Site Notices
8/22/2014 4:19:20 PM
Page:  / 4
Author
Message
traderpats
Offline
Posts: 519
Feedback: 100% (11)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 10:12:23 PM
Hard to tell from the picture but is that quartz veins in the rock?


NSFJojo
Offline
Posts: 2404
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 10:13:52 PM
[Last Edit: 2/5/2010 10:14:57 PM by NSFJojo]
Originally Posted By Friiguy:

Originally Posted By NSFJojo:
Originally Posted By Friiguy:
tag for pics

ETA: Couldnt have been much of an exploaration to have 30 minutes round trip and 25 minutes between 'leaving' and being 'back'.


You do realize it's fucking creepy and sleestaks and cthulu and shit live underground right? I wouldn't even put my fucking hand in the goddamn thing and my flashlight holding wench sucked at keeping the entrance illuminated to make sure they didn't pull me in. I got the pics, I got the fuck out.


You didn't even go alone?

What type of Arfcommer are you?




I brought a small woman to hold my flashlight so I could take the pictures, otherwise, I may never had been found alive. Besides, if it caved in I could feast on her body for like at least a couple hours. Small women = SHTF food supply.
smokiexd45
Prepared American
Offline
Posts: 2726
Feedback: 100% (13)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 10:15:48 PM
tagging this one since I never got to see what was at the bottom of the other well/cave
Sleep on top of the trailer with a loaded gun or two. If someone tries to gain entry, blow a hole in the top of their head to let the stupid out....cmjohnson


..-. ..- -.-. -.-/--- -... .- -- .-
DSRV
So....what goes here?
Offline
Posts: 1871
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 10:16:13 PM
When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves..
NSFJojo
Offline
Posts: 2405
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 10:31:13 PM


Told you there were sleestaks and shit!

CEFPARTS
The futures uncertain and the end is always near.
Offline
Posts: 997
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 11:14:56 PM


Kill it with FIRE then nuke it from orbit!!
Fear and Dispair...instead of Hope and Change.
CoreyR
Offline
Posts: 2722
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 11:17:09 PM
Originally Posted By Friiguy:

Originally Posted By NSFJojo:
Originally Posted By Friiguy:
tag for pics

ETA: Couldnt have been much of an exploaration to have 30 minutes round trip and 25 minutes between 'leaving' and being 'back'.


You do realize it's fucking creepy and sleestaks and cthulu and shit live underground right? I wouldn't even put my fucking hand in the goddamn thing and my flashlight holding wench sucked at keeping the entrance illuminated to make sure they didn't pull me in. I got the pics, I got the fuck out.


You didn't even go alone?

What type of Arfcommer are you?



A living one.
BUCC_Guy
One shot, one miss.
Offline
Posts: 12513
Feedback: 100% (35)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 11:20:01 PM
Anyone with something dangling between their legs would have dived in head first and started exploring.


- BG
Student 1: "Mr. [BUCC_Guy], can you do a cart-wheel?"
Me: "I can do anything you want, and more."
Student 2: "Except attract girls."
rykn0w
Cthulhu '12
Offline
Posts: 10781
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 11:22:02 PM


SALT SUCKERS!!!!! RUN
Nov. 4th 2008 The day America died.
AR-10
Eye don't know
Offline
Posts: 7976
Feedback: 100% (25)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 11:34:30 PM
I'm in for the pics...and the other stuff.
jman9599
Offline
Posts: 239
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 11:42:13 PM
Originally Posted By prov:
Don't end up like Ted the caver


That's messed up. I guess Ted never made it out.
SRM
BINGO!
Offline
Posts: 4433
Feedback: 100% (12)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/5/2010 11:57:13 PM
It looks like the portal of an exploration drift. Do your local mine rescue team a favor. Stay out and stay alive. Just remember, if it is too dangerous to recover the body, we leave it there for eternity.

SRM
"Don't wrestle with pigs. Everyone gets dirty and the pigs enjoy it too much."

"It is easier to get forgiveness than permission"

"Laid back and lethal"
Dumpster_Baby
Offline
Posts: 3347
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/6/2010 12:08:59 AM
DKing
Member State Bar of Georgia & ARFCOM
Instructor
Offline
Posts: 15574
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/6/2010 12:43:42 AM
Mobile IN

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Originally Posted By BookHound:
I think this is EXCELLENT advice!
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
I care what he thinks, he's a smart motherfucker.
www.kingslawoffice.com
NSFJojo
Offline
Posts: 2406
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/6/2010 1:59:19 AM
Originally Posted By SRM:
It looks like the portal of an exploration drift. Do your local mine rescue team a favor. Stay out and stay alive. Just remember, if it is too dangerous to recover the body, we leave it there for eternity.

