Originally Posted By sherm8404: Really it should be locktacked (Sure it's a word) with a succint last definitive restatement of the facts. Make it stop.

Yes, PLEASE!!!

Originally Posted By MikeWilliamson: Originally Posted By sherm8404: Really it should be locktacked (Sure it's a word) with a succint last definitive restatement of the facts. Make it stop. Yes, PLEASE!!!

NO! Let's keep it going for another 5-1/2 years.

Has the original post been addressed - definitively?  

Originally Posted By sherm8404: Originally Posted By mogunr1: Has the original post been addressed - definitively?   Repeatedly.

So is it illegal?   I kid, I kid.  

Originally Posted By mogunr1: Has the original post been addressed - definitively?

Did you bother to read the thread and see if the answer was given?

I bet not.

Originally Posted By mogunr1: Has the original post been addressed - definitively?

Yes, it has definitively infinitively been addressed.

The answer is if you are afraid that M16 Bolt Carriers are illegal, you should not worry, but you should immediately send them all to me for proper disposal.

Don't delay. I will even pay postage. Just think of the relief of not having a scary M16 part in your rifle!

Originally Posted By Hydguy: Originally Posted By mogunr1: Has the original post been addressed - definitively?   Did you bother to read the thread and see if the answer was given? I bet not.

I knew the answer without reading the thread - did you?

I bet not!

Originally Posted By _DR: The answer is if you are afraid that M16 Bolt Carriers are illegal, you should not worry, but you should immediately send them all to me for proper disposal. Don't delay. I will even pay postage. Just think of the relief of not having a scary M16 part in your rifle!

I will accept receipt of ANY M16 or AR15 parts someone doesn't want, and can advise on how to properly dispose of an illegal LL for only $5

Originally Posted By _DR: The answer is if you are afraid that M16 Bolt Carriers are illegal, you should not worry, but you should immediately send them all to me for proper disposal. Don't delay. I will even pay postage. Just think of the relief of not having a scary M16 part in your rifle!

OH MY GOD!!! DON'T DO IT!!!
The USPS gets a bad enough rap without one of these FA parts "goin postal" while sitting wrapped in a box. Then the carrier, hammer, trigger, etc. will search out the nearest school, mall, or playground and cause all manner or carnage. These individual parts are much too dangerous to leave unattended for even a millisecond.

Originally Posted By mogunr1: Originally Posted By Hydguy: Originally Posted By mogunr1: Has the original post been addressed - definitively?   Did you bother to read the thread and see if the answer was given? I bet not. I knew the answer without reading the thread - did you? I bet not!

Sure Mr. Internet tough guy

height=8

Hunduh Member Just when you thought it was gone...... flyer8493 revives it

I couldn't resist.  

Originally Posted By shrikefan: Originally Posted By _DR: The answer is if you are afraid that M16 Bolt Carriers are illegal, you should not worry, but you should immediately send them all to me for proper disposal. Don't delay. I will even pay postage. Just think of the relief of not having a scary M16 part in your rifle! OH MY GOD!!! DON'T DO IT!!! The USPS gets a bad enough rap without one of these FA parts "goin postal" while sitting wrapped in a box. Then the carrier, hammer, trigger, etc. will search out the nearest school, mall, or playground and cause all manner or carnage. These individual parts are much too dangerous to leave unattended for even a millisecond.

Oh, the humanity of it all....

Does anybody know if David Olofson's AR15 had a full auto carrier in it?

His case is the only one I am aware of that a malfunction led to a 30 month prison sentence.

. . . Mr. Olofson had lent an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle to a person who was interested in joining the National Guard. While firing the rifle at a public gun range -- he had previously fired some 800 rounds through the rifle without any problems -- the gun malfunctioned, fired two rounds and then jammed. Law enforcement officers at the range questioned the man, referred the case to ATF, and ATF charged Mr. Olofson with the illegal transfer of a machine gun; the Assistant United States Attorney argued that a "malfunction" was no defense . . . . . . when ATF tested the AR-15, ATF reported that the AR-15 was not a machine gun [that is it passed the test and did not fire automatically!]; however, the ATF Special Agent in charge of the case requested that ATF re-test the AR-15 using ammunition with more sensitive primers, and after the AR-15 fired multiple rounds and jammed, ATF took the position that the AR-15 was a machine gun. . . . Mr. Olofson was convicted by a jury

