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Posted: 7/30/2015 2:43:54 PM EDT
I don't know if this has been asked before.

If you have a pistol lower that you built from a stripped lower and you swap the upper to rifle configuration, can you now shoulder the brace?
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 8:40:21 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I don't know if this has been asked before.

If you have a pistol lower that you built from a stripped lower and you change the upper to rifle configuration, can you now shoulder the brace?
View Quote


It is still a pistol. Why not just buy another lower with a stock installed to go with the rifle upper? This is one reason why I never liked the SIG Brace and the misuse of it. 99.9% of the guys who buy them do not use it as is intended. They merely want to have a SBR without the paperwork. Some other live in states where they cannot have SBRs, so they build a pseudo SBR and skirt around the legalities.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 8:40:58 AM EDT
[#2]
At that point you would have redesigned it into a stock and if the barrel is over 16" it would be a rifle. Goofy but that is how I see it. If the ATF said shouldering it didn't change the classification the. It would just be a pistol with a long barrel
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 8:48:15 AM EDT
[#3]
I have plenty of lowers to go with all my uppers. I was just curious since you can go pistol - rifle - pistol with the lower, that you could shoulder the brace if you swap the uppers.  I guess my thinking just makes it too easy or too much sense and that doesn't fit the ATF guidelines. I get it though, pistol with a long barrel, check.

ETA: I don't have a brace and do just fine cheek welding my pistols.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 8:49:05 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
At that point you would have redesigned it into a stock and if the barrel is over 16" it would be a rifle. Goofy but that is how I see it. If the ATF said shouldering it didn't change the classification the. It would just be a pistol with a long barrel
View Quote


ATF did change the classification if the brace was used as a stock. They said that as long as the brace was used as was intended (forearm brace), then it is still a brace. If it is used as a stock to shoulder-fire the weapon, then it becomes a stock. Of course, for someone to be charged for using a brace as a stock, they have to be caught doing it by an ATF agent. The way I look at it, the integrity of the individual comes into play. That means doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Shakespeare once wrote, "To thine own self be true".
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 9:50:27 AM EDT
[#5]
The ATF does NOT define the type weapon by how long the barrel is, to a degree. There is no definition of what make it a pistol or rifle by length - you could have a 24" upper on it, still a pistol. State laws might be more specific.

It's when you add another feature that things change.

Install a VFG on a "pistol" over 26" and its no longer a pistol, it's AOW - and now your state CCW laws may not be a shelter for it's carry and use. Not a pistol. VFG's are tricky politically and there's a real lack of concern over it.

Take that same "pistol" with 24" barrel and then shoulder it with some kind of brace on it, it would be considered a rifle. That ALSO changes how it's seen by local law - no longer being a handgun, having it loaded within reach could violate the law. The regulations often treat that as road hunting or poaching, much less just unsafe with kids in the car. Kids not being defined by age much, as they sometimes prove to be way over 21.

So, you have a brace equipped pistol lower with rifle upper? Don't worry about the ATF, they aren't going to stop you for speeding or get you into a roadside alcohol check lane. Worry about your local laws and what they think, officer discretion seeing some cobbled up tacticool assault weapon isn't going to be positive.

We may think AR's are Legos but the law thinks guns are defined very strictly by how they aren't something else. And enforcement has the attitude that those who can't color inside of the lines are problems. Real life beyond the internet isn't a free as we'd like it to be.

One thing presently for sure - you can put the short upper back on and it's a pistol again. Here's the catch - if the ATF saw you shoulder it, then swap uppers and pin it, they could construe you made it into a rifle, and then in the act of pinning on the short barrel, made it into an unstamped and illegal SBR - if the brace is still on it. That;s because once you shouldered the brace you made it a stock and there is no current interpretation that says it's no longer a stock, it's a brace. Once a stock, always a stock would be the worst case situation, and it's already precedent with lowers.

Purely speculation on my part but the ATF uses leaps of logic like that and actually publishes them as guidelines.

