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Posted: 7/7/2016 8:41:14 AM EDT
[#1]
it is perfectly lawful for a non FFL to ship a Long gun to an FFL usually providing a picture of their ID.
it is up to the FFL to accept it or not. Many i feel do not as they are worried about something sent to them that is un-safe or illegal eta:spelling |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 8:48:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
it is perfectly lawful for a non FFL to ship a Long gun to an FFL usually providing a picture of their ID. it is up to the FFL to accept it or not. May i feel do not as they are worried about something sent to them that is un-safe or illegal this ^^^ Completely legal, but some dealers shy away from it for one of a number of reasons. I think the most common is that the non-FFL individual may not be up on all the laws and therefore may make shipping mistakes that put the FFL in jeopardy. IE, as he said, the individual must include photo ID so that the FFL can properly log the firearm into his/her logbook. Many individuals forget that part and it jeopardizes the FFL. |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 8:49:28 AM EDT
[#3]
It is completely legal to ship a firearm, handgun or long gun, to an FFL from a non FFL as long and you include your ID in the box, and you ship via legal methods (overnight UPS, etc.. for handguns).
It is also legal for you to ship your gun directly to the factory, or gunsmith, to do work on your firearm, and they would ship directly back to you. |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 8:58:45 AM EDT
[#4]
I know a local shop that doesn't like getting shipments from individuals because a few times now he's gotten a random gun that has a guys ID but no phone number or other info to tell him what the hell it is or who its for etc..
May be why some don't like dealing with it. |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 11:48:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know a local shop that doesn't like getting shipments from individuals because a few times now he's gotten a random gun that has a guys ID but no phone number or other info to tell him what the hell it is or who its for etc.. May be why some don't like dealing with it. If anything goes wrong with the deal it can be PITA to return the gun to a non-FFL. |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 2:13:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know a local shop that doesn't like getting shipments from individuals because a few times now he's gotten a random gun that has a guys ID but no phone number or other info to tell him what the hell it is or who its for etc.. May be why some don't like dealing with it. And if it was shipped by an FFL w/o info on who it was for, how would that be different? I think most do it to help their "brothers" (FFLs) by making the cost of business be 2x FFL charges instead of just 1 FFL charge. |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 2:31:20 PM EDT
[#7]
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If anything goes wrong with the deal it can be PITA to return the gun to a non-FFL. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I know a local shop that doesn't like getting shipments from individuals because a few times now he's gotten a random gun that has a guys ID but no phone number or other info to tell him what the hell it is or who its for etc.. May be why some don't like dealing with it. If anything goes wrong with the deal it can be PITA to return the gun to a non-FFL. Not really. Until my transfer fee + return shipping is paid and I have an FFL on the other end to receive the gun, it can sit and collect dust for all I care. The buyer and seller can work the details out on their own. |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 2:43:31 PM EDT
[#8]
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Not really. Until my transfer fee + return shipping is paid and I have an FFL on the other end to receive the gun, it can sit and collect dust for all I care. The buyer and seller can work the details out on their own. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know a local shop that doesn't like getting shipments from individuals because a few times now he's gotten a random gun that has a guys ID but no phone number or other info to tell him what the hell it is or who its for etc.. May be why some don't like dealing with it. If anything goes wrong with the deal it can be PITA to return the gun to a non-FFL. Not really. Until my transfer fee + return shipping is paid and I have an FFL on the other end to receive the gun, it can sit and collect dust for all I care. The buyer and seller can work the details out on their own. Ship the gun to an FFL. Have the buyer not be able to take delivery. Maybe he dies. Guess the FFL now has a paperweight. |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 2:59:26 PM EDT
[#9]
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Ship the gun to an FFL. Have the buyer not be able to take delivery. Maybe he dies. Guess the FFL now has a paperweight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know a local shop that doesn't like getting shipments from individuals because a few times now he's gotten a random gun that has a guys ID but no phone number or other info to tell him what the hell it is or who its for etc.. May be why some don't like dealing with it. If anything goes wrong with the deal it can be PITA to return the gun to a non-FFL. Not really. Until my transfer fee + return shipping is paid and I have an FFL on the other end to receive the gun, it can sit and collect dust for all I care. The buyer and seller can work the details out on their own. Ship the gun to an FFL. Have the buyer not be able to take delivery. Maybe he dies. Guess the FFL now has a paperweight. Whether or not the seller was a licensee isn't relevant in either case. If the buyer can't pass NICS he can consign the gun with us or appeal the denial. If he dies the estate can consign it or the representative can do the 4473. |