LINK TO VIDEO

Originally Posted By Dano523: Ok boys and girls, it's story time. A while back, guys were using M-16 parts, minus the auto sear in there SP-1's.  By using soft pistol primers, the rifles would fire semi and full auto using "hammer follow threw". Since, at the time, the rules stated that the the "auto-sear" was the illegal part only, then BATF a hard time on conviction. Since then, they changed the ruling to included all the M-16 fire control parts, being the carrier the most important part, since a AR-15 hammer will not bind on the firing pin, and the hood allowing just enough pressure to set off the soft pistol primers on follow-threw. Will the BATF bust your ass for having just the M-16 carrier in the rifle, can you say "Intent to create a machine gun". Mods, please edit this if needed, but to make the point, I needed to give the full story. Dano

This quote is from 2002 on page 2 of this thread.



It seams to me, if Olofson DID have a full auto carrier, he is regretting that upgrade now!

Copy of letter from BATF to Colt on using an M16 bolt carrier in an AR15

So my question is this.  If you use a semi auto carrier but it has the shrouded firing pin, functionally is it any different than the full auto carrier in a semi auto AR with all other semi-auto parts?  

The difference between the two is at the rear of the carrier where the lower potion extends to a spec at which is trip the auto sear.  Remove as little a several thousandths from that portion of the carrier and it mechanically not possible to trip the auto sear, which by definition I would think would make it a semi-auto carrier, since even with all full auto parts installed on a proper machine gun a carrier modified like that would not enable full auto fire.

Everyone makes carriers that cover or shroud the firing pin, except Colt.  It is my understanding that the shroud or the covering of the firing pin would make it possible for a hammer follow to fire a semi-auto.  The notched hammer is supposed to catch the firing pin prevent this, but since the firing pin is covered that notch does nothing.  So in effect, any carrier that will allow that malfunction to occur is according to the ATF now a criminal offense if any such malfunction happens.







This view shows the lugs on the under sides of 3 different carriers.  On the left is a full-auto carrier.  It's under side lug is of equal length as the top side lug.  The forward edge (bottom of the photo) is the portion that trips the auto sear of a fully automatic M16.  Without this specific length of under side lug along with the timing and cooperation of other full-auto fire control components the M16 will not be capable of firing full-auto.

Timing is ultra critical with regard to full-auto fire of any machine gun.  Without the critical location of the forward edge of the under side lug on the bolt carrier assembly (1/8" is enough to create the necessary timing difference) to prevent full-auto fire and function as a machine gun.

The length of this under side lug is the only critical dimension or feature that determines whether or not a bolt carrier is considered full-auto.

Although a fully covered firing pin area on the bottom of a bolt carrier assembly is a full-auto feature it has no bearing to whether a carrier is a full-auto model or not.  On a technical note the mil-spec variance for a full-auto carrier's under side lug is only +/- .0005" and anything more does not qualify as a mil-spec full-auto carrier.

Pictures and italics text from Olympic Arms web site

If the case against Olofson stands, then any malfunction of a semi auto which cause a double with one trigger pull is a machine gun and you can go to jail.  It does not matter intent or which parts.  If the gun doubles because of hammer follow you can be prosecuted and evidently convicted.

If you take the disconnector out of an AR15 and you have a RRA bolt(semi auto) in it, will the gun fire from hammer follow?  If you take the disconnector out of a semi auto that has only a FA carrier but no other M16 parts, will the gun fire from hammer follow?  If the answer to both those is yes, then it doesn't really matter because the outcome is the same under this new case.  If you have a Colt AR15 bolt carrier with no shroud and replace a worn Colt hammer with a DPMS semi-auto hammer(these are rounded face with no notch but semi-auto because no tail) will the gun fire from hammer follow if the disconnector is removed?  If the answer is yes, then under the outcome of the Olofson case, you would have a machine gun with all semi auto parts.

I ask about the disconnector being removed because that is the easiest way for them(ATF) to make the gun fire full auto.  Never mind the fact it could blow up in their hands.  That and soft pistol primers.  Apparently, they can do whatever they need to do to make sure your gun doubles.    