Me - pistols don't need no stinkin braces. Solves all the problems.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 10:02:21 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The ATF does NOT define the type weapon by how long the barrel is, to a degree. There is no definition of what make it a pistol or rifle by length - you could have a 24" upper on it, still a pistol. State laws might be more specific.

It's when you add another feature that things change.

Install a VFG on a "pistol" over 26" and its no longer a pistol, it's AOW - and now your state CCW laws may not be a shelter for it's carry and use. Not a pistol. VFG's are tricky politically and there's a real lack of concern over it.

Take that same "pistol" with 24" barrel and then shoulder it with some kind of brace on it, it would be considered a rifle. That ALSO changes how it's seen by local law - no longer being a handgun, having it loaded within reach could violate the law. The regulations often treat that as road hunting or poaching, much less just unsafe with kids in the car. Kids not being defined by age much, as they sometimes prove to be way over 21.

So, you have a brace equipped pistol lower with rifle upper? Don't worry about the ATF, they aren't going to stop you for speeding or get you into a roadside alcohol check lane. Worry about your local laws and what they think, officer discretion seeing some cobbled up tacticool assault weapon isn't going to be positive.

We may think AR's are Legos but the law thinks guns are defined very strictly by how they aren't something else. And enforcement has the attitude that those who can't color inside of the lines are problems. Real life beyond the internet isn't a free as we'd like it to be.

One thing presently for sure - you can put the short upper back on and it's a pistol again. Here's the catch - if the ATF saw you shoulder it, then swap uppers and pin it, they could construe you made it into a rifle, and then in the act of pinning on the short barrel, made it into an unstamped and illegal SBR - if the brace is still on it. That;s because once you shouldered the brace you made it a stock and there is no current interpretation that says it's no longer a stock, it's a brace. Once a stock, always a stock would be the worst case situation, and it's already precedent with lowers.

Purely speculation on my part but the ATF uses leaps of logic like that and actually publishes them as guidelines.

Me - pistols don't need no stinkin braces. Solves all the problems.
View Quote


I agree 100%.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 10:23:49 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The way I look at it, the integrity of the individual comes into play. That means doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Shakespeare once wrote, "To thine own self be true".
View Quote



So "the right thing" becomes adhering to the fickle whim of an ATF bureaucrat?  

All of my NFA items are stamped, but that's because, otherwise, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.  Its not because the ATF or firearms law is the basis of morality.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 10:34:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


ATF did change the classification if the brace was used as a stock. They said that as long as the brace was used as was intended (forearm brace), then it is still a brace. If it is used as a stock to shoulder-fire the weapon, then it becomes a stock. Of course, for someone to be charged for using a brace as a stock, they have to be caught doing it by an ATF agent. The way I look at it, the integrity of the individual comes into play. That means doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Shakespeare once wrote, "To thine own self be true".
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
At that point you would have redesigned it into a stock and if the barrel is over 16" it would be a rifle. Goofy but that is how I see it. If the ATF said shouldering it didn't change the classification the. It would just be a pistol with a long barrel


ATF did change the classification if the brace was used as a stock. They said that as long as the brace was used as was intended (forearm brace), then it is still a brace. If it is used as a stock to shoulder-fire the weapon, then it becomes a stock. Of course, for someone to be charged for using a brace as a stock, they have to be caught doing it by an ATF agent. The way I look at it, the integrity of the individual comes into play. That means doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Shakespeare once wrote, "To thine own self be true".


I'm sorry I couldn't pass this up?  Integrity of the individual?!  Integrity to do what, exactly, follow illegal, unconstitutional laws?  It's amazing how many gun owners are authoritarians that flip shit when another gun owner breaks an unconstitutional law made by traitorous scum.  

Doing the right thing. Ok. Yeah. What a joke. Since when is complying with illegal laws the right thing?  

I just moved from NY but I loved it when someone like you would try to get into someone's Elses business at the range when an uncompliant AR was brought out. People like you got taught a lesson by most everyone there real quick.