SRM


Fuck no, tomorrow the preliminary day light excavation begins and the measurements taken for the carpet. I'm keeping this cave. It's mine dammit.
BatcaveSouth
Online
Posts: 4089
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/6/2010 2:03:16 AM
fadedsun
Wanted war criminal from texas
Offline
Posts: 15168
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/6/2010 2:09:54 AM
Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
Sure go ahead, what could go wrong?






shoot it twice in the face. What movie is that from?

The cave and the descentare two freaky cave movies
Posted from my iPhone


Confucious say:"Do not break into house of man who have gun for every occasion"
SeanTX
panis et circenses
Offline
Posts: 1221
Feedback: 100% (13)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/6/2010 2:18:12 AM

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
Sure go ahead, what could go wrong?






shoot it twice in the face. What movie is that from?

The cave and the descentare two freaky cave movies

Check the link. I'm guessing The Decent or #2. The first one blows. If there is a second one I'm sure it delivers the suck in spades as well.

The Caver Journal linked above pissed me off more than my ex-wife. If you haven't read it, don't.

killswitch
Offline
Posts: 907
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/6/2010 2:47:46 AM
/not sure if fent...
NSFJojo
Offline
Posts: 2412
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 5:08:11 PM
BTT for update
kozaki
Offline
Posts: 680
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 6:37:21 PM
Watch out for these guys:



TecRsq
Member
Offline
Posts: 1681
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 7:12:26 PM
Watch out for hydrogen sulfide and other deadly gasses, no signs of plant or animal life would be a clue.
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- (Thomas Jefferson)
TecRsq
Member
Offline
Posts: 1682
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 7:13:17 PM

Originally Posted By kozaki:
Watch out for these guys:

http://i47.tinypic.com/dzxtaq.gif



"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- (Thomas Jefferson)
WildApple
Offline
Posts: 3008
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 7:26:20 PM
Originally Posted By TecRsq:

Originally Posted By kozaki:
Watch out for these guys:

http://i47.tinypic.com/dzxtaq.gif





Win_88
Insanity We Trust.
Offline
Posts: 7663
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 7:35:49 PM
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Watch out for these guys:

http://i47.tinypic.com/dzxtaq.gif





Anybody can make a New Years resolution.. It doesn't mean you have to keep it. Just pass it on to someone else...
hammerkill
Member
Offline
Posts: 1877
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 7:45:18 PM
I've crept into some old coal mines. Bad air is called "black damp"
strycnine
Fruitcake
Offline
Posts: 2859
Feedback: 100% (11)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 7:50:27 PM
New B.O.L.?
www.usgunandgame.com
paul463
Offline
Posts: 1023
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 7:50:54 PM
[Last Edit: 2/8/2010 1:28:16 PM by paul463]

Here's a straight down shot of a mine shaft about a half mile from my house. It's about 75 feet to water and 4300 feet to the bottom. Iron mine, closed in 1963.

And another of a different chamber in the same shaft.

phurba
Oldest child prostitute at ACORN
Offline
Posts: 1283
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 7:51:31 PM
Originally Posted By hammerkill:
I've crept into some old coal mines. Bad air is called "black damp"


Bad air is rare but easy to detect. Bring a good bic lighter with you. Inside the cave, flick it. If you've got a normal looking flame, good to go. If the flame is extremely weak or hovers above the lighter, you've got bad air. I've been caving for years and have never encountered bad air.
GLADIO
Offline
Posts: 700
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/7/2010 8:12:30 PM

Originally Posted By paul463:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s48/paulz463/DSCN0134.jpg
Here's a straight down shot of a mine shaft about a half mile from my house. It's about 75 feet to water and
4300 feet to the bottom. Iron mine, closed in 1963.