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Posted: 7/7/2016 7:21:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whether or not the seller was a licensee isn't relevant in either case. If the buyer can't pass NICS he can consign the gun with us or appeal the denial. If he dies the estate can consign it or the representative can do the 4473. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know a local shop that doesn't like getting shipments from individuals because a few times now he's gotten a random gun that has a guys ID but no phone number or other info to tell him what the hell it is or who its for etc.. May be why some don't like dealing with it. If anything goes wrong with the deal it can be PITA to return the gun to a non-FFL. Not really. Until my transfer fee + return shipping is paid and I have an FFL on the other end to receive the gun, it can sit and collect dust for all I care. The buyer and seller can work the details out on their own. Ship the gun to an FFL. Have the buyer not be able to take delivery. Maybe he dies. Guess the FFL now has a paperweight. Whether or not the seller was a licensee isn't relevant in either case. If the buyer can't pass NICS he can consign the gun with us or appeal the denial. If he dies the estate can consign it or the representative can do the 4473. It is at least a PITA to return the thing. It is going to have to go though an FFL to be returned. Simply sending it back is not a good idea. |
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Posted: 7/8/2016 11:17:11 PM EDT
[#11]
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It is completely legal to ship a firearm, handgun or long gun, to an FFL from a non FFL as long and you include your ID in the box, and you ship via legal methods (overnight UPS, etc.. for handguns). It is also legal for you to ship your gun directly to the factory, or gunsmith, to do work on your firearm, and they would ship directly back to you. Can you quote the law that states this? |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 10:43:59 AM EDT
[#12]
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Can you quote the law that states this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is completely legal to ship a firearm, handgun or long gun, to an FFL from a non FFL as long and you include your ID in the box, and you ship via legal methods (overnight UPS, etc.. for handguns). It is also legal for you to ship your gun directly to the factory, or gunsmith, to do work on your firearm, and they would ship directly back to you. Can you quote the law that states this? Along with 4473 forms FFL keep a 'bound book' that records every gun received and its disposition. The source of each received gun is required to be logged. Pretty tough to do without knowing who sent it. The BATFE loves to snag on paperwork errors. |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 10:51:14 AM EDT
[#13]
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Can you quote the law that states this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It is completely legal to ship a firearm, handgun or long gun, to an FFL from a non FFL as long and you include your ID in the box, and you ship via legal methods (overnight UPS, etc.. for handguns). It is also legal for you to ship your gun directly to the factory, or gunsmith, to do work on your firearm, and they would ship directly back to you. Can you quote the law that states this? There is no law that requires the sender/seller to provide an ID. That said, the FFL has an obligation to verify the identity of the seller. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request. As an aside, as a pawnbroker in Missouri, I am required to see a government issued photo ID when buying anything or pawning on anything. I treat incoming transfers as a buy and report them as part of my nightly police report so it's pretty much a given for me to require an ID. That's not an ATF thing, that's a state law thing. In the interest of "my shop/my rules" I won't complete the transfer of a firearm without an ID photocopy from the sender/seller. I have no guarantee that the ID sent is legit but at least I'm making an effort. |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 9:23:34 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Along with 4473 forms FFL keep a 'bound book' that records every gun received and its disposition. The source of each received gun is required to be logged. Pretty tough to do without knowing who sent it. The BATFE loves to snag on paperwork errors. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It is completely legal to ship a firearm, handgun or long gun, to an FFL from a non FFL as long and you include your ID in the box, and you ship via legal methods (overnight UPS, etc.. for handguns). It is also legal for you to ship your gun directly to the factory, or gunsmith, to do work on your firearm, and they would ship directly back to you. Can you quote the law that states this? Along with 4473 forms FFL keep a 'bound book' that records every gun received and its disposition. The source of each received gun is required to be logged. Pretty tough to do without knowing who sent it. The BATFE loves to snag on paperwork errors. Would not a note with the shippers full name and address fill that requirement. Yes. |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 9:31:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no law that requires the sender/seller to provide an ID. That said, the FFL has an obligation to verify the identity of the seller. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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It is completely legal to ship a firearm, handgun or long gun, to an FFL from a non FFL as long and you include your ID in the box, and you ship via legal methods (overnight UPS, etc.. for handguns). It is also legal for you to ship your gun directly to the factory, or gunsmith, to do work on your firearm, and they would ship directly back to you. Can you quote the law that states this? There is no law that requires the sender/seller to provide an ID. That said, the FFL has an obligation to verify the identity of the seller. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request. No ID of a seller can be verified over the mail. A 15 yo could send you a copy of his parents ID for example. Not that I know this from experience. The law requires name and address, that is all. |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 9:33:26 PM EDT