Sorry. I know this isn't technical but I can't get over attitudes like this. It's disgusting.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 10:41:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I'm sorry I couldn't pass this up?  Integrity of the individual?!  Integrity to do what, exactly, follow illegal, unconstitutional laws?  It's amazing how many gun owners are authoritarians that flip shit when another gun owner breaks an unconstitutional law made by traitorous scum.  

Doing the right thing. Ok. Yeah. What a joke. Since when is complying with illegal laws the right thing?  

I just moved from NY but I loved it when someone like you would try to get into someone's Elses business at the range when an uncompliant AR was brought out. People like you got taught a lesson by most everyone there real quick.

Sorry. I know this isn't technical but I can't get over attitudes like this. It's disgusting.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At that point you would have redesigned it into a stock and if the barrel is over 16" it would be a rifle. Goofy but that is how I see it. If the ATF said shouldering it didn't change the classification the. It would just be a pistol with a long barrel


ATF did change the classification if the brace was used as a stock. They said that as long as the brace was used as was intended (forearm brace), then it is still a brace. If it is used as a stock to shoulder-fire the weapon, then it becomes a stock. Of course, for someone to be charged for using a brace as a stock, they have to be caught doing it by an ATF agent. The way I look at it, the integrity of the individual comes into play. That means doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Shakespeare once wrote, "To thine own self be true".


I'm sorry I couldn't pass this up?  Integrity of the individual?!  Integrity to do what, exactly, follow illegal, unconstitutional laws?  It's amazing how many gun owners are authoritarians that flip shit when another gun owner breaks an unconstitutional law made by traitorous scum.  

Doing the right thing. Ok. Yeah. What a joke. Since when is complying with illegal laws the right thing?  

I just moved from NY but I loved it when someone like you would try to get into someone's Elses business at the range when an uncompliant AR was brought out. People like you got taught a lesson by most everyone there real quick.

Sorry. I know this isn't technical but I can't get over attitudes like this. It's disgusting.


I will say only this in response to this comment. Laws and regulations are to be followed whether we agree with them or not. Yes, we have many laws and regulations that are intrusive of our Constitutional rights, but until they are changed, they are to be followed. Personally, I wish the ATF would go away. They are useless on many fronts. Until that happens, they are still making the rules, like them or not.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 12:02:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I will say only this in response to this comment. Laws and regulations are to be followed whether we agree with them or not. Yes, we have many laws and regulations that are intrusive of our Constitutional rights, but until they are changed, they are to be followed. Personally, I wish the ATF would go away. They are useless on many fronts. Until that happens, they are still making the rules, like them or not.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At that point you would have redesigned it into a stock and if the barrel is over 16" it would be a rifle. Goofy but that is how I see it. If the ATF said shouldering it didn't change the classification the. It would just be a pistol with a long barrel


ATF did change the classification if the brace was used as a stock. They said that as long as the brace was used as was intended (forearm brace), then it is still a brace. If it is used as a stock to shoulder-fire the weapon, then it becomes a stock. Of course, for someone to be charged for using a brace as a stock, they have to be caught doing it by an ATF agent. The way I look at it, the integrity of the individual comes into play. That means doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Shakespeare once wrote, "To thine own self be true".


I'm sorry I couldn't pass this up?  Integrity of the individual?!  Integrity to do what, exactly, follow illegal, unconstitutional laws?  It's amazing how many gun owners are authoritarians that flip shit when another gun owner breaks an unconstitutional law made by traitorous scum.  

Doing the right thing. Ok. Yeah. What a joke. Since when is complying with illegal laws the right thing?  

I just moved from NY but I loved it when someone like you would try to get into someone's Elses business at the range when an uncompliant AR was brought out. People like you got taught a lesson by most everyone there real quick.

Sorry. I know this isn't technical but I can't get over attitudes like this. It's disgusting.


I will say only this in response to this comment. Laws and regulations are to be followed whether we agree with them or not. Yes, we have many laws and regulations that are intrusive of our Constitutional rights, but until they are changed, they are to be followed. Personally, I wish the ATF would go away. They are useless on many fronts. Until that happens, they are still making the rules, like them or not.