Holy hell.
That's where the demons come out from.
SRM
BINGO!
Offline
Posts: 4435
Feedback: 100% (12)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 12:06:22 AM
Originally Posted By phurba:
Originally Posted By hammerkill:
I've crept into some old coal mines. Bad air is called "black damp"


Bad air is rare but easy to detect. Bring a good bic lighter with you. Inside the cave, flick it. If you've got a normal looking flame, good to go. If the flame is extremely weak or hovers above the lighter, you've got bad air. I've been caving for years and have never encountered bad air.


"Damps" are from coal country. I believe black damp is the residual from blasting, but I'd have to look it up to be sure. Never done much coal rescue.

Repeat after me.....Mines are not caves. An exposed flame (or better, aflame safety lamp) isn't a bad idea, especially for caves where the most common problem is oxygen deficiency. Exposed flames in old coal mines may lead to a methane explosion. Other sources of "bad air" not typically found in caves

Hydrogen sulfide smells like rotten eggs at first. At around 5ppm it will paralyze your sense of smell. Death occurs soon after.
Carbon Monoxide due to the incomplete combustion of organics. In high enough concentrations, it will cause instantaneous rigor mortis.
How about gases dissolved in the water? You are fine going in but can't leave.

How is the ground? Supported? Sounded? Scaled? Any old powder or primers around? What is the pH of the water? What are the minerals?

Miners cut both vertical and horizontal openings. To control ventilation, oldtimers may have thrown a piece of tin over a shaft. Over the years dust and debris have settled on a now nearly rotten piece of metal that looks like the ground. Don't worry, you probably won't feel anything after the first impact.

Do you really want to die in there?

In my experience, rescues of tourists in old mines are either body recoveries or the start of a new cemetary.

Again, stay out, stay alive.

SRM




"Don't wrestle with pigs. Everyone gets dirty and the pigs enjoy it too much."

"It is easier to get forgiveness than permission"

"Laid back and lethal"
smokiexd45
Prepared American
Offline
Posts: 2732
Feedback: 100% (13)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 12:21:52 AM
Being fairly shallow at the entrance, did either of you check for animal prints in the dirt?

Might be something sleeping in there, ya never know.
Sleep on top of the trailer with a loaded gun or two. If someone tries to gain entry, blow a hole in the top of their head to let the stupid out....cmjohnson


..-. ..- -.-. -.-/--- -... .- -- .-
NSFJojo
Offline
Posts: 2413
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 2:29:24 AM
Originally Posted By smokiexd45:
Being fairly shallow at the entrance, did either of you check for animal prints in the dirt?

Might be something sleeping in there, ya never know.


Nope, I think this cave just needs to be cleared of spiders and I have my own new clubhouse.
Silly_Look
This too shall pass...
Offline
Posts: 4944
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 2:38:56 AM
[span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By SRM:

<snip>

blah, blah, blah.

</snip>



Go for it. He's the kind of guy who tells you why it's bad to drink and drive and have sex without protection with cheap hookers.
If I had a train, I'd put a really loud fucking horn on it, and abuse it like a retard before all intersections.... day or night.
Gosu
대한민국
Offline
Posts: 1226
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 2:42:54 AM
can't believe no one noticed the creepy face yet...

Sique
Member
Offline
Posts: 2327
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 2:45:48 AM

Originally Posted By paul463:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s48/paulz463/DSCN0134.jpg
Here's a straight down shot of a mine shaft about a half mile from my house. It's about 75 feet to water and 4300 feet to the bottom. Iron mine, closed in 1963.

That's pretty cool. So they just leave it open like that?
Russkie
AK Aficionado
Offline
Posts: 3258
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 2:53:30 AM

Originally Posted By prov:
Don't end up like Ted the caver

That story scares the shit out of me
To Barack Hussein 0bama, his administration and, all who support him....
I spit in your collective face. Fuck You All.
Masha
Lemon of Troy
Offline
Posts: 3670
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 2:57:27 AM
There's some great line in the movie "Deep Blue Sea" about rich white people always coming up with new, completely unnecessary ways to get themselves killed.
"...I ask him if they have a chainsaw I can borrow, because I can turn it into four pieces that don't exceed 25 lbs. He was horrified, and didn't have a chainsaw." 11/01/2009
Russkie
AK Aficionado
Offline
Posts: 3260
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 3:02:33 AM

Originally Posted By paul463:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s48/paulz463/DSCN0134.jpg
Here's a straight down shot of a mine shaft about a half mile from my house. It's about 75 feet to water and 4300 feet to the bottom. Iron mine, closed in 1963.

that's fuckin horrifying!