[#16]
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The BATFE loves to snag on paperwork errors. What error? Enter name/address in A book and you are done. |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 9:40:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no law that requires the sender/seller to provide an ID. That said, the FFL has an obligation to verify the identity of the seller. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request. As an aside, as a pawnbroker in Missouri, I am required to see a government issued photo ID when buying anything or pawning on anything. I treat incoming transfers as a buy and report them as part of my nightly police report so it's pretty much a given for me to require an ID. That's not an ATF thing, that's a state law thing. In the interest of "my shop/my rules" I won't complete the transfer of a firearm without an ID photocopy from the sender/seller. I have no guarantee that the ID sent is legit but at least I'm making an effort. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It is completely legal to ship a firearm, handgun or long gun, to an FFL from a non FFL as long and you include your ID in the box, and you ship via legal methods (overnight UPS, etc.. for handguns). It is also legal for you to ship your gun directly to the factory, or gunsmith, to do work on your firearm, and they would ship directly back to you. Can you quote the law that states this? There is no law that requires the sender/seller to provide an ID. That said, the FFL has an obligation to verify the identity of the seller. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request. As an aside, as a pawnbroker in Missouri, I am required to see a government issued photo ID when buying anything or pawning on anything. I treat incoming transfers as a buy and report them as part of my nightly police report so it's pretty much a given for me to require an ID. That's not an ATF thing, that's a state law thing. In the interest of "my shop/my rules" I won't complete the transfer of a firearm without an ID photocopy from the sender/seller. I have no guarantee that the ID sent is legit but at least I'm making an effort. The point I'm trying to make is that people believe that it is an ATF requirement that a government issued photo ID or an FFL must accompany a firearms shipment, which is just not true. As far as federal requirements, you're only obligated to log the shippers name and address or the FFL holders name and number (x-xx-xxxxx). You know as well as I do ATF only looks at that block to see if it's filled in with that info. If they're starting to research that information, you best lawyer up. |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 10:24:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The point I'm trying to make is that people believe that it is an ATF requirement that a government issued photo ID or an FFL must accompany a firearms shipment, which is just not true. As far as federal requirements, you're only obligated to log the shippers name and address or the FFL holders name and number (x-xx-xxxxx). You know as well as I do ATF only looks at that block to see if it's filled in with that info. If they're starting to research that information, you best lawyer up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It is completely legal to ship a firearm, handgun or long gun, to an FFL from a non FFL as long and you include your ID in the box, and you ship via legal methods (overnight UPS, etc.. for handguns). It is also legal for you to ship your gun directly to the factory, or gunsmith, to do work on your firearm, and they would ship directly back to you. Can you quote the law that states this? There is no law that requires the sender/seller to provide an ID. That said, the FFL has an obligation to verify the identity of the seller. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request. As an aside, as a pawnbroker in Missouri, I am required to see a government issued photo ID when buying anything or pawning on anything. I treat incoming transfers as a buy and report them as part of my nightly police report so it's pretty much a given for me to require an ID. That's not an ATF thing, that's a state law thing. In the interest of "my shop/my rules" I won't complete the transfer of a firearm without an ID photocopy from the sender/seller. I have no guarantee that the ID sent is legit but at least I'm making an effort. The point I'm trying to make is that people believe that it is an ATF requirement that a government issued photo ID or an FFL must accompany a firearms shipment, which is just not true. As far as federal requirements, you're only obligated to log the shippers name and address or the FFL holders name and number (x-xx-xxxxx). You know as well as I do ATF only looks at that block to see if it's filled in with that info. If they're starting to research that information, you best lawyer up. You're right. There is no ATF requirement for an ID. |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 10:48:09 PM EDT
[#19]
On the topic of requiring an ID or FFL. I'm curious as to what you do if the shipper refuses to provide a copy? Returning it to the shipper is not an option. Try and find another dealer local that'll complete the transaction?
