SOT's, etc in a small portion of their routine duties. The vast majority of them spend their time counting alcohol and tobacco tax stamps, you know where the A and T come from in ATF. Most are not even gun guys or, gals. When in doubt most will utilize those power point schematics that show the difference in M16 and AR15 fire control parts among other references to use in the field. Or, they will submit stuff to the technical branch and let them make a determination when they know they are out of their element. I work part time for a SOT and have seen it. Years ago, one of the older agents who was a gun guy and actually cool, use to come by the shop to train other agents on what was OK, questionable and not when it came to parts. I think this will all be OK when it is said and done. No need for the tinfoil and AA guns for the black helicopters....... Wpns Man |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 8:23:36 PM EDT
[#29]
I used to know a retired ATF agent who said that when he hired in, they would NOT HIRE YOU, if you were a "gun guy". I once asked him if he ever saw any neat WWII machineguns while doing his job. He said "Just once". Someone informed him that their neighbor had an unregistered German MP-40. However, when he showed up to question the owner of the MP-40, he readily produced it and showed that he had machined off the rails on the inside of the receiver tube so that it would not work ??. I thought he was joking, but he never knew the guy pulled a fast one on him (an MP-40 receiver tube IS smooth on the inside) and probably threw it in a lake as soon as he left.
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Posted: 12/6/2016 8:58:02 PM EDT
[#30]
I've hear that also,
Our old agent actually told me that they want criminology, social science graduates that they can "train" the way they want them so, they are "unbiased". I will ad this, when speaking of retro builds. Some of the guys who insist on using unmodified M16 FCG parts are seriously taking a gamble knowing the level of technical expertise most agents have. While the ATF basically overlooked Colt using FA Carriers a decade ago does not mean they are OK with FCG parts. I have modified and used several parts but no way I will use even one unmodified part. I see guys saying only the disconnector is required to prevent a slam fire FCG and technically I would agree. However, the FA hammer, trigger and selector will be a red flag to any agent and has not been OK'd by any opinion I've ever read from the technical branch. You better damn well hope it isn't worn out enough to let it double if they know how to test it correctly. Not worth the hassle and your build is never going to be real so, why bother. My .02 and I'll get off my box, Wpns Man |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 10:57:51 PM EDT
[#31]
What a total crock! If I want a third pin I'll set it up and drill a hole where it needs to go. I don't need a little circle to tell me where it goes.
I 'MIGHT' kind of sort of possibly see their point if it was spot marked with a center drill or punch. But not a frickin circle! I have man parts too so maybe that shows some sort of intent too??? 
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Posted: 12/7/2016 3:07:35 AM EDT
[#32]
First off, isn't it sad that alphabet soup agencies get to have opinions that carry weight of law? Exactly as though Congress had passed said "law"? Just WOW!
Secondly, most here are very well trained subjects. The few citizens in this thread understand the rules, and have read them with their own eyes. The rest just regurgitate what other subjects have said. Like well trained dogs. That said, the Sig Brace comes to mind. Who knows what ATF'S "opinion" will be tomorrow. Or the next day. Or the day after that. It all boils down to the fact that all of this is illegal and unconstitutional. The second amendment was written to protect military weapons for use by the militia. This is why they were able to regulate short barrel shotguns. "They have no military use". It's all B.S. we have 4 years to step by step, systematically dismantle this and take back our God given rights. Exactly the way they were taken from us in the first place. |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 11:28:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First off, isn't it sad that alphabet soup agencies get to have opinions that carry weight of law? Exactly as though Congress had passed said "law"? Just WOW! Secondly, most here are very well trained subjects. The few citizens in this thread understand the rules, and have read them with their own eyes. The rest just regurgitate what other subjects have said. Like well trained dogs. That said, the Sig Brace comes to mind. Who knows what ATF'S "opinion" will be tomorrow. Or the next day. Or the day after that. It all boils down to the fact that all of this is illegal and unconstitutional. The second amendment was written to protect military weapons for use by the militia. This is why they were able to regulate short barrel shotguns. "They have no military use". It's all B.S. we have 4 years to step by step, systematically dismantle this and take back our God given rights. Exactly the way they were taken from us in the first place. Really? 
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Posted: 12/7/2016 11:56:54 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I started engraving I checked with ATF and they told me that a "fake" sear pin outline was OK as long as it was not in exactly the correct spot. They said that if it was precisely located it would indicate where the sear pin hole was to be drilled which would enable it to be "readily modified" to auto. That's why I mark all my sear pins .0005 off center... |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 12:12:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's why I mark all my sear pins .0005 off center... my first m16 had a sear hole off .0010 
thats funny. |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 1:13:17 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really? U.S. vs Miller, 1939 regarding cut-down shot guns. Good read! |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 1:18:36 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's why I mark all my sear pins .0005 off center... So if we go ahead and drill a hole then, and make it a little bit off, I guess that makes it legal! |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 2:56:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
U.S. vs Miller, 1939 regarding cut-down shot guns. Good read! I have read it many times since I got my FFL |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 3:16:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if we go ahead and drill a hole then, and make it a little bit off, I guess that makes it legal! now there's govt thinking for ya! |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 4:57:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Ridiculous - Is a marking (e.g. tape or ??) on a shotgun barrel under 18" also a no-no? Equally arguable that Its readily convertible to an NFA status because it indicates where a violation could occur -In the shotgun analogy though at least the shotgun is a firearm under the purview of the ATF - an 80% actually may not??
Can One can also make the argument the indicator is there to indicate where one "does not" drill ? It helps us dummies figure out where not to drill and serendipitously create a NFA item just in case if a drill is anywhere near a receiver? |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 5:04:36 PM EDT
[#41]
That's the game the gov plays though. I think it was bad form to ask about reimbursement already though. It wouldn't be Victor's fault, and I can't fathom an insurance company that would touch it with a ten foot pole.