Bzzzzt. Wrong.  Any unconstitutional laws are illegal and therefore not law, logically. And I'm not going to get into this with you. I can already tell you are one of those I'm never wrong types. It's crazy that you think following laws and orders that are unjust and unconstitutional means having integrity. It means the exact opposite FYI.

But I'll part with this:  refresh our memories as to how the just following laws and orders bit worked out for The Nazi's put on trial.


Link Posted: 7/30/2015 12:37:54 PM EDT
[#11]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Thesandstonefiles
Bzzzzt. Wrong.  Any unconstitutional laws are illegal and therefore not law, logically. And I'm not going to get into this with you. I can already tell you are one of those I'm never wrong types. It's crazy that you think following laws and orders that are unjust and unconstitutional means having integrity. It means the exact opposite FYI.
View Quote


So....you should sling up a 10.5" barreled AR with a 6-position stock (non-NFA stamped, of course) and go stand at the front door of the ATF offices.










 




 
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 12:43:19 PM EDT
[#12]
I'm with you SandStone.

Link Posted: 7/30/2015 12:45:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So....you should sling up a 10.5" barreled AR with a 6-position stock (non-NFA stamped, of course) and go stand at the front door of the ATF offices.



 


 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Originally Posted By Thesandstonefiles


Bzzzzt. Wrong.  Any unconstitutional laws are illegal and therefore not law, logically. And I'm not going to get into this with you. I can already tell you are one of those I'm never wrong types. It's crazy that you think following laws and orders that are unjust and unconstitutional means having integrity. It means the exact opposite FYI.




So....you should sling up a 10.5" barreled AR with a 6-position stock (non-NFA stamped, of course) and go stand at the front door of the ATF offices.



 


 


Umm, why do that?

Link Posted: 7/30/2015 12:45:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Based on the precedent set by MechTech and there glock carbine conversions, I would say yes, with a 16" upper and an OAL over 26" you can shoulder it, then take that upper off and go back to the pistol upper and not shoulder it.

Those who don't know mechtech is a rifle upper with stock for your glock frame. ATF ruled (letter on their site) that you can take your glock, put the frame on the rifle upper, shoot it, and return it to its pistol form when done.

The difference of course is when your not using the mechtech the stock is gone with the upper, doesn't solve "once a stock always a stock, aka constructive possession" card the ATF could play, but that would speculation. Interesting gray area.

Disclaimer, I AM NOT A LAWYER, far, faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from it.

Link Posted: 7/30/2015 12:50:18 PM EDT
[#15]
Why stand in front of an organization that unconstitutionally restricts me?

So they can be given the chance to prove me right and oppress me some more?

You went to potato.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 1:53:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The ATF does NOT define the type weapon by how long the barrel is, to a degree. There is no definition of what make it a pistol or rifle by length - you could have a 24" upper on it, still a pistol. State laws might be more specific.

It's when you add another feature that things change.

Install a VFG on a "pistol" over 26" and its no longer a pistol, it's AOW - and now your state CCW laws may not be a shelter for it's carry and use. Not a pistol. VFG's are tricky politically and there's a real lack of concern over it.

Take that same "pistol" with 24" barrel and then shoulder it with some kind of brace on it, it would be considered a rifle. That ALSO changes how it's seen by local law - no longer being a handgun, having it loaded within reach could violate the law. The regulations often treat that as road hunting or poaching, much less just unsafe with kids in the car. Kids not being defined by age much, as they sometimes prove to be way over 21.

So, you have a brace equipped pistol lower with rifle upper? Don't worry about the ATF, they aren't going to stop you for speeding or get you into a roadside alcohol check lane. Worry about your local laws and what they think, officer discretion seeing some cobbled up tacticool assault weapon isn't going to be positive.

We may think AR's are Legos but the law thinks guns are defined very strictly by how they aren't something else. And enforcement has the attitude that those who can't color inside of the lines are problems. Real life beyond the internet isn't a free as we'd like it to be.