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Posted: 7/9/2016 10:54:48 PM EDT
[#20]
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On the topic of requiring an ID or FFL. I'm curious as to what you do if the shipper refuses to provide a copy? Returning it to the shipper is not an option. Try and find another dealer local that'll complete the transaction? Inform the "customer" that you refuse to transfer the firearm he bought until the seller provides an ID. Ball is in the customer's court. Options are: 1, Seller provides ID 2.) Seller provides FFL for return shipment/customer pays for shipping and transfer 3.) Gun gathers dust until either 1 or 2 is satisfied |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 11:18:30 PM EDT
[#21]
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Inform the "customer" that you refuse to transfer the firearm he bought until the seller provides an ID. Ball is in the customer's court. Options are: 1, Seller provides ID 2.) Seller provides FFL for return shipment/customer pays for shipping and transfer 3.) Gun gathers dust until either 1 or 2 is satisfied Quote HistoryQuoted:
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On the topic of requiring an ID or FFL. I'm curious as to what you do if the shipper refuses to provide a copy? Returning it to the shipper is not an option. Try and find another dealer local that'll complete the transaction? Inform the "customer" that you refuse to transfer the firearm he bought until the seller provides an ID. Ball is in the customer's court. Options are: 1, Seller provides ID 2.) Seller provides FFL for return shipment/customer pays for shipping and transfer 3.) Gun gathers dust until either 1 or 2 is satisfied Some what if's... Shipper is an FFL and doesn't provide their license? Shipper basically says they're done have fun? You've signed for it and now it's your responsibility to store and safeguard it for an unknown amount of time? ATF comes in for a compliance inspection and starts to inquire about the gun in the corner that's not in your A&D book? |
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Posted: 7/9/2016 11:23:06 PM EDT
[#22]
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On the topic of requiring an ID or FFL. I'm curious as to what you do if the shipper refuses to provide a copy? Returning it to the shipper is not an option. Try and find another dealer local that'll complete the transaction? We have already established a copy is not legally required, so unless you made it clear it was required, there is not much you can do without being a dick. I do not require one, I require what the law says, name and address. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 8:23:13 AM EDT
[#23]
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Some what if's... Shipper is an FFL and doesn't provide their license? Shipper basically says they're done have fun? You've signed for it and now it's your responsibility to store and safeguard it for an unknown amount of time? ATF comes in for a compliance inspection and starts to inquire about the gun in the corner that's not in your A&D book? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
On the topic of requiring an ID or FFL. I'm curious as to what you do if the shipper refuses to provide a copy? Returning it to the shipper is not an option. Try and find another dealer local that'll complete the transaction? Inform the "customer" that you refuse to transfer the firearm he bought until the seller provides an ID. Ball is in the customer's court. Options are: 1, Seller provides ID 2.) Seller provides FFL for return shipment/customer pays for shipping and transfer 3.) Gun gathers dust until either 1 or 2 is satisfied Some what if's... Shipper is an FFL and doesn't provide their license? Shipper basically says they're done have fun? You've signed for it and now it's your responsibility to store and safeguard it for an unknown amount of time? ATF comes in for a compliance inspection and starts to inquire about the gun in the corner that's not in your A&D book? I've never had an FFL refuse to provide a license copy when asked. I have had some fail to send a copy with the gun but they've always come through eventually. Also, some FFL's don't send a license copy (Bud's Guns for example) but they do provide the necessary information. In any case, I would probably look their license up on the ATF website, confirm it on EZ-check and move on. Don't know what I'd do if one from an individual got stuck in limbo. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it . . . |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 9:36:44 AM EDT
[#24]
I've found this to be a bad policy. Requesting a copy of an ID is not totally unreasonable but demanding it and placing a firearm in limbo is just bad business all around. It places an unneeded burden on yourself, having to store and safeguard the item. It also punishes your customer for something that's most likely out of their control, and that's just not cool. I'm not telling you how to run your business, just giving an opinion. I just know if I had a firearm sitting at a shop for this reason a phone call would be made to my local ATF Field Office and possibly a trip over to the court house.