Image what is under all that water.....
To Barack Hussein 0bama, his administration and, all who support him....
I spit in your collective face. Fuck You All.
JohnMikerson
Member
Offline
Posts: 688
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 3:04:42 AM
Originally Posted By Russkie:

Originally Posted By prov:
Don't end up like Ted the caver

That story scares the shit out of me


What the fuck happens, I cant finish reading it I'm a big baby
ALWAYS THINK FORFEITURE
ratlover232
Offline
Posts: 3
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 3:30:26 AM
[Last Edit: 2/8/2010 4:13:59 AM by ratlover232]
As a fellow ARFCOMMER, I'm suprised noone has mentioned the most important thing about caving! Bring a gun with a flashlight! That way, if the creepy crawlers come to get ya, you've got some firepower to level the playing field. :D

ETA: After reading through the Ted the Caver story, all the pictures in this thread are way creepier than before. Do not want.
COZ
Freedom Isn't Free
Offline
Posts: 3900
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 4:31:55 AM

Originally Posted By JohnMikerson:
Originally Posted By Russkie:

Originally Posted By prov:
Don't end up like Ted the caver

That story scares the shit out of me


What the fuck happens, I cant finish reading it I'm a big baby


HOLY SHIT THAT WAS A FRIGGIN CREEPY READ! and it doesn't have any climax or ending? WTF! I get totally freaked out about the parts where the only movement through the tiny passages is pushing with his toes while letting the air out of his body to make it thinner! FUNK DAT! WOW, that was like a great Steven King novel. I sure would like to know what else happend.
"Our enemies are brutal, but they are no match for the United States of America, and they are no match for the men and women of the United States military." President G.W. Bush

www.woundedwarriorproject.org
paul463
Offline
Posts: 1024
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 8:30:07 AM
Originally Posted By Sique:

Originally Posted By paul463:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s48/paulz463/DSCN0134.jpg
Here's a straight down shot of a mine shaft about a half mile from my house. It's about 75 feet to water and 4300 feet to the bottom. Iron mine, closed in 1963.

That's pretty cool. So they just leave it open like that?


No, it's capped with concrete. But there is a 6" diameter pipe through the cap, I just stuck my camera through it and snapped a bunch of pics. The bars on the upperleft of the picture are to the underground entrance coming from the old change house, its also blocked with a cinderblock wall. I've been into that building a a few times since I was a kid and it's just too damn creepy for me.
phurba
Oldest child prostitute at ACORN
Offline
Posts: 1289
Feedback: 100% (6)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 2:53:56 PM
Originally Posted By COZ:

Originally Posted By JohnMikerson:
Originally Posted By Russkie:

Originally Posted By prov:
Don't end up like Ted the caver

That story scares the shit out of me


What the fuck happens, I cant finish reading it I'm a big baby


HOLY SHIT THAT WAS A FRIGGIN CREEPY READ! and it doesn't have any climax or ending? WTF! I get totally freaked out about the parts where the only movement through the tiny passages is pushing with his toes while letting the air out of his body to make it thinner! FUNK DAT! WOW, that was like a great Steven King novel. I sure would like to know what else happend.


Actually it's very much like an HP Lovecraft story.

Glad to see that Ted the Caver is back. It used to be hosted on its own domain and it expired a couple of years ago and disappeared.
ARmory04
Offline
Posts: 2003
Feedback: 100% (27)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 3:01:47 PM
Originally Posted By SRM:
Originally Posted By phurba:
Originally Posted By hammerkill:
I've crept into some old coal mines. Bad air is called "black damp"


Bad air is rare but easy to detect. Bring a good bic lighter with you. Inside the cave, flick it. If you've got a normal looking flame, good to go. If the flame is extremely weak or hovers above the lighter, you've got bad air. I've been caving for years and have never encountered bad air.


"Damps" are from coal country. I believe black damp is the residual from blasting, but I'd have to look it up to be sure. Never done much coal rescue.

Repeat after me.....Mines are not caves. An exposed flame (or better, aflame safety lamp) isn't a bad idea, especially for caves where the most common problem is oxygen deficiency. Exposed flames in old coal mines may lead to a methane explosion. Other sources of "bad air" not typically found in caves

Hydrogen sulfide smells like rotten eggs at first. At around 5ppm it will paralyze your sense of smell. Death occurs soon after.
Carbon Monoxide due to the incomplete combustion of organics. In high enough concentrations, it will cause instantaneous rigor mortis.
How about gases dissolved in the water? You are fine going in but can't leave.