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Posted: 12/7/2016 5:39:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ridiculous - Is a marking (e.g. tape or ??) on a shotgun barrel under 18" also a no-no? Equally arguable that Its readily convertible to an NFA status because it indicates where a violation could occur -In the shotgun analogy though at least the shotgun is a firearm under the purview of the ATF - an 80% actually may not?? Can One can also make the argument the indicator is there to indicate where one "does not" drill ? It helps us dummies figure out where not to drill and serendipitously create a NFA item just in case if a drill is anywhere near a receiver? It makes the brain hurt to try and figure it all out. Following that logic you could argue that the edge of a circle far enough off center marks the point of where to drill. Better yet, what if someone knew the radius of 3 circles drawn with a compass, one from the trigger pin hole, one from the hammer hole, and one from the selector hole that all intersect at the auto sear location. From that logic any milled feature can be used to locate the pin hole (obviously some holes or features would be more accurate than others). If I take a pipe cutter and score a shotgun barrel at a point less than 18", is that a violation? FUBATFE |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 5:58:02 PM EDT
[#43]
The ATF, like most of these TLA government agencies, has such convoluted rules and regs it boggles the mind. I just received an "opinion" from them on how to handle receipt and return shipping of a completed "80%" lower. If the customer lived in my state there was no problem, log it in the book with "No S/N", engrave, and send it back to the customer. If the customer is out of state, receive, log in, then it must be returned to an FFL that is willing to handle the non serialized item. BUT, if I was to also perform some sort of gunsmithing procedure on it then I could send directly back to customer. I told her it didn't make any sense and she agreed but that was the "gospel" according to the ATF attorney she got the advice from.
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Posted: 12/7/2016 6:30:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ATF, like most of these TLA government agencies, has such convoluted rules and regs it boggles the mind. I just received an "opinion" from them on how to handle receipt and return shipping of a completed "80%" lower. If the customer lived in my state there was no problem, log it in the book with "No S/N", engrave, and send it back to the customer. If the customer is out of state, receive, log in, then it must be returned to an FFL that is willing to handle the non serialized item. BUT, if I was to also perform some sort of gunsmithing procedure on it then I could send directly back to customer. I told her it didn't make any sense and she agreed but that was the "gospel" according to the ATF attorney she got the advice from. they do like to quote there lawyers! |
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Posted: 12/8/2016 9:19:42 AM EDT
[#45]
Wouldn't the engraving be considered a gunsmithing activity. If not, why would you need an FFL to do it?
Also, to the guy that marks his sear pin holes a half a thousandths off, seriously?. 0005". That's more perfect than most rifles were ever made! The timing proceedurs adjust for way more error than that. This whole thing is solely here to make sure the 2A has lost its true meaning and that the citizenry is at a disadvantage to its masters. The opinions are created by incompetent lawyers knowingly committing treasonous acts. Common sense gun laws were written right from the beginning. It is called the 2A. Nothing further is needed. All other trash legislation that followed needs to be scrapped and it's supporters hung for treason. |
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Posted: 12/8/2016 10:04:13 AM EDT
[#46]
I believe the .0005 off location comment was sarcasm. I think.
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Posted: 12/8/2016 10:11:04 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wouldn't the engraving be considered a gunsmithing activity. If not, why would you need an FFL to do it? Also, to the guy that marks his sear pin holes a half a thousandths off, seriously?. 0005". That's more perfect than most rifles were ever made! The timing proceedurs adjust for way more error than that. This whole thing is solely here to make sure the 2A has lost its true meaning and that the citizenry is at a disadvantage to its masters. The opinions are created by incompetent lawyers knowingly committing treasonous acts. Common sense gun laws were written right from the beginning. It is called the 2A. Nothing further is needed. All other trash legislation that followed needs to be scrapped and it's supporters hung for treason. Someone missed the joke 
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Posted: 12/8/2016 12:20:53 PM EDT
[#48]
You don't need an FFL to engrave an 80% receiver. It is needed if the engraver is receiving a completed receiver.
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Posted: 12/8/2016 12:59:18 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fucking idiots You can toss daggers, I don't really care….. in every organization, you have your douche bags. I have met and worked a number of VERY pro firearm BATF agents. I have also interacted with a couple that were young and ignorant, but were "coming around." We forget that many Americans are very ignorant to firearms. If a young American who has the qualities to become a BATF agent, in general, they are exceptionally disciplined and have solid intellect (yes, again, there are douche bags out there). The firearms community can demonize this person and make an enemy, or be patient and work with the person to build a partner. I suggest "partner" because I do support that current laws (as stupid and redundant as they may be) are upheld. For every person who breaks these laws, it adds ammunition to those who wish to degrade our 2nd Amendment rights. The agents who enforce the laws do not make the laws. They do have discretion. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Cheers. |
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Posted: 12/8/2016 2:47:54 PM EDT
[#50]
You can toss daggers, I don't really care….. in every organization, you have your douche bags. I have met and worked a number of VERY pro firearm BATF agents. I have also interacted with a couple that were young and ignorant, but were "coming around." We forget that many Americans are very ignorant to firearms. If a young American who has the qualities to become a BATF agent, in general, they are exceptionally disciplined and have solid intellect (yes, again, there are douche bags out there). The firearms community can demonize this person and make an enemy, or be patient and work with the person to build a partner. I suggest "partner" because I do support that current laws (as stupid and redundant as they may be) are upheld. For every person who breaks these laws, it adds ammunition to those who wish to degrade our 2nd Amendment rights.
The agents who enforce the laws do not make the laws. They do have discretion. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Cheers ^^^^^This^^^^^ |
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