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Posted: 7/10/2016 9:49:54 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've found this to be a bad policy. Requesting a copy of an ID is not totally unreasonable but demanding it and placing a firearm in limbo is just bad business all around. It places an unneeded burden on yourself, having to store and safeguard the item. It also punishes your customer for something that's most likely out of their control, and that's just not cool. I'm not telling you how to run your business, just giving an opinion. I just know if I had a firearm sitting at a shop for this reason a phone call would be made to my local ATF Field Office and possibly a trip over to the court house. It's really not that complicated. The customer is asking me to perform a service for him. There are terms to my willingness to perform that service. Those terms are clearly stated on the license copy I send to the seller/shipper. If they don't want to abide by my terms, they're free to seek out another service provider. I'm a pawnbroker. That means that my business practices are subject to state regulations. While it could be argued that a gun transfer is a bit different than a pawn or a buy, the spirit of the law would suggest I follow the same standards. The law requires that I see a photo ID and record the information from that ID whenever anybody pawns or sells and item. My nightly police report includes not only name and address but also physical characteristics, date of birth, etc of the seller/pledger. . . basic ID stuff. All used gun acquisitions are included in that nightly police report. That includes transfers. I don't want to submit daily police reports that show a pattern of missing required information. Again, if a customers can't abide by my terms, they're free to do their transfers elsewhere. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 10:21:20 AM EDT
[#26]
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It's really not that complicated. The customer is asking me to perform a service for him. There are terms to my willingness to perform that service. Those terms are clearly stated on the license copy I send to the seller/shipper. If they don't want to abide by my terms, they're free to seek out another service provider. I'm a pawnbroker. That means that my business practices are subject to state regulations. While it could be argued that a gun transfer is a bit different than a pawn or a buy, the spirit of the law would suggest I follow the same standards. The law requires that I see a photo ID and record the information from that ID whenever anybody pawns or sells and item. My nightly police report includes not only name and address but also physical characteristics, date of birth, etc of the seller/pledger. . . basic ID stuff. All used gun acquisitions are included in that nightly police report. That includes transfers. I don't want to submit daily police reports that show a pattern of missing required information. Again, if a customers can't abide by my terms, they're free to do their transfers elsewhere. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've found this to be a bad policy. Requesting a copy of an ID is not totally unreasonable but demanding it and placing a firearm in limbo is just bad business all around. It places an unneeded burden on yourself, having to store and safeguard the item. It also punishes your customer for something that's most likely out of their control, and that's just not cool. I'm not telling you how to run your business, just giving an opinion. I just know if I had a firearm sitting at a shop for this reason a phone call would be made to my local ATF Field Office and possibly a trip over to the court house. It's really not that complicated. The customer is asking me to perform a service for him. There are terms to my willingness to perform that service. Those terms are clearly stated on the license copy I send to the seller/shipper. If they don't want to abide by my terms, they're free to seek out another service provider. I'm a pawnbroker. That means that my business practices are subject to state regulations. While it could be argued that a gun transfer is a bit different than a pawn or a buy, the spirit of the law would suggest I follow the same standards. The law requires that I see a photo ID and record the information from that ID whenever anybody pawns or sells and item. My nightly police report includes not only name and address but also physical characteristics, date of birth, etc of the seller/pledger. . . basic ID stuff. All used gun acquisitions are included in that nightly police report. That includes transfers. I don't want to submit daily police reports that show a pattern of missing required information. Again, if a customers can't abide by my terms, they're free to do their transfers elsewhere. THIS. I'm an FFL and I require a photo ID or a copy of the senders FFL. All these sovereign citizen type 'it's not required so you can't have my ID!!' asshats are free to send their transfers though anyone but me. I don't need the grief and I can guarantee the ATF will back me 100% if one of these dipshits wants to call them to complain about it. What people don't seem to understand is that we as FFLs are the ones on the hook if the paperwork isn't 100% correct and if we don't do everything we can to make sure the transaction is completely legal. I'm not going to risk much for a $27 transfer. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 10:46:16 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've found this to be a bad policy. Requesting a copy of an ID is not totally unreasonable but demanding it and placing a firearm in limbo is just bad business all around. It places an unneeded burden on yourself, having to store and safeguard the item. It also punishes your customer for something that's most likely out of their control, and that's just not cool. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've found this to be a bad policy. Requesting a copy of an ID is not totally unreasonable but demanding it and placing a firearm in limbo is just bad business all around. It places an unneeded burden on yourself, having to store and safeguard the item. It also punishes your customer for something that's most likely out of their control, and that's just not cool. My policies are stated on my web site. Customers are expected to read and understand them before having the gun shipped to me. I just know if I had a firearm sitting at a shop for this reason a phone call would be made to my local ATF Field Office... They will tell you that it's a civil issue, FFL's can absolutely refuse any transfer for any reason, and have a nice life. and possibly a trip over to the court house. I will be more than happy to explain federal firearm laws to a judge, lord knows it won't be the first time. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 11:43:19 AM EDT
[#28]
The dealer refusing to transfer, is a civil matter. The dealer refusing to enter the firearm, that is in their possession, into their A&D book is not a civil matter. If the buyer has explained your policies to the shipper and they disregard, it's not the buyers fault. You're just being a dick to your customer.
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Posted: 7/10/2016 12:38:13 PM EDT
[#29]
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The dealer refusing to transfer, is a civil matter. The dealer refusing to enter the firearm, that is in their possession, into their A&D book is not a civil matter. If the buyer has explained your policies to the shipper and they disregard, it's not the buyers fault. You're just being a dick to your customer. I'm not arguing with your position but I'm curious . . . are you an FFL? |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 12:51:32 PM EDT
[#30]
There's a distinct possibility I am.
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Posted: 7/10/2016 12:53:52 PM EDT
[#31]
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I'm an FFL and I require a photo ID or a copy of the senders FFL. All these sovereign citizen type 'it's not required so you can't have my ID!!' asshats are free to send their transfers though anyone but me. I don't need the grief and I can guarantee the ATF will back me 100% if one of these dipshits wants to call them to complain about it. No they will not back you for business decisions outside the scope of the CFR. They will take the neutral stand if they are following ATF procedures. I also guarantee they will go AGAINST you in the requirement a SENDING FFL provide a copy of their license. This is not required by law or CFR, and most major FFL MFG/Distributors do not provide it. You must not buy many firearms if you have not already encountered this fact. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 1:14:42 PM EDT
[#32]
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No they will not back you for business decisions outside the scope of the CFR. They will take the neutral stand. I also guarantee they will go AGAINST you in the requirement a SENDING FFL provide a copy of their license. This is not required by law or CFR, and most major FFL MFG/Distributors do not provide it. You must not buy many firearms if you have not already encountered this fact. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm an FFL and I require a photo ID or a copy of the senders FFL. All these sovereign citizen type 'it's not required so you can't have my ID!!' asshats are free to send their transfers though anyone but me. I don't need the grief and I can guarantee the ATF will back me 100% if one of these dipshits wants to call them to complain about it. No they will not back you for business decisions outside the scope of the CFR. They will take the neutral stand. I also guarantee they will go AGAINST you in the requirement a SENDING FFL provide a copy of their license. This is not required by law or CFR, and most major FFL MFG/Distributors do not provide it. You must not buy many firearms if you have not already encountered this fact. What I meant by back me is they won't be taking the side of some dipshit seller or buyer who believes I'm somehow obligated to do business the way they think I should as opposed to the way I choose to do it and thinking they can call ATF who will somehow force me to do the transfer. It ain't going to happen. As you said, they'll tell 'um to pound sand. Your statement about 'Most major FFL/Distributors' is complete BS. I've yet to have *any* FFL refuse to send me a copy of their license when I requested it. Hell, most of them throw it in the box. No, it's not a legal requirement but everyone I've dealt with has been perfectly happy to do that. I'm not sure what 'major' distributors won't but I've yet to deal with them. I've only dealt with 40 or 50 of them tho. I guess none of them are 'major' enough. 