One thing presently for sure - you can put the short upper back on and it's a pistol again. Here's the catch - if the ATF saw you shoulder it, then swap uppers and pin it, they could construe you made it into a rifle, and then in the act of pinning on the short barrel, made it into an unstamped and illegal SBR - if the brace is still on it. That;s because once you shouldered the brace you made it a stock and there is no current interpretation that says it's no longer a stock, it's a brace. Once a stock, always a stock would be the worst case situation, and it's already precedent with lowers.

Purely speculation on my part but the ATF uses leaps of logic like that and actually publishes them as guidelines.

Me - pistols don't need no stinkin braces. Solves all the problems.
View Quote


False. If the OAL is <26'' it is no longer a pistol or handgun but a firearm

you CAN install VFG's on firearms with OAL of 26'' or more.

and again your last point is also wrong. You are mixing definitions. There is no such thing as "once a stock always a stock". You are thinking about "once a rifle always a rifle" which is even confusing because you can go from pistol> rifle> back to pistol but you cannot make a pistol out of a gun that started as a rifle.


you REALLY shouldnt give legal advice when you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about. SOOO much derp and fail in one post.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 2:14:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:  False. If the OAL is <26'' it is no longer a pistol or handgun but a firearm

you CAN install VFG's on firearms with OAL of 26'' or more.

and again your last point is also wrong. You are mixing definitions. There is no such thing as "once a stock always a stock". You are thinking about "once a rifle always a rifle" which is even confusing because you can go from pistol> rifle> back to pistol but you cannot make a pistol out of a gun that started as a rifle.

you REALLY shouldnt give legal advice when you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about. SOOO much derp and fail in one post.
View Quote


Uh - if the OAL is longer than 26", and does not have a VFG or a stock, federally it's still a pistol.

Once a rifle always a rifle has been stomped flat since Thomson vs US.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 2:16:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Shoulder it anyway.
That "opinion letter" is bullshit and contradicts decades of long standing precedence.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 2:22:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Uh - if the OAL is longer than 26", and does not have a VFG or a stock, federally it's still a pistol.


Once a rifle always a rifle has been stomped flat since Thomson vs US.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:  False. If the OAL is <26'' it is no longer a pistol or handgun but a firearm

you CAN install VFG's on firearms with OAL of 26'' or more.

and again your last point is also wrong. You are mixing definitions. There is no such thing as "once a stock always a stock". You are thinking about "once a rifle always a rifle" which is even confusing because you can go from pistol> rifle> back to pistol but you cannot make a pistol out of a gun that started as a rifle.

you REALLY shouldnt give legal advice when you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about. SOOO much derp and fail in one post.


Uh - if the OAL is longer than 26", and does not have a VFG or a stock, federally it's still a pistol.


Once a rifle always a rifle has been stomped flat since Thomson vs US.



Thats not what I nor he said. He claimed if you put a VFG on a "pistol" with a 26'' or great OAL it becomes an AOW. which is incorrect it becomes a "firearm"
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 2:31:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I will say only this in response to this comment. Laws and regulations are to be followed whether we agree with them or not. Yes, we have many laws and regulations that are intrusive of our Constitutional rights, but until they are changed, they are to be followed. Personally, I wish the ATF would go away. They are useless on many fronts. Until that happens, they are still making the rules, like them or not.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At that point you would have redesigned it into a stock and if the barrel is over 16" it would be a rifle. Goofy but that is how I see it. If the ATF said shouldering it didn't change the classification the. It would just be a pistol with a long barrel


ATF did change the classification if the brace was used as a stock. They said that as long as the brace was used as was intended (forearm brace), then it is still a brace. If it is used as a stock to shoulder-fire the weapon, then it becomes a stock. Of course, for someone to be charged for using a brace as a stock, they have to be caught doing it by an ATF agent. The way I look at it, the integrity of the individual comes into play. That means doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Shakespeare once wrote, "To thine own self be true".