How is the ground? Supported? Sounded? Scaled? Any old powder or primers around? What is the pH of the water? What are the minerals?

Miners cut both vertical and horizontal openings. To control ventilation, oldtimers may have thrown a piece of tin over a shaft. Over the years dust and debris have settled on a now nearly rotten piece of metal that looks like the ground. Don't worry, you probably won't feel anything after the first impact.

Do you really want to die in there?

In my experience, rescues of tourists in old mines are either body recoveries or the start of a new cemetary.

Again, stay out, stay alive.

SRM






That seems like sound advice, even for GD.....
Meadowmuffin
Offline
Posts: 5303
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 3:11:23 PM
Caves can be very dangerous due to: cave ins, bad air, falling timbers, snakes, nasty people hiding stuff, water and silt leading to quicksand conditions. Do not go alone. You could be killed.
Meadowmuffin
Offline
Posts: 5304
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 3:13:09 PM
Originally Posted By SRM:
Originally Posted By phurba:
Originally Posted By hammerkill:
I've crept into some old coal mines. Bad air is called "black damp"


Bad air is rare but easy to detect. Bring a good bic lighter with you. Inside the cave, flick it. If you've got a normal looking flame, good to go. If the flame is extremely weak or hovers above the lighter, you've got bad air. I've been caving for years and have never encountered bad air.


"Damps" are from coal country. I believe black damp is the residual from blasting, but I'd have to look it up to be sure. Never done much coal rescue.

Repeat after me.....Mines are not caves. An exposed flame (or better, aflame safety lamp) isn't a bad idea, especially for caves where the most common problem is oxygen deficiency. Exposed flames in old coal mines may lead to a methane explosion. Other sources of "bad air" not typically found in caves

Hydrogen sulfide smells like rotten eggs at first. At around 5ppm it will paralyze your sense of smell. Death occurs soon after.
Carbon Monoxide due to the incomplete combustion of organics. In high enough concentrations, it will cause instantaneous rigor mortis.
How about gases dissolved in the water? You are fine going in but can't leave.

How is the ground? Supported? Sounded? Scaled? Any old powder or primers around? What is the pH of the water? What are the minerals?

Miners cut both vertical and horizontal openings. To control ventilation, oldtimers may have thrown a piece of tin over a shaft. Over the years dust and debris have settled on a now nearly rotten piece of metal that looks like the ground. Don't worry, you probably won't feel anything after the first impact.

Do you really want to die in there?

In my experience, rescues of tourists in old mines are either body recoveries or the start of a new cemetary.

Again, stay out, stay alive.

SRM







Way better said than mine.
floridahunter07
now with less bulletproof
Offline
Posts: 1988
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 3:26:10 PM
Originally Posted By COZ:

Originally Posted By JohnMikerson:
Originally Posted By Russkie:

Originally Posted By prov:
Don't end up like Ted the caver

That story scares the shit out of me


What the fuck happens, I cant finish reading it I'm a big baby


HOLY SHIT THAT WAS A FRIGGIN CREEPY READ! and it doesn't have any climax or ending? WTF! I get totally freaked out about the parts where the only movement through the tiny passages is pushing with his toes while letting the air out of his body to make it thinner! FUNK DAT! WOW, that was like a great Steven King novel. I sure would like to know what else happend.


Either that was a great prank, or holy fuck. Either way it was really creepy.
Thanks to scotchymcdrinkerbean for my membership.

“Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude.” - Thomas Jefferson
Sique
Member
Offline
Posts: 2328
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 3:48:44 PM
[Last Edit: 2/8/2010 3:48:57 PM by Sique]
We used to have the paradise ice caves over here. I only viewed the main entrances sometime back in the 80's.

I went back later and they had a park ranger thug guarding the entrances. I'll bet they were pretty umm, "cool" to explore.
schizrade
255.255.255.257... The Chuck Norris Subnet
Offline
Posts: 10833
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 2/8/2010 3:52:25 PM
I know where that cave is, just be careful. Mt. Peavine and it's foothills were mined extensively in the 1850's-1880's. A lot of the holes are just test burrows and not timbered, which make them even more dangerous.
"I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy."
John Adams

“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design
Page:  / 4