Asking the obvious question here - Are you an FFL? |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 1:23:02 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What I meant by back me is they won't be taking the side of some dipshit seller or buyer who believes I'm somehow obligated to do business the way they think I should as opposed to the way I choose to do it and thinking they can call ATF who will somehow force me to do the transfer. It ain't going to happen. As you said, they'll tell 'um to pound sand. Your statement about 'Most major FFL/Distributors' is complete BS. I've yet to have *any* FFL refuse to send me a copy of their license when I requested it. Hell, most of them throw it in the box. No, it's not a legal requirement but everyone I've dealt with has been perfectly happy to do that. I'm not sure what 'major' distributors won't but I've yet to deal with them. I've only dealt with 40 or 50 of them. I guess none of them are 'major' enough.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm an FFL and I require a photo ID or a copy of the senders FFL. All these sovereign citizen type 'it's not required so you can't have my ID!!' asshats are free to send their transfers though anyone but me. I don't need the grief and I can guarantee the ATF will back me 100% if one of these dipshits wants to call them to complain about it. No they will not back you for business decisions outside the scope of the CFR. They will take the neutral stand. I also guarantee they will go AGAINST you in the requirement a SENDING FFL provide a copy of their license. This is not required by law or CFR, and most major FFL MFG/Distributors do not provide it. You must not buy many firearms if you have not already encountered this fact. What I meant by back me is they won't be taking the side of some dipshit seller or buyer who believes I'm somehow obligated to do business the way they think I should as opposed to the way I choose to do it and thinking they can call ATF who will somehow force me to do the transfer. It ain't going to happen. As you said, they'll tell 'um to pound sand. Your statement about 'Most major FFL/Distributors' is complete BS. I've yet to have *any* FFL refuse to send me a copy of their license when I requested it. Hell, most of them throw it in the box. No, it's not a legal requirement but everyone I've dealt with has been perfectly happy to do that. I'm not sure what 'major' distributors won't but I've yet to deal with them. I've only dealt with 40 or 50 of them. I guess none of them are 'major' enough.
My gut feeling on how ATF would handle it is this. Is it in your BB? Yes=civil, No=put it in there with the shippers name and address. Still saying no=we'll come get the damn thing and transfer it. I'd have to go back and look but I recall Zanders and RSR not providing their FFL. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 1:27:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My gut feeling on how ATF would handle it is this. Is it in your BB? Yes=civil, No=put it in there with the shippers name and address. Still saying no=we'll come get the damn thing and transfer it. I'd have to go back and look but I recall Zanders and RSR not providing their FFL. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm an FFL and I require a photo ID or a copy of the senders FFL. All these sovereign citizen type 'it's not required so you can't have my ID!!' asshats are free to send their transfers though anyone but me. I don't need the grief and I can guarantee the ATF will back me 100% if one of these dipshits wants to call them to complain about it. No they will not back you for business decisions outside the scope of the CFR. They will take the neutral stand. I also guarantee they will go AGAINST you in the requirement a SENDING FFL provide a copy of their license. This is not required by law or CFR, and most major FFL MFG/Distributors do not provide it. You must not buy many firearms if you have not already encountered this fact. What I meant by back me is they won't be taking the side of some dipshit seller or buyer who believes I'm somehow obligated to do business the way they think I should as opposed to the way I choose to do it and thinking they can call ATF who will somehow force me to do the transfer. It ain't going to happen. As you said, they'll tell 'um to pound sand. Your statement about 'Most major FFL/Distributors' is complete BS. I've yet to have *any* FFL refuse to send me a copy of their license when I requested it. Hell, most of them throw it in the box. No, it's not a legal requirement but everyone I've dealt with has been perfectly happy to do that. I'm not sure what 'major' distributors won't but I've yet to deal with them. I've only dealt with 40 or 50 of them. I guess none of them are 'major' enough.