I may be wrong, but any of the carriers above can allow a hammer follow with the correct combination of semi-auto parts.  In the case of the unshrouded Colt bolt a semi auto DPMS hammer with no notch could allow a hammer follow malfunction.  The rest could with either the notched face hammer or the DPMS style hammer.  

edit:

yes, you are correct that by removing certain parts, the gun will have hammer follow.

And the technical definition of a MG, since it doesn't allow for malfunctions, places every user of a semi auto firearm at risk, But it has been that way since this definition was first used.

I understand, I just want to make sure I was understanding how the parts worked.  And also, there is now a case unless it is overturned on appeal.  And that may happen, because their is a Supreme Court case called Staples that deals with the issue apparently but the judge in Olofson didn't allow it in because it dealt with possession and he said this case was about transferring a MG, not possession.  Strange........

Their needs to be a testing standard which says if the gun is malfunctioning it isn't a MG and it should be repaired or destroyed if it can't be repaired.  But nobody should go to jail over this.

You can put anything and/or everything you can imagine (except a full auto sear assembly) in there so long as:

It only does 1 bang per single pull of the trigger.

And the lower receiver has not been modified. (milled and/or drilled to accept an auto sear assembly)


Case Closed - Happy Hunting...
FlDiveCop71

Originally Posted By FlDiveCop71: You can put anything and/or everything you can imagine (except a full auto sear assembly) in there so long as: It only does 1 bang per single function of the trigger. And the lower receiver has not been modified. (milled and/or drilled to accept an auto sear assembly) Case Closed - Happy Hunting... FlDiveCop71

Fixed it.

Originally Posted By shrikefan: Fixed it.

From "Lord of War":
Yes...But I prefer it my way.

FlDiveCop71

i love that letter....why can't they just be flat out clear about it.

there is no way unless its tampered with, a carrier is going to make anything FA.

Originally Posted By BSOG1: i love that letter....why can't they just be flat out clear about it. there is no way unless its tampered with, a carrier is going to make anything FA.

We are talking about the Feds here not Martha Stewart.  They probably wont give an exact ruling because they either don't want to which leaves us owners in a state of mind that its okay or it isnt ok and they like it that way make the rules up as they go along and imprison as many folks as possible because they can modify a lower to make it FA, its ambigous language that they use and for a reason I don't know.   I'm sure I could an M16 bolt carrier unmodified in any of my uppers and it would fire only 1 shot per trigger pull.  I could even drill a hole thru the carrier and pin in a heavy weight cyclic ROF reducer, then it would almost never malfunction to fire morethan 1 shot at time.  

Any part for an M16 is not legal to put into an AR. The ATF rules that NO m16 parts may be used in an AR15. You are not even to own any M16 parts unless you are a Manufacturer like myself or have a registered rifle.

Originally Posted By BCWMFG: Any part for an M16 is not legal to put into an AR. The ATF rules that NO m16 parts may be used in an AR15. You are not even to own any M16 parts unless you are a Manufacturer like myself or have a registered rifle.

If memory serves me correctly, the AR parts were first used in the M16.

Didn't Armalite (Fairchild) design the AR series rifle and then the military adopted it and gave it the M16 designation?

Someone please confirm or correct. Thanks.

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Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA: BCWMFG, If you are going to post lies, I suggest you not post in this forum or this thread again. I suspect you are not a manufacturer nor that you own a "registered rifle" given your obvious lack of knowledge and inability to read this tacked thread in its entirety.

I'm just glad that some people have sense!  Steve has been spot on, on every one of his posts.  BCWMFG please read before you just push the keys, and spout off complete BS.  There are tons of people new to not only AR-15.com, but guns in general, and they need good accurate advice because it is a big deal and should be treated as one.  