I'm sorry I couldn't pass this up?  Integrity of the individual?!  Integrity to do what, exactly, follow illegal, unconstitutional laws?  It's amazing how many gun owners are authoritarians that flip shit when another gun owner breaks an unconstitutional law made by traitorous scum.  

Doing the right thing. Ok. Yeah. What a joke. Since when is complying with illegal laws the right thing?  

I just moved from NY but I loved it when someone like you would try to get into someone's Elses business at the range when an uncompliant AR was brought out. People like you got taught a lesson by most everyone there real quick.

Sorry. I know this isn't technical but I can't get over attitudes like this. It's disgusting.


I will say only this in response to this comment. Laws and regulations are to be followed whether we agree with them or not. Yes, we have many laws and regulations that are intrusive of our Constitutional rights, but until they are changed, they are to be followed. Personally, I wish the ATF would go away. They are useless on many fronts. Until that happens, they are still making the rules, like them or not.

I haven't stayed 100 percent up to date on the subject, but last i checked this "shouldering a brace" thing was an ATF opinion letter of one individual, with an opinion letter from a different individual from the ATF before it, stating the exact opposite. Has this been found to be law since then, or is it still just an opinion letter?
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 3:56:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I will say only this in response to this comment. Laws and regulations are to be followed whether we agree with them or not. Yes, we have many laws and regulations that are intrusive of our Constitutional rights, but until they are changed, they are to be followed. Personally, I wish the ATF would go away. They are useless on many fronts. Until that happens, they are still making the rules, like them or not.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At that point you would have redesigned it into a stock and if the barrel is over 16" it would be a rifle. Goofy but that is how I see it. If the ATF said shouldering it didn't change the classification the. It would just be a pistol with a long barrel


ATF did change the classification if the brace was used as a stock. They said that as long as the brace was used as was intended (forearm brace), then it is still a brace. If it is used as a stock to shoulder-fire the weapon, then it becomes a stock. Of course, for someone to be charged for using a brace as a stock, they have to be caught doing it by an ATF agent. The way I look at it, the integrity of the individual comes into play. That means doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Shakespeare once wrote, "To thine own self be true".


I'm sorry I couldn't pass this up?  Integrity of the individual?!  Integrity to do what, exactly, follow illegal, unconstitutional laws?  It's amazing how many gun owners are authoritarians that flip shit when another gun owner breaks an unconstitutional law made by traitorous scum.  

Doing the right thing. Ok. Yeah. What a joke. Since when is complying with illegal laws the right thing?  

I just moved from NY but I loved it when someone like you would try to get into someone's Elses business at the range when an uncompliant AR was brought out. People like you got taught a lesson by most everyone there real quick.

Sorry. I know this isn't technical but I can't get over attitudes like this. It's disgusting.


I will say only this in response to this comment. Laws and regulations are to be followed whether we agree with them or not. Yes, we have many laws and regulations that are intrusive of our Constitutional rights, but until they are changed, they are to be followed. Personally, I wish the ATF would go away. They are useless on many fronts. Until that happens, they are still making the rules, like them or not.


I don't see how anyone has a responsibility to obey an unjust law.   I think Heinlein had a good theory on the law

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me.
If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them;
if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am
morally responsible for everything I do."
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 4:01:39 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I don't see how anyone has a responsibility to obey an unjust law.   I think Heinlein had a good theory on the law

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me.
If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them;
if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am
morally responsible for everything I do."
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At that point you would have redesigned it into a stock and if the barrel is over 16" it would be a rifle. Goofy but that is how I see it. If the ATF said shouldering it didn't change the classification the. It would just be a pistol with a long barrel


ATF did change the classification if the brace was used as a stock. They said that as long as the brace was used as was intended (forearm brace), then it is still a brace. If it is used as a stock to shoulder-fire the weapon, then it becomes a stock. Of course, for someone to be charged for using a brace as a stock, they have to be caught doing it by an ATF agent. The way I look at it, the integrity of the individual comes into play. That means doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. Shakespeare once wrote, "To thine own self be true".