My gut feeling on how ATF would handle it is this. Is it in your BB? Yes=civil, No=put it in there with the shippers name and address. Still saying no=we'll come get the damn thing and transfer it. I'd have to go back and look but I recall Zanders and RSR not providing their FFL. I have one from Zanders. I don't recall if they sent it with one of my orders or I had to request it. I've never gotten anything from RSR so I can't speak to that. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 1:30:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your statement about 'Most major FFL/Distributors' is complete BS. I'm not sure what 'major' distributors won't but I've yet to deal with them. If you have yet to deal with them, then how do you know it is BS 
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Posted: 7/10/2016 1:38:41 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you have yet to deal with them, then how do you know it is BS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Your statement about 'Most major FFL/Distributors' is complete BS. I'm not sure what 'major' distributors won't but I've yet to deal with them. If you have yet to deal with them, then how do you know it is BS I've yet to deal with any either major or minor that won't provide a copy of their FFL. Not a single one. So are you an FFL? If you are that's great, you and I might choose to do business differently. If not I couldn't care less what you think of my business practices. 
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Posted: 7/10/2016 1:41:01 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So are you an FFL? We have an FFL forum, maybe you should frequent it. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 1:46:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We have an FFL forum, maybe you should frequent it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So are you an FFL? We have an FFL forum, maybe you should frequent it. Great answer while ignoring my other points and thanks for the advice. I didn't know I was dealing with a celebrity. As I indicated in my edit above, you and I probably choose to do business differently. It's a relatively free country still so we're allowed. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 1:53:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: you and I might choose to do business differently. If not I couldn't care less what you think of my business practices.
I never commented on your business practices, I commented on ATF and other MFG/Distributor FFL business practices, in your anger you must be thinking of someone else. It is OK, it has been a tough week. |
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Posted: 7/10/2016 2:06:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never commented on your business practices, I commented on ATF and other MFG/Distributor FFL business practices, in your anger you must be thinking of someone else. It is OK, it has been a tough week. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: you and I might choose to do business differently. If not I couldn't care less what you think of my business practices.
I never commented on your business practices, I commented on ATF and other MFG/Distributor FFL business practices, in your anger you must be thinking of someone else. It is OK, it has been a tough week. Of course you didn't comment on my business practices. I volunteered that information to help you out. I guess being 1/2 right is good enough. Not such a tough week for me. But, I don't have any difficulty with the people I deal with. Maybe they're more flexible with me than with others. |
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Posted: 7/12/2016 8:49:33 AM EDT
[#41]
Directly from ATF...
"It depends if the receiving dealer took possession of the firearm or not. If an individual ships a firearm to a FFL, the FFL opens the box and removes the firearm then they have taken possession of it and a transfer has taken place. At this time it should be entered into the log book. Regarding the matter of returning it to the shipper, they may do so under extremely limited conditions, i.e. a gun smith transaction in some cases. Regards, David Howell Firearms Industry Programs Branch" |
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Posted: 7/12/2016 9:04:50 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Directly from ATF... "It depends if the receiving dealer took possession of the firearm or not. If an individual ships a firearm to a FFL, the FFL opens the box and removes the firearm then they have taken possession of it and a transfer has taken place. At this time it should be entered into the log book. Regarding the matter of returning it to the shipper, they may do so under extremely limited conditions, i.e. a gun smith transaction in some cases. Regards, David Howell Firearms Industry Programs Branch" FWIW, on the occasions when somebody has sent a gun without an ID, FFL copy or FFL number, I log the gun with provisional information from the shipping label. I then follow up with a polite request, either to the shipper (if we've been in communication) or to the buyer. In every case this has happened I have received the requested information within 24 hours. I then make any necessary changes and/or update my customer file with the information that I require for my police report. Typically this does not produce any change in the A&D record as long as the information provided matches the name/address on the shipping label. If that information does change, my electronic A&D records the change. Yes, the ID thing is above and beyond what ATF requires but as is often the case, state law and federal law results in different requirements. It could be argued that my state law does not absolutely require this information on a firearms transfer but I believe it is in the spirit of the pawnbrokers law. In any case, I want to see an ID for my own piece of mind. |
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