Example I'm a huge H&K guy, and own many H&Ks.  Well the funny thing is up until a few years ago all H&K lowers/trigger packs were "MG style".  What I mean is the S/F trigger pack was the same as the S/A/B trigger pack.  So that made for different rules regarding H&Ks specifically.  For example If someone were to own an old H&K 91 (G3), and it is S/F, and only functions in that manner.  But on the lower it has S/F/A, only it is a pictogram.  However even though it has a "MG LOWER/TRIGGER PACK" there is a pin welded between F/A that prevents auto from being selected, and that’s how it came from H&K, the only other difference is the front of SA receivers had to have the dog ears cut off to show the difference, but that was purely cosmetic.  That gun is perfectly legal for anyone to own, and is not a BATF item.  Now to wrap this up H&K was different because they made both their semi and auto lowers the same, since then that has changed, but there is specific information in the ATF legislation about old style H&K lowers and trigger packs.  These days H&K refers to its FA lowers and trigger packs as FBI style, and there are differences between their FA and SA parts.  IF ANYONE HAS ANY MORE? S REGUARDING THIS MATTER SPECIFICLLY REFER TO HKPRO.COM THAT WAS MY SOURCE< AND THEY HAVE ALL OF THE ATF REGS. POSTED.

My long winded point was that all miss information does is hurt the gun owning population as a whole.  Because knowing if that rifle was legal was of great importance to me, and I got yes, and no answers to my question.  However I did the research, and found out that what I had was completely legal, but because of all of the BS responses it took me twice as long.

Having an M16 BCG in an AR-15 with no other modifications in no way constitutes a MG!  That is the truth in black and white!  I know people who have such BCGs in their AR-15s, and there is absolutely no way in hell that the M16 BCG could make it fire like an MG!  If you own a gun you should be well versed, and educated in the law not only to protect yourself by knowing your rights, but as a good citizen of the USA the freest country on earth!

So, if you just have to have a M16 BCG in your AR-15 to make yourself feel cool or because you find it performs better by all means DO IT YOU CAN AND THATS THE LAW!

Thomas  

In fact with a further search even some of the HK clones have the 3 positions S/F/A with a pin preventing Auto fire.  All of this can be read on HKpro.com.  

Plan and simple though people don't go making a MG, unless you happen to be legally able to do so or operate one ie a LEO/Fed etc.  Their is very few practical situations where full auto would even gain an advantage over SA.  In fact all of the LEOs I know weather they shoot ARs or MP5s etc have their guns configured for SA fire.  A quote from one of them "FA screw that We CANNOT AFFORD TO SPRAY AND PRAY, AND EVERY SHOT MUST BE PLANNED AND AIMED, SO NO ONE IS HURT BY MISTAKE!"  Know the law so you don't break the law, but don't make even more rules for yourself out of ignorance!

Originally Posted By 1LSWON: Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA: BCWMFG, If you are going to post lies, I suggest you not post in this forum or this thread again. I suspect you are not a manufacturer nor that you own a "registered rifle" given your obvious lack of knowledge and inability to read this tacked thread in its entirety.   Example I'm a huge H&K guy, and own many H&Ks.  Well the funny thing is up until a few years ago all H&K lowers/trigger packs were "MG style".  What I mean is the S/F trigger pack was the same as the S/A/B trigger pack.  So that made for different rules regarding H&Ks specifically.  For example If someone were to own an old H&K 91 (G3), and it is S/F, and only functions in that manner.  But on the lower it has S/F/A, only it is a pictogram.  However even though it has a "MG LOWER/TRIGGER PACK" there is a pin welded between F/A that prevents auto from being selected, and that’s how it came from H&K, the only other difference is the front of SA receivers had to have the dog ears cut off to show the difference, but that was purely cosmetic.  That gun is perfectly legal for anyone to own, and is not a BATF item.  Now to wrap this up H&K was different because they made both their semi and auto lowers the same, since then that has changed, but there is specific information in the ATF legislation about old style H&K lowers and trigger packs.  These days H&K refers to its FA lowers and trigger packs as FBI style, and there are differences between their FA and SA parts.  IF ANYONE HAS ANY MORE? S REGUARDING THIS MATTER SPECIFICLLY REFER TO HKPRO.COM THAT WAS MY SOURCE< AND THEY HAVE ALL OF THE ATF REGS. POSTED. Thomas

HUH??? I own a HK91, HK93, and HK94 that I bought new in the 70/80's, and they all have a semi-auto trigger pack and semi-auto housing. The front area of the trigger pack where the full-auto disconnecter goes is milled away and the housing has a metal block welded in the front of the housing so a full-auto trigger pack cannot be inserted into the housing. The trigger housing is attached to the receiver via a lip instead of a pinned hinge. Also, all of the trigger group housings are marked either 0 and 1, or S and F. Are you talking about the "G3 semi-auto" and the 1966 HK41 that just a few hundred were imported in the 60's?