I'm sorry I couldn't pass this up?  Integrity of the individual?!  Integrity to do what, exactly, follow illegal, unconstitutional laws?  It's amazing how many gun owners are authoritarians that flip shit when another gun owner breaks an unconstitutional law made by traitorous scum.  

Doing the right thing. Ok. Yeah. What a joke. Since when is complying with illegal laws the right thing?  

I just moved from NY but I loved it when someone like you would try to get into someone's Elses business at the range when an uncompliant AR was brought out. People like you got taught a lesson by most everyone there real quick.

Sorry. I know this isn't technical but I can't get over attitudes like this. It's disgusting.


I will say only this in response to this comment. Laws and regulations are to be followed whether we agree with them or not. Yes, we have many laws and regulations that are intrusive of our Constitutional rights, but until they are changed, they are to be followed. Personally, I wish the ATF would go away. They are useless on many fronts. Until that happens, they are still making the rules, like them or not.


I don't see how anyone has a responsibility to obey an unjust law.   I think Heinlein had a good theory on the law

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me.
If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them;
if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am
morally responsible for everything I do."

Although a feel good post and I agree with the words, subjective views will not keep you or me out of prison.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 4:10:27 PM EDT
[#23]
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Although a feel good post and I agree with the words, subjective views will not keep you or me out of prison.
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[
I don't see how anyone has a responsibility to obey an unjust law.   I think Heinlein had a good theory on the law

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me.
If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them;
if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am
morally responsible for everything I do."

Although a feel good post and I agree with the words, subjective views will not keep you or me out of prison.


 That's part of the whole "tolerable" part.   How bad is the law, and what is the penalty if you get caught breaking it?  Most people speed, at least to a degree.   I see lots of smokers around here smoking in areas which while technically illegal are accepted.    People ignore laws they think are stupid, or which have penalties which are perceived as lower than the benefit they get from breaking them.  

I should also point out that was posted in response to "Laws and regulations are to be followed whether we agree with them or not."  We have no responsibility to obey a bad law, but we should be aware of the consequences if we choose to ignore it.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 4:56:00 PM EDT
[#24]

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Umm, why do that?



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Originally Posted By Thesandstonefiles





Bzzzzt. Wrong.  Any unconstitutional laws are illegal and therefore not law, logically. And I'm not going to get into this with you. I can already tell you are one of those I'm never wrong types. It's crazy that you think following laws and orders that are unjust and unconstitutional means having integrity. It means the exact opposite FYI.
So....you should sling up a 10.5" barreled AR with a 6-position stock (non-NFA stamped, of course) and go stand at the front door of the ATF offices.
 





 




Umm, why do that?




Well, I was using the premise that any unconstitutional laws are illegal and therefore not law.   Hey.....I wasn't the one that said that.  I have always had good luck in life obeying laws regardless of how fuc*ed up I think some are.


And.....the comment was tongue-in-cheek (note the wink emoticon) although attempts at humor are seriously frowned upon here.






 

Link Posted: 7/30/2015 6:48:42 PM EDT
[#25]
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It is still a pistol. Why not just buy another lower with a stock installed to go with the rifle upper? This is one reason why I never liked the SIG Brace and the misuse of it. 99.9% of the guys who buy them do not use it as is intended. They merely want to have a SBR without the paperwork. Some other live in states where they cannot have SBRs, so they build a pseudo SBR and skirt around the legalities.
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I don't know if this has been asked before.

If you have a pistol lower that you built from a stripped lower and you change the upper to rifle configuration, can you now shoulder the brace?


It is still a pistol. Why not just buy another lower with a stock installed to go with the rifle upper? This is one reason why I never liked the SIG Brace and the misuse of it. 99.9% of the guys who buy them do not use it as is intended. They merely want to have a SBR without the paperwork. Some other live in states where they cannot have SBRs, so they build a pseudo SBR and skirt around the legalities.

This is the only reason liked the Sig Brace. I even have an SBR lower with a Sig Brace on it .. haven't bothered to buy a stock for it yet.
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