Link to details on G3 semi-auto and HK41

Yes I made the point about the ears being ground off.  I have seen SAs with the plate and without, and both were legal.  Most of them just have the FA setting ground off or filled in, but on the ones I have seen/owned most of the time it is still faintly visable.  Your saying what I was trying to get out quickly at work, but my point was I have seen them both ways.  Both ways were legal for the time period they were produced.  The G3 that I have seen the most was a 1968.  It only appeared to have the ears cut off.  Point being the ones I have seen with the "MG" style trigger packs were not functioning MGs, and were never sold as such.  Many of the LEO MP5s I have seen also had a mix of lower styles.  The other point was with the HK stuff the lines blur, but know one that I know of has been busted for having a SA HK with a FA style lower/trigger pack.  The comparison was to how a M16 BCG by itself soes not effect its SA status.  Sorry if I was unclear I was just noting that the AR series are not the only weapons that suffer from murky wording.  I hope this clears up your questions.  

Are you talking about the "G3 semi-auto" and the 1966 HK41 that just a few hundred were imported in the 60's?

Yes actually.  Sorry about that.  Alot more have made it over as well of that same ventage, but they were brought over as some other bs mainly from Africa.  No large dealers, but they pop up at gun shows, and look like they have been ridden hard and put up wet lol.  The MP5s I'm not real sure when they were produced, but most are owned by LEOs.  They are SA, but have the burst/FA markings clearly visable, but a "dowel" pin is welded between the settings.

Originally Posted By NAM: So, We've got one educated No. We've got one unexplained no, and one "yes it's being done". Anyone else have any thoughts/ proof? My interpretation, althought probably wrong, was that if the part you ass causes the weapon to function as an Auto, it would be illegal. So, An auto sear? illegal. Auto fire control parts? illegal. But i honestly don't see how an M16 bolt carrier would make your gun a full auto. might make it a slam fire easier, but not a full auto in itself. Thoughts?

The heavier carrier group would make chambering speed slower & thus give the firing pin less energy & thus slam fires less likely.  

Sorry if someone already said this.  

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: Considering how many LEO's out there don't know the difference between pre-ban features and post ban features. I surely doubt they know the difference between an auto bolt carrier or a semi one!

IF the ATF gets an anyomous tip from some asshole who doesn't like guns & doesn't like you, they'll know the M16 carrier.

Don't know if that's illegal though.  

Originally Posted By NAM: <center><table width=85% border=0><tr><td width=100% class=textBody><hr height=1px color=black noshade>Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA: Dano, However, if I understand what you are saying, the M16 bolt, for the reasons you state, will allow FA.  If this is true, I am not sure either way, then your point is taken and completely consistent with the Federal Code section, which btw should be the gravamen of all these discussions.<hr height=1px color=black noshade> He fails to mention one thing. An AR-15 WILL NOT fire full auto (slam fire) with an M16 bolt carrier. In order for this situation to be even remotely possible one must first remove the disconnector. IF you keep the disconnector in place, there will be no possibility of slam firing. Therefore, an M16 carrier would not make your AR-15 a fully automatic rifle.

You are confusing slam fire & follow through.  Slamfire is the inertia of the firing pin setting off the primer when the weapon snaps into battery.  Follow through is when the hammer falls behind the carrier & hits the firing pin as the weapon goes into battery.  Follow Trough only works w/ certain timing resulting from relative spring tensions & masses & only if the disconnector is broke/removed, & is very dangerous w/ high pressure round b/c of possibility of out of battery ignition.  

My bushmaster XM15 carbine came w/ a carrier that doesn't really shroud the firing pin so that hammer won't snag on the firing pin if it isn't retained by the disconnector.  My SP1 was like that.  The hammer would get snagged on the firing pin if it wasn't retained by the disconnector (or the trigger).  I had an AR pistol.  It was the same as the bushy.  

height=8

Originally Posted By rightwingnut: height=8 Originally Posted By NAM: So, We've got one educated No. We've got one unexplained no, and one "yes it's being done". Anyone else have any thoughts/ proof? My interpretation, althought probably wrong, was that if the part you ass causes the weapon to function as an Auto, it would be illegal. So, An auto sear? illegal. Auto fire control parts? illegal. But i honestly don't see how an M16 bolt carrier would make your gun a full auto. might make it a slam fire easier, but not a full auto in itself. Thoughts? The heavier carrier group would make chambering speed slower & thus give the firing pin less energy & thus slam fires less likely.   Sorry if someone already said this.

I have not read it if they did, but that was what I was thinking.  

Usually, manufacturer will make a note if it's a NFA item. Noveske,  LMT and CMMG websites does not mention it either.

Originally Posted By m60308nato: Any m16 parts in an ar15 rifle is illegal and makes it a machine gun, weather it fires more then one shot per trigger pull is irrelevant. .

BULLSHIT!!!

This silly thread still going on?

Tell you what. Anyone that has ANY M16 bolt carriers they want to get rid of because they are too scary, send em' to me, problem solved.

Also I will take :
                        M16 Bolts
                       M16 Buffers
                       M16 barrels
                       M16 firing pins
                       M16 Handgards
                       M16 buttstocks
                       M16 ....


Oh hell, ANY M16 part except the Fire control group and lower receiver, I don't want those.

Any other part, bring it on!

Originally Posted By tenmikemike: Originally Posted By m60308nato: Any m16 parts in an ar15 rifle is illegal and makes it a machine gun, weather it fires more then one shot per trigger pull is irrelevant. . BULLSHIT!!!

Yeah if he wasn't being sarcastic, he pretty much is spouting bs.
Although it is true that M16 FCG parts are verboten.

Originally Posted By _DR: This silly thread still going on? Tell you what. Anyone that has ANY M16 bolt carriers they want to get rid of because they are too scary, send em' to me, problem solved. Also I will take :                         M16 Bolts                        M16 Buffers                        M16 barrels                        M16 firing pins                        M16 Handgards                        M16 buttstocks                        M16 .... Oh hell, ANY M16 part except the Fire control group and lower receiver, I don't want those.Any other part, bring it on!

I'll take them!! I'll even pay the taxes and shipping.

Originally Posted By shrikefan: Originally Posted By _DR: This silly thread still going on? Tell you what. Anyone that has ANY M16 bolt carriers they want to get rid of because they are too scary, send em' to me, problem solved. Also I will take :                         M16 Bolts                        M16 Buffers                        M16 barrels                        M16 firing pins                        M16 Handgards                        M16 buttstocks                        M16 .... Oh hell, ANY M16 part except the Fire control group and lower receiver, I don't want those.Any other part, bring it on! I'll take them!! I'll even pay the taxes and shipping.

Class 3 dealer, eh?  Wish I could afford to play with the cool toys again!

i bought a complete CMMG carbine and it came with an m16 bolt carrier!

ealry in this topic someone said that dpms sold 1000s of illegal rifles because they thought they were legal. that's scary. i bought my gun at a gunshow, but it was a cmmg table. not just some guy selling his own rifles. it came with the m16 bolt carrier. i guess i will have to research all the differences between m16 parts and ar15 parts to be safe. i'm so new to all of this, so much of it is still jibberish to me. i just wanted a cool gun to enjoy. didn't know i might have to worry about the mfg selling me something that was illegal. right now, as far as i now, it is only the bolt carrier that is m16. and my gun is definately NOT fully automatuc. it has no auto fire option on the safety/fire switch/selector... err... whatever it's called.

CMMG, Noveske, LMT, CMT and BCM sells M16 bolt carriers without the necessary paperworks. Are they wrong?

I bet, these companies have better lawyers than we do. And I bet, they have put the all the rulings under a microscope and KNOW that is it perfectly LEGAL and that's the LAW.

Once again, the presence of M-16 parts DOES NOT MAKE AN M-16!!

BOlt carrier, trigger, Hammer, Disconnector, safety are all legal to have in your posession, AND IN YOUR RIFLE AS LONG AS IT FIRES ONLY ONE ROUND PER PULL OF THE TRIGGER.

How many times does this need to be said?

HOwever, a lack of M-16 parts in an AR-15 type firearm that fires more than one round per pull of the trigger is SILL A MACHINE GUN.

Steve,

does all this jibe with ar15 vs m16 parts NOT LEGAL. Seems to settle this debate.